VectorLinux

The nuts and bolts => Software General => Topic started by: davidlondonuk on January 18, 2011, 10:34:51 am

Title: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: davidlondonuk on January 18, 2011, 10:34:51 am
Hi,

I am using VL 6 std gold, I will probably upgrade to soho to get the newer libs. Is it possible to compile xfce 4.8 for soho and will it work with VL 6 soho if I do?

Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: sledgehammer on January 18, 2011, 11:53:55 pm
Don't know.  Do know that it would be nice if you could get the "newer libs" without "upgrading" to soho.  I see these wonderful builds, kde etc, but wonder if we would not be better off to concentrate on keeping VL 6.0 standard up to date.  Can't folks who need soho or kde find the equivalent elsewhere?
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 19, 2011, 02:30:09 pm
Don't know.  Do know that it would be nice if you could get the "newer libs" without "upgrading" to soho.  I see these wonderful builds, kde etc, but wonder if we would not be better off to concentrate on keeping VL 6.0 standard up to date.  Can't folks who need soho or kde find the equivalent elsewhere?

No. Why be down on SOHO? It's a lovely version and if you buy SOHO (i.e., financially support VectorLinux), you can install XFce during your distro installation because it's included and you have the choice to install it along with the rest. In fact, you never need to start KDE if you also install XFce with VL6 SOHO Deluxe. If you get the freebie SOHO FINAL, you can add XFce from the repos.

My question is if you want the "newer libs," why can't you upgrade to SOHO? You don't have to use KDE.

Upgrading to newer libs and kernel amounts to creating a new distro. Well, you have that in SOHO. You want things to work, don't you? Upgrading to "newer libs" will break some things, and you don't really expect packagers to create new packages for VL6 that will work with the new libs, do you?

It sounds as if you think VL6 Standard should be the final version of Standard, with just upgrading to "newer libs," newer kernel, newer XORG, and that somehow this doesn't amount to creating a new distro under the old name.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: davidlondonuk on January 20, 2011, 06:04:26 am
Thanks for comments granny.

I'm was just interested in compiling xfce 4.8:

VL6 std gold comes with gtk2 2.12.9 & glib 2.16.3 but to compile xfce 4.8 you need gtk2 2.14 & glib 2.20.

They should both be backwards compatible with any VL6 installed apps or system software so I don't really see a problem.

My knowledge of make a distro is a bit limited so are my assumptions ok or am I going to trouble or break my install?

Thanks for any help
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: stretchedthin on January 20, 2011, 02:13:50 pm

I had built the newest gtk+, glib, pango etc, which where required for my build of liferea on vl60std.  It worked and liferea was up and running but as a result xarchiver stoped functioning fully and deluge bittorrent client would not even start.  Some other applications just needed to be uninstalled and reinstalled to see the change and they were fine.  Don't know what or if there is a solution other than waiting for the next VL release.  Maybe someone else can weigh in here.
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 20, 2011, 07:54:11 pm
I'm was just interested in compiling xfce 4.8:

VL6 std gold comes with gtk2 2.12.9 & glib 2.16.3 but to compile xfce 4.8 you need gtk2 2.14 & glib 2.20.

They should both be backwards compatible with any VL6 installed apps or system software so I don't really see a problem.

My knowledge of make a distro is a bit limited so are my assumptions ok or am I going to trouble or break my install?

I have no idea. I don't know anything about "innards." I do know that upgrading some libraries will break some applications. I don't know which ones.

I guess all you can do is make an image of your present installation, install the libraries you need, compile what you want, and see if everything is working satisfactorily. Hopefully, you'll have no problems. If you do, restore the image. And be sure to let us know the results.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: davidlondonuk on January 21, 2011, 09:28:52 am
Thanks for the replies.

Upgrading to the newest gtk, glib etc would break some VL6Std packages as you would probably need to compile pango, atk & cairo as well.

I think you might be right granny, I might be better off waiting for VL7Std to come out but I am intrigued with trying out xfce 4.8 and the gtk+ & glib versions required are compatible with the pango, atk & cairo versions installed by VL6Std- so no problems there.

Any ideas when VL7StdGold is coming out? It must use xfce 4.8 surely?

The xfce developers have been pretty clever in cutting down on dependencies like gvfs and used gio instead (part of gtk) and rewriting modules like the panel where needed to keep xfce up to date. I have used kde & gnome in the past but xfce is the right mix for me, kde & gnome seem to try to do too much.
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: Joe1962 on January 21, 2011, 10:49:48 am
Robby Workman has packaged xfce-4.8 for slack-current, if you feel adventurous, you could download his source build tree and give it a shot, but it seems he had to build or rebuild a lot of deps for it. Read his NOTES carefully first.

URL: http://connie.slackware.com/~rworkman/xfce-4.8/
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 21, 2011, 01:26:37 pm
Any ideas when VL7StdGold is coming out? It must use xfce 4.8 surely?

VL7 Standard Gold will come out "when it's ready." That has been true of all Vector releases. I hope it doesn't take as long as VL6 SOHO did.<g> We're still on alphas and haven't started with the first beta yet, so it won't be real soon. If bugs are detected and zapped before we get to the betas and release candidate(s), I figure two or three months are the best-case scenario. I have no inside information whatever on this.

I think one reason VL6 SOHO took so long to get out the door was that KDE, kernels, and other things in it were moving targets. Updating a major component during testing means more testing is required.

I hope XFce 4.8 will be included, but I don't know. We'll see what's in beta 1 soon (I hope).
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: Joe1962 on January 26, 2011, 08:24:19 am
I have been working on building xfce-4.8 for VL6 SOHO, but going through rworkmans list of deps simply uncovered more deps (since he built it for slack-current, much more uptodate than VL6 SOHO). As of right now, I am pretty much stuck on udev, which won't build probably due to the old glibc. I started on udev-165, but even 147 (minimum required for latest udisks) fails to build. I am very tempted to switch to VL7 now, even though I have already built and updated A LOT of semi-dangerous stuff on VL6 SOHO (glib, atk, pango, cairo, gtk, qt, etc....), but I think I will draw the line at glibc this time... ;D
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: sledgehammer on January 26, 2011, 02:31:12 pm
I have always thought of Vector Linux in terms of its VL standard series (5.8, 6.0, etc).  I have always though SOHO was roughly the same as fedora or suse or one of several other linux flavors.  I encourage Vector to keep (or make) the VL standard series as its flagship.  I think it sets Vector apart and that concentration on a VL standard/gold as its flagship series would enable VL standard to be updated more rapidly.  I think that would be good for all concerned.   

John
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: Pita on January 26, 2011, 04:54:00 pm
I have always thought of Vector Linux in terms of its VL standard series (5.8, 6.0, etc).  I have always though SOHO was roughly the same as fedora or suse or one of several other linux flavors.  I encourage Vector to keep (or make) the VL standard series as its flagship.  I think it sets Vector apart and that concentration on a VL standard/gold as its flagship series would enable VL standard to be updated more rapidly.  I think that would be good for all concerned.   

John

I second that!
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: roarde on January 26, 2011, 06:08:09 pm
You've a third right here, have we a quorum? Let's find out.

VL 6.2 (calling SOHO's base 6.1) would buy more time to get 7 ready.

On the other hand, if the usual devs were to deviate for 6.2 or such, 7 just won't be ready.

Having VL 7 as soon as a good 7 can be had is important and will take the dev team + more. There're just not enough of the usual crew to do both. I don't like the concentration on 7 as, like you, I don't want it for my own use right now. Given available people, it's the right call for VL's future though.

I still want my 6.2. If that's to happen, ideally it'd be without anyone on the dev team participating -- maybe looking in, but not taking any time.

So from here, it looks like it'll have to be done by people who have, on average; less knowledge, perhaps little project experience, and precious little time. If that's generally true, my suggestion is to work on the parts one can or will individually, but publicly. Otherwise more time is spent talking and organizing than doing. The hope is that with everyone's work, thoughts, and study available, a consensus might coalesce. Not all that likely, but it wouldn't be a waste. True, 95% of efforts wouldn't be included even if something did come of it, but that comes with the territory.

Now if someone can start putting a place to try that together  (I'm fairly new, but pretty sure this isn't the place) I'll do what I can, when I can, which isn't much or often. But it's something. So is your not much or often.

It's bound to be vaporware. Call it "vaporlinux". "vl" (lower case) for short, which is both classy and of course quite original.

Worst case somewhere else, we'd alienate each other; but as the population is that of the VectorLinux community, I think our worst case is we might learn something or have fun. And maybe, just maybe, we can develop some things, processes, or people along the way that can really contribute to big VL.

If you just wait long enough, I'll start putting the venue together. But it's the kind of thing I'm worst at and will take longer than producing VL 7 or even VL 8 will. Someone's handy at this and can do it fairly quickly. As "this" hasn't been defined yet, how well it's done isn't as important as when. It's gonna change anyway.

Prospects for solid results aren't good, so I'm as much open to another method as any of us. We know there are enough people interested to have a quorum. But are we interested enough to try and fail and fail and fail again, and then maybe . . . ?

I can't just bite through my tongue anymore, how about you?
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: pierce.jason on January 27, 2011, 01:32:30 pm
VL6 std gold comes with gtk2 2.12.9 & glib 2.16.3 but to compile xfce 4.8 you need gtk2 2.14 & glib 2.20.

They should both be backwards compatible with any VL6 installed apps or system software so I don't really see a problem.

My knowledge of make a distro is a bit limited so are my assumptions ok or am I going to trouble or break my install?

Thanks for any help

Hello David, if you take a look at this thread (http://forum.vectorlinux.com/index.php?topic=12771) on enabling ext4 filesystem usage, you will see how you can use the packages from the SOHO cd, to update your current system.

Having updated the packages on my VL6 Light system, to those avail on the SOHO cd, I have the following package versions that might be relevant to your interests:
cairo1.6.4-i586-1vl60
atk1.22.0-i486-1
pango1.20.0-i486-1
. .
glib1.2.10-i486-3
glib22.16.3-i586-1gsb
glibc2.7-i486-10
. .
gtk+1.2.10-i486-4
gtk+22.12.9-i486-1

I'm not sure which of these packages are updated from VL6 Light's versions. How does this list compare to what you have and what you need?

ON SECOND THOUGHT: I might not have updated all my packages to SOHO's. I believe I just selectively updated the ones that I needed for ext4 support! However, if you put the SOHO cd as a repository, and upgrade everything available... you should have matching versions of everything that counts.

pierce.jason
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: pierce.jason on January 27, 2011, 01:46:42 pm
I'm not really sure I understand what you mean sledgehammer.

Quote from: sledgehammer link=topic=12828.msg79957#msg79957
I have always though SOHO was roughly the same as fedora or suse or one of several other linux flavors.
Did you think that SOHO was a totally separate distro, and not part of VectorLinux?

Quote from: sledgehammer link=topic=12828.msg79957#msg79957
I encourage Vector to keep (or make) the VL standard series as its flagship.
From what I can tell, inclusion of KDE is what sets SOHO apart. Are you proposing that VectorLinux team not support KDE, or do you mean something different here?

pierce.jason
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: pierce.jason on January 27, 2011, 01:53:10 pm
VL 6.2 (calling SOHO's base 6.1) would buy more time to get 7 ready.

With the extent of updated packages that SOHO has, I do think things would be better marked if SOHO were called "6.1" instead of "6.0".
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: Joe1962 on January 27, 2011, 02:24:40 pm
I am happily writing this on VL7 core Alpha 4.16, with xfce-4.8... ;D

I have the build system for almost all the missing/updated deps and xfce apps correctly set up for VL, in the end, I was in a bit of a hurry, so I used the rworkman scripts for the xfce-4.8 core packages. Also, a couple of late-showing dependencies were done with slackbuild.org scripts. All those should not take long to repackage in the VL style and I hope to be able to upload at least the whole build tree (sans source tarballs) on Monday. with a little luck, I might upload the packages themselves, but it will take longer at my connection speeds.
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: stretchedthin on January 27, 2011, 04:55:30 pm
@Joe1962,
Nicely done.
Since your the first to have a look at it, what do you think of xfce-4.8?
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: sledgehammer on January 27, 2011, 08:51:28 pm
I am not sure what I am recommending.  My concern is that some folks who I turned on to VL standard several years ago, folks who have used VL for a long time, tell me they are moving to Mint largely, they say, because they don't think VL standard is being kept up to date. Something like that.  One particular complaint they have has to do with updating Firefox on VL 6, a task, I gather, easier to accomplish on Mint.  I have no intention of switching.  Just concerned. 

John
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 27, 2011, 09:53:13 pm
I am not sure what I am recommending.  My concern is that some folks who I turned on to VL standard several years ago, folks who have used VL for a long time, tell me they are moving to Mint largely, they say, because they don't think VL standard is being kept up to date. Something like that.  One particular complaint they have has to do with updating Firefox on VL 6, a task, I gather, easier to accomplish on Mint.  I have no intention of switching.  Just concerned. 

Firefox is always updated promptly for VL6. I'm running the latest version right now on my VL6 Light. It goes in /testing, of course, until it has gotten enough positive feedback to make it into the other repos. But from /testing it's just a matter of marking the Firefox version and any language files desired and then clicking on Execute. How could Mint accomplish that more easily???

Perhaps it might be better to educate them than to merely listen to their unwarranted concerns, at least where Firefox is concerned. I certainly would not use a distro that went months before updating browser packages. That's not the case with VectorLinux, but you need to look in /testing for the most recent packages.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: davidlondonuk on January 30, 2011, 02:56:44 am
Thanks for all the replies. I have been used to distros that update software like xfce4 quickly. However, I think the vector way is better, I will wait for VL7 Std release.

My main reason for migrating to VL was stability so I can't have my cake and eat it-with VL there is only a minimal amount of tinkering that can be done, which is why it's so stable.

It's better to let the dev team get VL7 ready in peace and it comes out when it does. Hopefully with xfce 4.8.
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: stretchedthin on January 30, 2011, 09:21:44 am
I'm playing around on Xfce 4.8.0 now.  I would say there are still some bugs to be worked out.
A question for Joe1962, (since you also have xfce 4.8.0)

-If you have other partitions on your hard-drive. Do they show up on your desktop, but are unmountable?
-Also, if you have a flash drive with a bash script on it...is it possible for you to set the permissions (using thunar) for the script to be executable?  I seem to be prevented from doing so.
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: Joe1962 on January 31, 2011, 05:53:11 am
So far it seems to be a nice evolutionary step forward, but seriously... still no single-click on the desktop icons... ???

I have only been working on it for a day or so, mainly in Terminal while trying to set up the building of KDE-4.5.5 and the whole bunch of deps... :o

The main issues right now are getting it to work with tuxonice (still haven't managed it) and Mousepad sometimes taking over 10 seconds to close (still haven't figured this out). Regarding the drives/partitions questions, the HDD partitions don't show up on my desktop, maybe because they are all mounted in fstab. The CDs, DVDs and USB drives do show up and mount there, but I had a problem where mounting failed for normal users. This last issue may (or may not) have been related to the KDE-4.5.5 stuff (qt-policykit). I mostly fixed it by figuring out that policykit was the culprit, then finding what to edit: /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/org.freedesktop.udisks.policy
, where you need to find and change "no" to "yes" in: <allow_any>no</allow_any> for:
Code: [Select]
<action id="org.freedesktop.udisks.filesystem-mount">
Code: [Select]
<action id="org.freedesktop.udisks.drive-eject">and maybe in:
Code: [Select]
<action id="org.freedesktop.udisks.filesystem-unmount-others">
Now the only problem is with NTFS USB drives, which mount read-only... still working on that one... ::)

Oh, and it is sometimes hard to figure out which panel items have been obsoleted by 4.8 and which that aren't will work on it.



EDIT: Note: I really think one needs to disable hal and read up on udisks, upower and policykit to figure it out properly.
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: sledgehammer on January 31, 2011, 08:33:34 am
Quote
Perhaps it might be better to educate them than to merely listen to their unwarranted concerns, at least where Firefox is concerned. (Grannygeek)

I agree.  Part of my problem is that, not being familiar with mint, I often don't understand their complaint and am reluctant to tell them that they don't know what they are talking about, as they well might.  I do whatever in VL6, generally just fine. 

Another, perhaps more common complaint has to do with updating Flash.  Apparently that can be done in Mint by clicking on a button, while in VL I know I have to download the flash and then copy the new libflashplayer.so
to, if I recall correctly, the mozilla plugin section of /usr/lib.  No big deal for me, but apparently difficult for some.

John
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: Joe1962 on January 31, 2011, 09:14:17 am
FWIW, it is proving to be very stable and makes going back to xfce after a long sojourn in KDE4 with VL6SOHO just like coming home... ;D

I see there are some updates to parts of xfce going towards 4.8.1 and also to thunar. I am downloading the updates and some build stuff fixes from rworkmans build site as we speak (err... key).
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 31, 2011, 05:56:42 pm
Another, perhaps more common complaint has to do with updating Flash.  Apparently that can be done in Mint by clicking on a button, while in VL I know I have to download the flash and then copy the new libflashplayer.so
to, if I recall correctly, the mozilla plugin section of /usr/lib.  No big deal for me, but apparently difficult for some.

It's sure not intuitive and many users (myself included) would need to be told how to do it, but once you've done it, it's totally easy. I can understand the complaint, though.

I actually prefer not having a button to click on for everything I want to do because I get a chance to learn how the system works. Clicking on a button doesn't teach anything but how to click on a button.

I wonder how many potential VL users feel the same way. Ease of use is a good thing and VL has made great strides in the last few years, but we still don't conceal the guts of the system from the user. I see that as a plus. Now we just need to find users who also want to learn LINUX while enjoying an easy-to-use distro.<g>
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: pierce.jason on February 03, 2011, 11:57:49 pm
I wonder how many potential VL users feel the same way. Ease of use is a good thing and VL has made great strides in the last few years, but we still don't conceal the guts of the system from the user. I see that as a plus. Now we just need to find users who also want to learn LINUX while enjoying an easy-to-use distro.<g>
--GrannyGeek

This sub-topic between Granny and sledge has some important considerations. I move that the conversation on firefox/flash/related updating be copy/quoted to a new thread for further discussion. This seems too important to get lost among xfce stuff.

pierce.jason
Title: Re: xfce 4.8-well someone had to ask
Post by: Joe1962 on February 04, 2011, 02:06:50 pm
I've tried all the consolekit/polkit fixes around the gentoo, archlinux and linuxquestions (slackware specific) forums and I still can't get suspend and hibernate on xfce-4.8. I can suspend manually with echo "mem" > /sys/power/state (as root), however... >:(

Plug-in drives or memories mount ok now, except I haven't had a chance to look at fixing the ntfs mounting, which is read-only. I lost track of where I found the file to edit a couple of days ago... ::)

I also get a weird delay sometimes in mousepad and thunar, where scrolling pauses as soon as I release the keyboard, but the last line will scroll a few seconds later... :o  It also happens in Terminal and also mc inside Terminal, but even weirder, as then the outputs of commands (ls, for example) will not show up for until a few seconds later, or immediately I press a key... ???

Oh, nearly forgot, mousepad sometimes takes a looooong time to close even 15 seconds, no kidding!!! I switched to leafpad for quick and dirty editing... ;D

I found that partitions in /etc/fstab are not handled by xfce/thunar, but I have one of those manufacturer-installed HP_TOOLS partitions which I never removed (strange, as I normally do so) and it was on the desktop. Hiding it is a matter of editing /lib/udev/rules.d/80-udisks.rules and adding it to:
Code: [Select]
# recovery partitions (taken from old hal rules)
ENV{ID_FS_TYPE}=="ntfs|vfat", \
  ENV{ID_FS_LABEL}=="RECOVERY|HP_RECOVERY|HP_TOOLS|Recovery Partition|DellUtility|DellRestore|IBM_SERVICE|SERVICEV001|SERVICEV002", \
  ENV{UDISKS_PRESENTATION_HIDE}="1"