VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: Colonel Panic on January 11, 2010, 04:56:24 am

Title: Windows 7
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 11, 2010, 04:56:24 am
It seems to be getting universally good reviews at the moment. The best Microsoft OS ever, what Vista should have been etc. And after a brief inspection at my local computer shop, I must admit it looks good.

Here's a question I've pondered recently. Supposing there was someone you knew who was looking to buy a new desktop PC and money wasn't a problem, so they could afford either a decent PC with Windows 7 Ultimate or a Mac with the latest OSX if they felt like it. How would you make the case for Vector (or any other version of Linux) to them?
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Deach on January 11, 2010, 05:49:37 am
Honestly, it would be pretty hard.  I don't have any experience with windows 7 but do have a mac.   You can give the usual speech about freedom of choice and stuff however "most" people want things "just to work".  I spend more time on my Vector laptop as my macbook because I want it to work.  I like the freedom of choice however to me money is an object.  In my experience of helping people keep their boxes going, most don't really care about what OS is on it, as long as they can turn it on, do what they want on it, and not have it "mess up" on it all the time.  These people however do have the money issue.  (not enough) 

Another thing is, people get set in their ways.  for some gaming people it's windows cause well it works with the games usually.  (out of the box).  You've asked a hard hard question in my opinion........
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 11, 2010, 06:32:42 am
I know it's a hard question, sorry :)

For me, the cheapness and the fact I can run it on an old machine is a key reason why I run Vector (and one or two other Linuxes), though I've also got used to being able to use different window managers (Fluxbox, fvwm etc.) which you can't do in Windows.

Face it, Windows is rotten value for money compared to any Linux distro I know of, and certainly compared to Vector. I don't know so much about Macs except that; a/ they tend to be expensive, in the UK at least, and b /  they have so intense a following that a high proportion of their users won't even consider using anything else.
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Deach on January 11, 2010, 06:41:25 am
Yes it's the money to me also.  However that being said..... I have a linux desktop I'm on more than anything.  (I have a debian distro on that right now and it's been that way for two years but.......as soon as I can learn more about how to move home to another partition and such I have no problem going to VL on it now I think)......I do have an Apple Macbook for some work related stuff (back up the blackberry).....and my old inspiron laptop that I'm just loving that it's going again. 

Yes macs even used are  expensive.  (henceforth the pc's with linux on them)  :)  I'd have to say most the mac "fanboys" as they're called are pretty dedicated.  (I'm not one of those obviously LOL).  I personally haven't run windows for some time now, and I like it that way.  I've distro hopped a bit on some laptops I've had and honestly I think I've found my home here at VL for those.  (working out some stuff yet including my own self induced problems). 
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 11, 2010, 07:13:59 am
There is or used to be a version of Linux that runs on Macs, Yellow Dog I think it's called. I've never tried Debian but used to belong to the Libranet forum; Libranet was based on Debian. It was a great pity that Libranet folded as that was a very promising Linux distro IMO.

Yeah, I've more or less settled on Vector (and Puppy); anything else is either too much trouble to set up or won't run in 256 MB of RAM.
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Daniel on January 11, 2010, 07:47:42 am
There is or used to be a version of Linux that runs on Macs, Yellow Dog I think it's called.

I think VL will run on newer intel-based Macs and there was also a variant of Slackware that I heard of (but can't remember the name of) that was designed for pre-intel Macs.
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Deach on January 11, 2010, 09:01:39 am
I may get a live cd and see what happens.  Honestly I usually use my mac for "mac things" and I'm familiar with how those things work.  Now, I'm not saying there isn't a linux eq program that I may not know about or how to work as well.  Personally I feel vector fills a specific niche.  The support here is nothing less than awesome, and honestly after two years of debian sid I'm bout ready for a change.  (although I must admit I've had very very few problems with it).  I honestly can't wait to get VL installed on my faster desktop.  It's at least a P4 hyperthread proc.....I don't own the latest and greatest (unless you count the macbook) of boxes here but I do have several older laptops that I fully plan on VL being the main OS.  So far I'm very very impressed with this distro. 

I"ve got a couple of old apple clamshell laptops, I tried getting different dirsto's to work on the Old G3's and just couldn't get them to go.  Maybe I'll try again.  I do have two G4 desktops one 733 mhz and one dual core 1gig machine, they are both still running the OSX OS.  I honestly think there'd be a following if someone got a decent build to work on the Older apples.  I tried Yellow Dog at one point and again couldn't get it to work right. 

Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: uelsk8s on January 11, 2010, 03:57:18 pm
The main development box I use for VL is an apple macpro.
I have a VL modified slackintosh on my g4 imac (slackintosh binaries + VL-noarch packages).
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Deach on January 11, 2010, 04:12:54 pm
I may have to hear more about this I'd love to get those clamshells going for the grand kids.......
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 11, 2010, 07:07:05 pm
Here's a question I've pondered recently. Supposing there was someone you knew who was looking to buy a new desktop PC and money wasn't a problem, so they could afford either a decent PC with Windows 7 Ultimate or a Mac with the latest OSX if they felt like it. How would you make the case for Vector (or any other version of Linux) to them?

I wouldn't make a case for "instead of." I'd suggest they set up a dual boot with Win 7 (I have an intense dislike for Apple). I'd suggest they give VL a good try especially for easy things like the Internet, where using Linux is much more pleasant. I'd suggest installing multi-platform applications like OpenOffce, SoftMaker Office, Gimp, Opera, Firefox, and Inkscape so that they cut the learning curve in half. A dual-boot sets up easily and enables the user to have a "safety net" of Windows for the Windows programs that they feel they must have.

I don't like evangelism of any kind, including Linux evangelism, and feel that Linux sells itself if the user is open to it. For a new user, I'd offer to install Linux and get everything set up. Once the system is configured, Linux is not at all hard to use, just different in some ways. Again, if the user has an open mind, it's not hard to manage Linux. If the user is reluctant, Linux will be resisted and most likely rejected. Many people do not like to learn anything new when it comes to computers.

I've always had dual boots on all my computers. I use VL far more often than any Windows, but sometimes I can't do something in Linux that I can do in Windows (I've just gone through that scenario for a holidy project I do each year. I'm *hoping* I can do it in Linux next year.).

Windows 7 is very nice and I like it better than earlier versions of Windows. But there's no chance that I'd switch from VL 6 Standard as my main OS.

Also, I wouldn't suggest they get Win 7 Ultimate, which costs a lot more for not much of use to most users. Home Premium is the version to get unless you need to join a domain or need 6 to 10 machines networked and active at the same time (5 is the limit for Home Premium). I would also suggest they get the 32-bit version of Win 7 rather than 64-bit unless they know they need to use more than 4 gigs of RAM, not just that it sounds like a nice idea in theory. With Win 7 32-bit their hardware is much more likely to work, so unless they know there are Win 7 or Vista 64 drivers for their hardware, they are better off with win 7 32 unless they don't mind getting replacements. 16-bit applications will not install or run under Win 7 64, including 32-bit applications that have 16-bit installers (yes, there are some). If they have some 16-bit oldies but goodies they will want to run, they'd have to install a virtual machine like VirtualBox  or Microsoft Virtual PC and install an earlier Windows in the vm and install the 16-bit apps there.

I have Win 7 Home Premium 32-bit installed on my Athlon 64 desktop listed in my sig. I bought it when it was on presale for $50 US last summer, figuring it would never be that cheap again. I have a dual boot with Win XP--actually, a quad boot as I also have VL 6 Deluxe and VL 6 Light on that computer. The Win 7 DVD offers both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions and I first installed Win 7 64. However, I couldn't sync my Sony Clie PDA with Palm Desktop because there is no 64-bit pseudo-SCSI driver for syncing, and that's a big loss for me. I also found that I have a few 16-bit programs I don't want to give up and I'd rather not have to set up a virtual machine for them. Since my motherboard does not support more than 4 gigs of RAM, I couldn't see that I'd gain many advantages from using Win 7 64--to say nothing of the fact that I don't have any 64-bit applications and I don't plan to buy any, given that I don't use Windows often. I've been quite happy with Win 7 on the infrequent occasions I've used it. Oh--I hadn't yet activated Win 7 64 when I removed it, so installing Win 7 32 presented no problems.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 12, 2010, 10:54:01 am
Granny Geek, thanks for that and a fair point too about preferring Windows 7 Home Premium to Ultimate.

What I'm getting at though is; do you reckon Vector would sell itself to a Windows user who may not have used anything else in the past? If so, would it be because of the speed or appearance compared to Windows (since Windows is now pretty stable) or security?
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Deach on January 12, 2010, 11:22:48 am
IMHO, it might be hard.  Granny Geek brings up a good point when she says about having herself (an experienced linux user) to go back to windows for some things.  Point being, If one has to boot their box to windows for a task, why reboot to linux.  While only 2 or so years into my linux tenure now, I still find myself going back to mac osx for some tasks.  Now then.............If the windows user only surfs the internet, does basic documents (or even more complex ones) and checks email and all.  I think it might be pretty easy to get the "security" thing out there.  I've converted more than one user that has called me for advise when their windows boxes come up with a "bug" of some sort. 

Honestly some of my easiest converts have been teenagers.  They've had less windows experience and they like the fact of the linux mystique???  I've actually goten a irate phone call from a parent that I helped their son with his laptop and put nix on it and his father couldn't "control" that and had an issue.  We did get that sorted out however.  (and nix still on the laptop).  Honestly brings me to why I came back to vector after trying it two years ago (about) and couldn't get it to work.  I am looking for a build I can put on the older/slower stuff so more people can be exposed to linux and the open source projects.  So far so good on my one test laptop and I'm working on a desktop also.
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 12, 2010, 12:44:15 pm
Thanks for your reply. I agree, teenagers seem to like Linux more than older people as they're not so resistant to anything new.

There's a case to be made for preferring open source software on principle, because you can always inspect the way it's put together and it has no secrets such as (conspiracy theory time) NSA back doors etc., but they're not likely to sway the average user.

I think on balance I'd just say Linux is cheaper, faster, probably more secure and easier on your hard drive so won't wear it out as quickly.
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Fragadelic on January 12, 2010, 12:50:53 pm
I think everyone is missing the point here.  When looking for a "tool" you need to know what job it is going to perform.  A hammer would not be very useful if you need pliers.


I guess the big question has nothing to do with money but everything to do with the intended use of the machine.

For standard browsing and office type stuff, any linux fits the bill quite well.

For modern fps gaming,etc it would have to be Windows.

For media related things like dvd creation,etc and all that multimedia stuff I guess the Mac would be the best choice.

Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Deach on January 12, 2010, 01:32:01 pm
I agree except about the money.  Sometimes it is.  I've helped multiple people get into old yardsale computers that otherwise they could never afford.  I cannot afford to buy all my grandkids nice shiny apples (or used for that matter) but I can possible get them some usable desktops, for what they generally do.  (and or with Vector actually maybe even a lap or two which here to for has been beyond their wildest dreams.  If you buy a yardsale computer that needs an OS and do "legal" windows it's a hundred bucks.  (xp home last I checked).  However throw nix on it and it's probably gonna work better for them in the long run, and no hundo and have a perfectly legal upgradable system.  To some I help out it's definitely about the money. (and honestly me too or I'd not have the fleet of computers that work I do). 

You're absolutely right about the "hammer/pliers" thing however.  Good anology. 
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Fragadelic on January 12, 2010, 02:14:40 pm
For those where money would be an issue, multimedia and gaming would be out of the question so it still really is about the intended use.

Recycling old pc's is great.  I do it all the time.

Folks are always asking me what kind of PC to buy and I always start by asking them what they want to do with it.  If budget is an issue for their intended use, then they really must wait until they have the budget as it would be utterly pointless spending money on something that doesn't meet your needs.

Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Deach on January 12, 2010, 04:03:17 pm
Yep.  What do you want it to do.  My first question too. (or something along those lines).  I'm surprised lately about the younger set that really isn't into gaming that much. (maybe just my circle of people).  Ya if you're a hard core gamer you're gonna have to wait for that high end box with Microsoft on the front.  I guess now with all those games on face book some kids are just playing those too.  (that doesn't seem to take that much of a box).  Intended purpose is very important I totally agree...
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 13, 2010, 01:51:55 am
It depends what kind of games and multimedia you want too. Even a 5 year old PC will play videos, DVDs and CDs quite comfortably and also some games (don't expect it to play Warcraft though).
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: Bjrnarlinux on January 14, 2010, 11:51:53 am
hmmm. I guess, personally, i wouldn't try to sell anyone Vector unless their hardware is really old or they're interested in learning how Linux works without going to the extremes of Linux from Scratch. For a general desktop user with a decent box( Most Norwegians have quite powerful boxes) i would probably stick Ubuntu on it. It is safe, well supported, does it's job well, looks both distinctive and quite good in later releases and there's very little probability that a someone will mess it up in a big way. The downside to this is bloat compared to some other Linux distros( Vector as an example).

 Vector is by no means a very advanced distro and has some of these advantages in some degree, but is more transparent and for a lot of task, IMO, more techy. This is also why i love it. I've messed it up alot of times, left it, fixed it and came back for more. Vector has learned me a lot about my computer. But for a general user this can be quite intimidating.

The biggest selling point for Linux in Norway, IMO, is it's tendency to function well longer than a typical Windows box. Many people by a new computer when a new release of Windows is out, if not more often. Most people don't know how to clean their install of all the cruft(malware, viruses, spyware, replicated dependencies and so forth) that a Windows box accumulates over time. In Linux this i generally not a problem. My own Vector lappy is in Norway quite old, but in a global perspective it's a very new and powerful computer( it's on its fourth year now). Vector runs faster on it than the original XP did and can perform a good number of processes at the same time. My father, by contrast, owns two laptops and is considering getting a desktop. His oldest has kept its XP install all its life and is now very slow, useless for most tasks other than simple web browsing( and is rapidly getting useless for that too). His newest is a Vista machine more powerful than any of my three machines( all laptops BTW) but performs worse than my oldest these days. All because of Windows faults. I don't expect this to change with 7.

This is a very nice vector of attack as it were. I'm installing a lot of cross platform software on my fathers computers, hoping one day to wipe Windows away and install Ubuntu( or some other distro) on them. It's a slow process though. Another selling point is better security.

Don't know if this is a useful perspective or even relative or coherent most of the time, but it's my two NoKs on the subject.
Title: Re: Windows 7
Post by: rbistolfi on January 14, 2010, 01:48:55 pm
hmmm. I guess, personally, i wouldn't try to sell anyone Vector unless their hardware is really old or they're interested in learning how Linux works without going to the extremes of Linux from Scratch. For a general desktop user with a decent box( Most Norwegians have quite powerful boxes) i would probably stick Ubuntu on it. It is safe, well supported, does it's job well, looks both distinctive and quite good in later releases and there's very little probability that a someone will mess it up in a big way. The downside to this is bloat compared to some other Linux distros( Vector as an example).

 Vector is by no means a very advanced distro and has some of these advantages in some degree, but is more transparent and for a lot of task, IMO, more techy. This is also why i love it. I've messed it up alot of times, left it, fixed it and came back for more. Vector has learned me a lot about my computer. But for a general user this can be quite intimidating.

The biggest selling point for Linux in Norway, IMO, is it's tendency to function well longer than a typical Windows box. Many people by a new computer when a new release of Windows is out, if not more often. Most people don't know how to clean their install of all the cruft(malware, viruses, spyware, replicated dependencies and so forth) that a Windows box accumulates over time. In Linux this i generally not a problem. My own Vector lappy is in Norway quite old, but in a global perspective it's a very new and powerful computer( it's on its fourth year now). Vector runs faster on it than the original XP did and can perform a good number of processes at the same time. My father, by contrast, owns two laptops and is considering getting a desktop. His oldest has kept its XP install all its life and is now very slow, useless for most tasks other than simple web browsing( and is rapidly getting useless for that too). His newest is a Vista machine more powerful than any of my three machines( all laptops BTW) but performs worse than my oldest these days. All because of Windows faults. I don't expect this to change with 7.

This is a very nice vector of attack as it were. I'm installing a lot of cross platform software on my fathers computers, hoping one day to wipe Windows away and install Ubuntu( or some other distro) on them. It's a slow process though. Another selling point is better security.

Don't know if this is a useful perspective or even relative or coherent most of the time, but it's my two NoKs on the subject.

I would be very interested in knowing what is intimidating in Vector for you, would be really useful information.