VectorLinux

Cooking up the Treats => Distro development => Topic started by: Kocil on May 22, 2007, 07:20:20 pm

Title: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Kocil on May 22, 2007, 07:20:20 pm
Hi folks .... from VL 4.x to VL 5.0, we had some distinguished features, e.g:
- Improved VASM and installer (Thanks to Kocil, Tigger, johnvan, ...)
- Profesional arts (thanks to UKBill, pastored, ...)
- Profesional documentation (thanks to UKBill and his gang)
- Better package management (thanks to Jaos, Kocil, ...)
- Graphical LILO
- The light WDM + IceWM + Rox
- The shining KDE

After that jumping, we have been enjoying more features like :
- Live CD
- TLZ packaging
- Udev based vl-hot
- Boot splash
- Enlightenment
- Beryl

However, VL is still in 5.x series.

So, what would be the killer punch that lift VL to 6.x series ?

Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: blurymind on May 23, 2007, 12:18:25 am
dont have to put beryl on it. Just upgrade glibc and xorg finally. ::)
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on May 23, 2007, 01:35:52 am
dont have to put beryl on it. Just upgrade glibc and xorg finally. ::)

Slackware 11.1 will do that, hopefully  ;D

The new VASM(2) and the graphical installer are certainly worth being on that list as killer apps for VL6.
The VL 5.8 repos are already quite packed, so the same could be done right from the start for VL6.

What about full source code release too?
We don't currently have anything like SRPM source archives that contain the package source and build script in one bundle...hmm...
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Lyn on May 23, 2007, 02:07:38 am
OK lets go back to first principles, what do we want Vector Linux to be?

Two main versions - one light and very very fast, and one designed for the Small Office/Home Office.

So what does that mean, given our previously stated goals of choice, speed and stability?

Well the light version, as now should include all the applications you would need for average home use of the computer.... The target market for that is older machines and an extensible base system for newer machines. 

The Soho version should include all that a person would need to run a small business from home - and that by definition probably requires a higher spec machine than the minimum specs for the standard or light version.

For choice - to me anyway - it doesn't mean that we cram everything that we could want on the install disk so that we have 4 or 5 apps that do much the same job, its about having a well stocked repository of applications that install with no problems via the package manager.  Now in the past we have had some problems with apps in the repository not being able to be loaded onto some systems due to the apps being built on specific versions.  This suggests that we may need to organise a separate repository for the standard and the soho versions.... this might go some way to making the system very user friendly.  From this you can tell I voted for the Gslapt and repository option...

But it is more than that, OK there are all the bells and whistles now being added, if we can get those included great, but only when we know that they are bug free enough to go mainstream.... I don't have much experience of them so I can't comment further on that, but Id put them in the nice catagory.

Likewise getting a graphical installler, yes it is newbie friendly if its mainly automated, but make sure we have a robust "text" installer as well....

I'd love to see a return to offering IceWM - with or without ROX, on the the light/standard version, but would be happy to see this as an extra - especially if there was a meta package that could install a version configured to look as good as the version for VL 5.01 and 5.1 did - is that possible?  That would require a unified looks and feel - with themes mirroring the default theme in KDE or Xfce complete with a menu that reflects the aps.

The documentation should be relevant to the version being used, complete with appropriate links the the forums.

And finally it should all work out of the box.

So in short no real knockout punches, just a matter of getting it all to gel and be right.  Incremental improvements.  I suspect the big jump will be the graphical installer - the rest is mainly about polish and balance and continuing to get it right... does that make any sense?
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nightflier on May 23, 2007, 04:14:14 am
Besides fast and rock steady, of course..
a repo stocked with working apps that show up in the start menu.

The thin client option is interesting, as I have been toying with the thought of a fanless, quiet station for my desktop.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 23, 2007, 05:41:47 am
Put a higher priority on the live CD. I can't pass out free installation disks and expect my friends to install it. But if I give a friend a live CD, there is a good chance he will see VectorLinux in action, and possibly give it a shot. Of course, the live CD should have an install option. Add some utilities like GParted so the live CD can be used as a rescue disk with toolkit. Maybe have a suite of tools listed under a "Rescue" or "Recovery" category available from the V-menu.

GParted
ddrescue
TestDisk
PhotoRec
CmosPwd
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: soren on May 23, 2007, 06:09:32 am
I voted for the repository, and multimedia.

When I tried freebsd I was very impressed with the ports system. I think that making a wide range of programs available to the users, is central to the open source idea. The VL repository is already great, and I see fewer and fewer references to linuxpackages.net and similar sites. This is a huge bonus for VL users, and the packagers are doing a great job, but I still feel that it is important to maintain focus on that area.

VL users are a diverse crowd, but if almost all of us have one thing in common, I think it would be multimedia. Almost everybody is using their computer for some sort of multimedia, and the presence of internet based multimedia services is getting bigger every day. If users can't access their favourite tv channel, radio station, or play their videos and dvd's, I think many will choose other distros.

JMTC,
Søren
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: M0E-lnx on May 23, 2007, 06:10:29 am
All I really want is a GUI isntaller and native Xorg 7.x. Eliminate X11R6 dependancy, and all the fancy 3D desktop thingies are just more packages to build.

But I do believe we need to focus on the GUI installer.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: hemuli on May 23, 2007, 06:20:40 am
I don't personally care about fancy graphical installers or cool looking desktops.
What I'd really like too see would be an ultra-light version of VL -sort of bare-bone OS with no X or other additional crap, just slapt to build the system of your choise (especially for low-end machines).

There's distros like that, I know, but Vector is the Vector...


Also the gaming live-dvd sounds great, but I have only CD-drive  :-[
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 23, 2007, 06:55:47 am
re: multimedia

Make K3b the default burning app for VL 6.0 Standard.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on May 23, 2007, 07:23:09 am
re: multimedia

Make K3b the default burning app for VL 6.0 Standard.

I'm not sure whether that will be done since KDElibs is needed...
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: uelsk8s on May 23, 2007, 07:37:57 am
I don't personally care about fancy graphical installers or cool looking desktops.
What I'd really like too see would be an ultra-light version of VL -sort of bare-bone OS with no X or other additional crap, just slapt to build the system of your choise (especially for low-end machines).

There's distros like that, I know, but Vector is the Vector...


Also the gaming live-dvd sounds great, but I have only CD-drive  :-[
you can do that(no X install) in 5.8 std now and then just slapt-get whatever else you want from there
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: rbistolfi on May 23, 2007, 08:56:37 am
I voted for the graphic installer. I think the text based installer is great, but looks like is important to the newbies, VL was my first linux, I just had to do some reaserch about the partitions, and everything goes from there; but some people will not give a chance to the ncurses installer.
May be VL6 should stay with the VL fundamentals: quick and stable, ligth and flexible. If you have a good hardware support everything else is secondary. I like the "one app for each task" idea. I installed the new soho and its great, but always get lost in those K apps. SOHO is bigger than std, but this doesnt mean it should not be simple. But i guess I am just a std fan  ::)
I like the linutop idea. I think saving resources is a great principle. Not because the old hard, there is a lot of benefits on it: is ambiental friendly, pocket friendly  (my new baby is making me pour :D ), is efficient. If you keep something simple it will be more productive.
I agree with the need of a ultra-ligth-easy-to-install system, and you could build almost what you want from there with slapt-get.
At last, could be nice a miniproject to intenationalize vector std, something like a wiki could help with trans and with an easy to contrib system.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: lagagnon on May 23, 2007, 10:14:30 am
Make K3b the default burning app for VL 6.0 Standard.

I disagree. That defeats the entire purpose of a lighterweight desktop as the KDE libs would have to be loaded to run k3b, thereby consuming unnecessary resources. There are many other burning apps that work just fine:
graveman, xcdroast, bashburn, amongst others...
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: M-ake on May 23, 2007, 12:54:07 pm
For me, VL-6 should have a proper laptop support. Yes, there are the wireless tools etc.....But wheres the synaptic ? Where is the suspend2 ram ? (compiling a new kernel at the moment is just too much to ask for a proper laptop support) 1280 x 800 on intel graphic chips should be made easier to achieve, right now I reckon it is not a newbie-friendly.

Of course, native Xorg 7.x is something I wait as a beryl user. Howerer, I voted for VASM & graphic installer.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: M0E-lnx on May 23, 2007, 01:07:00 pm
Amen to that!... the suspend2 and synaptics are really important, so We'll need a kernel compiled with those features.

As far as beryl goes, the project's future is up in the air right now, no decission yet, or development activity. However, an xorg upgrade is long overdue for us. Once we get that, no matter what comes out of beryl/compiz or whatever other project might come along... It'll just be a matter of building the source.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on May 23, 2007, 01:24:12 pm
The new VASM(2) and the graphical installer are certainly worth being on that list as killer apps for VL6.

Since that came up second in the poll (thus far), I should let you know that my admin suite can be made ready for the next release. The menu component I wrote can fall back to original VASM for anything I haven't done yet, and there's not too much left to do anyway.

Let me know if you're interested.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on May 23, 2007, 01:55:49 pm
Since that came up second in the poll (thus far), I should let you know that my admin suite can be made ready for the next release. The menu component I wrote can fall back to original VASM for anything I haven't done yet, and there's not too much left to do anyway.

Let me know if you're interested.

I'm interested in helping where I can ;D
Also have to talk about zenity...I'm in the IRC room at the moment...
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: incognu on May 23, 2007, 02:46:32 pm
I voted for "Great slapt-get based repository" (which we're getting to now, anyway). 

...
What about full source code release too?
We don't currently have anything like SRPM source archives that contain the package source and build script in one bundle...hmm...
This is an interesting idea.

Put a higher priority on the live CD. I can't pass out free installation disks and expect my friends to install it. But if I give a friend a live CD, there is a good chance he will see VectorLinux in action, and possibly give it a shot.  Of course, the live CD should have an install option. Add some utilities like GParted so the live CD can be used as a rescue disk with toolkit. Maybe have a suite of tools listed under a "Rescue" or "Recovery" category available from the V-menu.
That's another good point, I think.  I like the idea of a VL live rescue cd with gparted, etc


So in short no real knockout punches, just a matter of getting it all to gel and be right.  Incremental improvements.  I suspect the big jump will be the graphical installer - the rest is mainly about polish and balance and continuing to get it right... does that make any sense?
.
Absolutely, it makes sense.  Re the graphical installer, I'm happy with text-based.

I don't feel that any major changes need to be made in VL:  I think the "punch" is already there.  It's just a matter of keeping on improving what VL already has.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: LLL on May 23, 2007, 04:41:32 pm
Thumbs up to more work on the Live CD - has many benefits for the uninitiated Linuxers...

Thumbs up to more complete laptop support, too.

Thumbs up to VL's development in general - the distro improves, astounds, and makes me giddy at the new possibilities with each release.

LLL
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: tomh38 on May 23, 2007, 06:10:26 pm
I voted for the Graphical Installer & VASM, since it would make VL much easier for people coming over from Windows.  I've "converted" a number of people from Windows to Linux, but with Vector I've always done the install, because (I think) most average Windows users would balk when the first thing they're faced with in Linux is a command prompt and a text- or ncurses-based installer.  Don't get me wrong, for me the current installer is great.  As for VASM, as it is it's a great configuration tool but as with the installer could be a little confusing or intimidating for a new user.

I also like the idea of focusing more on the live cd.  I've been giving out Vector live cds for a while now, and that's how I convinced a few people to switch to Linux (though not all chose VL).

I concur with the idea of excluding K3B from VL Standard.  It's a the best cd burning app for *nix that I know of, but introducing any KDE depencies would slow things down enough to make VL Standard a bad option for a lot of older systems.

I'd like to add that aside from the poll, for me the "punch" with Vector has been the knowledge and friendliness of the Vector community.  Nobody has told me to RTFM, or called me a n00b, and every time I've asked a question someone has responded very quickly.  Without the helpfulness of the developers and other users, Vector would be as good a distro as it is.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Pita on May 23, 2007, 08:13:50 pm
I thought the installer for VL-5.8 is graphic My be I am too old. VL installs just great the way it is, then why change. As for a "punch" don't mess with it, stay as you are and I won't have to move house again.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Kocil on May 24, 2007, 01:25:48 am
stay as you are and I won't have to move house again.

This could be the best "punch".  Why didn't we think about it.

I remember when I was fighting in a martial art contest, I was in complete control.
My coach just gave this suggestion, "you know what you are doing, just kick him harder".  ;D


Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 24, 2007, 02:35:20 am
Quote
...introducing any KDE depencies would slow things down enough to make VL Standard a bad option for a lot of older systems.

Speaking of bogging down the system, there are some games that totally take over system resources, and basically, dont run well on a 500 MHz computer, almost freezing it up. It's hard to recover a system once the game is running. Is there a fast and dirty way to stop a game that is bogging down the computer that way? Assuming the troublesome games are retained, maybe there could be some sort of warning or designation for resource-intensive games that freeze up an older system. For example, put an asterisk beside the games that are intended for higher end machines. When I am selling a computer, it's embarassing when a game takes over a box like that, and I must hit the reset button to recover, and explain why the computer won't play this game.

I havent observed KDE slowing things down, even when I call K3b, which is installed on all seven of my VL 5.8 Std boxes.  Is KDE slowing down my system?  What is the size of kdelibs?

lagagnon has a good point: It makes sense to keep the burning app light. Graveman could definitely use some improvement ("fixating" error). XCdRoast is a bit difficult to install. I still havent tried Bashburn, but that app is inconsistent with the GUI style of default apps. I mean, if there was an entry for Bashburn under Multimedia, that would be better, because how can I expect the new owner of a computer to even know Bashburn is there.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Toe on May 24, 2007, 04:44:34 am
I voted repo and VASM/installer.

In particular, I'd like to see the wall between SOHO and Standard torn down, and LiveCD too if possible.  Develop concurrently, release concurrently.

I'd like to be able to start with an installation of Standard, add KDE and other SOHO apps, and end up with the same system as if I'd started with SOHO and added Xfce and other Standard apps.  In practice it doesn't quite work like that today.

Get all the install packages from both versions in one repo, and then build the ISOs directly from those packages.  I'd like to be able to use something like Jigdo (http://atterer.net/jigdo/) to build my own ISO from the repo.  Heck, maybe even use it for the official ISOs?  Alphageek's Sligdo (http://alphageek.dyndns.org/linux/sligdo/) script/template for using Jigdo to build Slackware ISOs from the repo would probably be a good place to start.

I've also been wondering if a common 'clean' environment for building packages with checkinstall would be helpful.  Something that would start with only the packages common to the common versions of both Standard and SOHO and then builds from there.  I'd like to easily be able to start it up, install the dependencies, build the package itself, shut it down, and have the install still be 'clean' for the next use.  The clean base itself would probably be read-only, and then use UnionFS or something to bring a writable drive in.  Obviously that's a lot like how LiveCDs work, so a LiveCD would probably be a good candidate for the clean base.  Otherwise, a separate install on a read-only partition, or maybe even something like VirtualBox or VMware could be used for the build environment.  The build environment should have access to the local package cache and install CD, since every time you use it it's only going to have a very minimal set of packages installed.
Title: Breakind down barriers between SOHO and Standard 9also the live CD)
Post by: Colonel Panic on May 24, 2007, 05:48:06 am
Yeah, I think this is a very good idea if it is possible. Ubuntu apparently runs as a live CD unless you decide to install it.

As for KDE, it should be possible to prepare "install packs" like the .sfs files which exist for Puppy, where you can add on functionality for extra web browsing (Firefox + Java etc.), Open Office and KDE, i.e. for several different programs at once.

However, my main suggestion is to make the Vector install completely modular, so that if you mess up your XFCE installation, for example, you don't have to reinstall Vector all over again in order to recover it. I know there are workarounds for this but it'd be nice to be able to do it by default.

I don't know how practical these are from a developer's point of view.

Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: OU812 on May 24, 2007, 05:58:51 am
If you compare standard with soho, standard just doesn't measure up in terms of completeness. And the apps just aren't as good as the ones bundled with soho. I think, especially in the multimedia area, standard needs improvement:

1. Replace graveman - perhaps with gnomebaker
2. Add a music manager such as exaile
3. Include streamtuner

Perhaps include software to partition and back up files, folders, and directories; an app to set up your nfts drives with fuse; maybe even some tools for remastering the iso to create your own vl. I could go on, but I'm mostly stealing ideas from puppylinux and wolvix. Again, I vote for completeness.

john
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Joe1962 on May 24, 2007, 06:26:20 am
an app to set up your nfts drives with fuse
I'm sort of working on a universal mount helper gui. Perhaps planning is the better word for it though.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on May 24, 2007, 08:37:23 am
Quote
1. Replace graveman - perhaps with gnomebaker
2. Add a music manager such as exaile

Gnome baker needs HAL, a resource hogging daemon...so I doubt that will happen. Its a pity that Graveman's development has stagnated, it has great potential.
About exaile: I find amarok work faster enevn on my P3 900 box.

As far as completeness, that is more subjective.
That is why Standard and SOHO exist, so that you can make a choice to either suit your needs or hardware.

This doesn't mean that new and better apps should be left out, but if they bog down the system (especially on not-so-new machines) then they might have to be reconsidered...
Title: Re: Breakind down barriers between SOHO and Standard 9also the live CD)
Post by: lagagnon on May 24, 2007, 09:36:01 am
However, my main suggestion is to make the Vector install completely modular, so that if you mess up your XFCE installation, for example, you don't have to reinstall Vector all over again in order to recover it.

I don't really understand that statement I'm afraid. xfce is automatically installed properly in VL5.8 Standard. Do you mean mess up the configuration files? There is a feature already in VASM to cope with such issues which is "VASM, SKEL".
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: JohnB316 on May 24, 2007, 09:47:48 am
I voted repo and VASM/installer.

In particular, I'd like to see the wall between SOHO and Standard torn down, and LiveCD too if possible.  Develop concurrently, release concurrently.

It would be very nice if we could do this. We just don't have enough active devs to do this at present. :-( If we had more people, then that would be another story. Bottom line: If you have the skills needed to help us, even in a limited way, please reach out for vector, Joe1962, Uelsk8s or me. We welcome the help, but you've got to stick with it. ;-)

I'd like to be able to start with an installation of Standard, add KDE and other SOHO apps, and end up with the same system as if I'd started with SOHO and added Xfce and other Standard apps.  In practice it doesn't quite work like that today.

Actually, when I built the KDE 3.5.6 packages for the VL 5.8 repository, I started from VL 5.8 Standard (5.8 SOHO was still in alphas then). The only change I made was to upgrade qt from 3.3.5 to 3.3.7 due to security fixes offered in qt-3.3.7.


Get all the install packages from both versions in one repo, and then build the ISOs directly from those packages.  I'd like to be able to use something like Jigdo (http://atterer.net/jigdo/) to build my own ISO from the repo.  Heck, maybe even use it for the official ISOs?  Alphageek's Sligdo (http://alphageek.dyndns.org/linux/sligdo/) script/template for using Jigdo to build Slackware ISOs from the repo would probably be a good place to start.

Uelsk8s may be better able to speak to this than I, since he's the one that has been mastering the ISO images lately.

I've also been wondering if a common 'clean' environment for building packages with checkinstall would be helpful.  Something that would start with only the packages common to the common versions of both Standard and SOHO and then builds from there.  I'd like to easily be able to start it up, install the dependencies, build the package itself, shut it down, and have the install still be 'clean' for the next use.  The clean base itself would probably be read-only, and then use UnionFS or something to bring a writable drive in.  Obviously that's a lot like how LiveCDs work, so a LiveCD would probably be a good candidate for the clean base.  Otherwise, a separate install on a read-only partition, or maybe even something like VirtualBox or VMware could be used for the build environment.  The build environment should have access to the local package cache and install CD, since every time you use it it's only going to have a very minimal set of packages installed.

In theory this would be fine. However, some programs need deps that may not be present on the 'clean' environment, which may need yet other stuff... I've found this to be true in building KDE-related stuff. The compromise, at least for me, is to keep my build partition as clean as possible but not to ditch dependencies that I know I'll need later on.

Just my $0.02,
John
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 24, 2007, 10:35:08 am
an app to set up your nfts drives with fuse
I'm sort of working on a universal mount helper gui. Perhaps planning is the better word for it though.

What's the difference between fuse and ntfs-3g? I'm having no problems mounting my NTFS drives with ntfs-3g enabled and so far I haven't had any problems writing to them. Writing to an NTFS drive is something I don't do often, however, and I don't think I'd do it to the drive that holds my XP system files.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 24, 2007, 10:45:34 am
If you compare standard with soho, standard just doesn't measure up in terms of completeness. And the apps just aren't as good as the ones bundled with soho. I think, especially in the multimedia area, standard needs improvement:

I can't agree with that, given that Standard is geared toward older systems and toward users like me who like to build a system from a basic foundation. I was content with Graveman but I like K3B more, so the other day I installed kdelibs and k3b from the VL repos. I don't have any really old systems and I'm overloaded with drive space; that's not true for many Standard users.

I added exaile to 5.8 Standard a long time ago. I don't see any need to have it included in the ISO. Those who want it can install the package easily. I don't know what streamtuner is. Apparently I haven't felt a need for it.

"Completeness" to me means I have the basic foundation sufficient to compile programs for which there is no package. Once the foundation is there, those who want more than the basic system provided by Standard can add what they want with gslapt.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 24, 2007, 01:39:47 pm
I dont know the history of VL SOHO, but I would like to keep Standard and SOHO separate. I have always thought SOHO dilutes the efforts and effects of VectorLinux. I have not tried SOHO, but I wonder why we compete with the likes of PCLinuxOS, SUSE, Mandriva, Mepis, Kubuntu, etc. [thriving, popular distributions featuring KDE] How many people download and use SOHO versus the same for Standard? [This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious. An approximation in relative percentages or a ratio would be useful. I would guess Std:SOHO::3:1]

We need better power management for laptops, as was pointed out in a recent review. I dont agree with the reviewer who said there was redundancy in multimedia (SOHO). I like choice in multimedia.

I would like to see us establish a relationship with a manufacturer of miniPCs, where the attributes of VL will be put to greatest effect. A miniPC model in the range of 400mhz to 1.3ghz would be an ideal showcase for VL. I've compared: above 400mhz VL is faster than Puppy. The equipment here is not old problematic hardware (for which Puppy might be more adaptable); the miniPCs are brand new.
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3000.0
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on May 24, 2007, 02:04:22 pm
Quote
I have not tried SOHO, but I wonder why we compete with the likes of PCLinuxOS, SUSE, Mandriva, Mepis, Kubuntu, etc. How many people download and use SOHO versus the same for Standard?

VL SOHO is the fastest KDE distro I know of....
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 24, 2007, 03:05:54 pm
It's been six months since the first availability of VL 5.8 Standard GOLD, and still there is no live CD. At this rate, we wont have a final version of the live CD before VL 6.0 Std comes out. Presently, I must use VL 5.1.1 live CD to show off VectorLinux, to introduce people to VL 5.8. What is the cycle for a version of VectorLinux, the usual 6 months? one year? the next increment of Slackware? I'm not trying to be pushy, but the live CD should have been available within a month after VL 5.8 Std final, to have served its purpose.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: rbistolfi on May 24, 2007, 03:49:08 pm
hmmm, I think you are rigth in your idea, nubcunubdo, but you already know the answer, since it is already answered on this forum: a small group of devs. THis doesnt mean you are wrong, the live cd should be out before std to do the job of claim for atention. May be one task to do is an efficient system to join contributors. I have no developer skills, so I cant help on those things, but may be in other way... I didnt find it yet. I think could be nice a way to show to the public a list of tasks and what are the skills needed to complete them. I guess the community could take some job, like maintaining the web site, and others not estrictly related with the development, so the devs could have more time for their main job. A "how to help" link in somewhere could be usefull too. The financial issue was already touched on this forum, and some ideas come out from there. I guess we dont have to live a possibilitie for explore, and find different ways to give VL the things it need.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nightflier on May 24, 2007, 06:12:32 pm
How many people download and use SOHO versus the same for Standard?

Many of us enjoy the combination of VL speed and KDE features. I don't think it's mainly KDE which slows down the bigger, "fully automatic" distros. There is a lot of other software running in order to detect new hardware, provide every conceivable service and present neat effects. I am not saying that is bad, the point is that VL SOHO is not competing with the likes of Ubuntu etc..
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 24, 2007, 07:12:46 pm
I'm not trying to be pushy, but the live CD should have been available a month after VL 5.8 Std final, to have served its purpose.

As far as I know, the LiveCD is not an official VectorLinux project. It's a volunteer effort and it gets done when it gets done. Did the older versions make it past the beta stage? I'm not sure about that.

I don't think there's any set purpose for the LiveCD. Some people like them to get an idea of what a distro is like. Others like them for making repairs and fixing up a system that is having problems. Some people like them for taking to computers and running Linux without actually installing it on the hard drive. I did that with a Knoppix CD a few years ago when we were visiting my brother-in-law and I didn't want to read my e-mail on his "real" system because if anything went wrong, I didn't want to get blamed.<g> So I used the Knoppix CD and read my Webmail that way.

Unless I'm prepared to jump in and do major work to help out, I wouldn't presume to complain that something wasn't ready on my schedule. ;)
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 24, 2007, 07:49:19 pm
Check out other distributions and see how many of their installation disks are live CDs as well. I'm looking at the list at Distrowatch: Most (75%) of the distros in the top 20 have live CD versions.

  1  Ubuntu - install disk is live CD
  2  openSUSE - install disk is live CD
  3  PCLinuxOS - install disk is live CD
  4  Fedora - live CD available*
  5  MEPIS - install disk is live CD
  6  Debian - no live CD
  7  Sabayon - install disk is live CD
  8  Mandriva - live CD Mandriva One
  9  Mint - install disk is live CD
10  DSL - live CD is install disk
11  KNOPPIX - live CD
12  Gentoo - install disk is live CD
13  Zenwalk - separate official live CD
14  Slackware - SLAX no live CD
15  CentOS - live CD available
16  Kubuntu - install disk is live CD
17  Vector
18  FreeBSD - http://www.freesbie.org/
19  Puppy - live CD is install disk
20  DreamLinux - install disk is live CD

* http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/11/1841241
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: JohnB316 on May 24, 2007, 08:30:26 pm
FYI, SLAX is not an official Slackware project. Like VL, it's another of the derivatives of Papa Slack. To quote from the project's home page at http://www.slax.org :

Quote
SLAX is fast and beautiful Linux operating system which fits on small (3.14") CD-ROM disc. It runs directly from the CD (or USB) without installing. The Live CD described here is based on the Slackware Linux distribution and uses Unification File System (also known as unionfs), allowing read-only filesystem to behave as a writable one, saving all changes to memory.

Thus, it can be correctly said that Slackware does not have an official live CD, the article at linux.com notwithstanding.

Cheers,
John
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 24, 2007, 08:42:53 pm
Quote
FYI, SLAX is not an official Slackware project.

That's why I put it in parenthesis, it not being official. Now struckthrough. The "official" count is still 16 of 20.

What about VL Live CD, John, is that official?

Debian:
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianLive/Why

EDIT: With VL LiveCD official, the count is 17 of 20.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: uelsk8s on May 24, 2007, 09:13:41 pm
The VL-Live cd's have been Officially endorsed by Vector himself.

The RC1 release of 5.8 std livecd was released  on: March 05, 2007
in its bug thread there was 1 report so either it was close to perfect or not many tested it.
It will be finished soon along with the SOHO livecd

Uelsk8s
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: blurymind on May 25, 2007, 02:21:26 am
live cd's are a great way to show the user the goods of a distro in a quick way,but they are not good for install cds. I think that we should have live cds and thats where uelsk8s does his job great, but we shouldnt make the mistake that ubuntu made.Their install live cd is quite possibly the most unpleasant laggy experience i've ever had installing a distro.
Uelsk had an installer on one of the latest live cds and it had problems with it,but unlike ubuntu it wasnt laggy at all.The fastest,lightest live cd installation i've ever experienced! But it had a problem and some things had to be done to fix them.Still very promising,but for installation, VL has a great way to archive packages on a small iso,i think the install cd should be default.Its a better option if one wants quality and stability.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on May 25, 2007, 02:35:53 am
Quote
Check out other distributions and see how many of their installation disks are live CDs as well.

By making the install CD a LiveCD, one would probably have to sacrifice quite a few packages and extras to make space for the overhead a LiveCD creates.... ::)
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 25, 2007, 03:51:13 am
Quote
Of course, the live CD should have an install option.

I suggested that the live CD have an install option, not that the install CD should be a live CD.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nightflier on May 25, 2007, 05:44:18 am
I would like to see the Live disk remain just that, and not installable.

I use the live version for maintenance and repair. It could be optimized as a power tool and demo version. Cram it with command line tools. Trim the GUI down to a lean desktop with only a few essential programs. Seeing Open Office load from the CD is not the best way to introduce people to Linux.   ::)

Live may be the wave of the future, but I think it still has ways to go before it is fully mature. Perhaps the future will bring us a unified disc where you can select "Demo", "Maintenance" (cli power), "GUI Installler" and "Text installer". Those installers should be the equivalent of today's processes, not the "all or nothing" that you see in many of the above mentioned offerings.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: lagagnon on May 25, 2007, 07:46:54 am
...but we shouldnt make the mistake that ubuntu made.Their install live cd is quite possibly the most unpleasant laggy experience i've ever had installing a distro.

Exactly. Furthermore, in order to cram the LiveCD stuff and the graphical installer onto their CD they have only been able to include a VERY limited amount of software. VL includes at least twice the number of packages on our system as Ubuntu does. Personally I disagree with the concept of an installable LiveCD, it is trying to be everything to everyone and fails at that.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: stoichyu on May 25, 2007, 09:04:30 am
Live may be the wave of the future, but I think it still has ways to go before it is fully mature. Perhaps the future will bring us a unified disc where you can select "Demo", "Maintenance" (cli power), "GUI Installler" and "Text installer". Those installers should be the equivalent of today's processes, not the "all or nothing" that you see in many of the above mentioned offerings.

Hm... I think that is possible with the linux-live scripts.

The new live scripts already use lzma compression which is the same as our packages so we can cram just as much stuff as we want. Also, the install cd is pretty much the same with the way the live cd works, you archive parts of the file system and put it on the cd. The main difference is that the livecd mounts the archives while installing extracts the archives themselves. The only difference would be the configuration which can be separate for both the livecd and the installed version. I'm not sure if slax is installable, but if it is, then it would certainly be doable in VL.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 25, 2007, 09:09:31 am
I wasn't aware of the overhead involved in adding the install option. On the other hand, Puppy manages to include its Puppy Universal Installer along with a nice selection of tools, all in an 89MB iso. If a user is savvy enough to run a live CD, perhaps he has the technical ability to install VL the old way, with text installer. Naturally, the install option is left up to techs/devs who know more than me. May I say, a good opportunity is missed if the liveCD doesn't have the install option.

Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nightflier on May 25, 2007, 09:30:50 am
I'm not sure if slax is installable

It is possible, but not recommended.
http://www.slax.org/doc_install_slax.php
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Joe1962 on May 25, 2007, 09:35:33 am
By making the install CD a LiveCD, one would probably have to sacrifice quite a few packages and extras to make space for the overhead a LiveCD creates.... ::)
Exactly why I prefer to each his own. Can't beat a proper install CD.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: uelsk8s on May 25, 2007, 09:38:26 am
Live may be the wave of the future, but I think it still has ways to go before it is fully mature. Perhaps the future will bring us a unified disc where you can select "Demo", "Maintenance" (cli power), "GUI Installler" and "Text installer". Those installers should be the equivalent of today's processes, not the "all or nothing" that you see in many of the above mentioned offerings.

Hm... I think that is possible with the linux-live scripts.

The new live scripts already use lzma compression which is the same as our packages so we can cram just as much stuff as we want. Also, the install cd is pretty much the same with the way the live cd works, you archive parts of the file system and put it on the cd. The main difference is that the livecd mounts the archives while installing extracts the archives themselves. The only difference would be the configuration which can be separate for both the livecd and the installed version. I'm not sure if slax is installable, but if it is, then it would certainly be doable in VL.

The VL lve cd's have always been installable, but there has been some problems with the installers.
We are working on SOHO-LIVE now and having big problems trying to fit it onto a 700mb cd, and that is with the new live scripts with lzma. The new live filesystem is a combination of squash+lzma so you dont get the same compression ratio.
SOHO would take more than 900mb as a livecd and thats without any kde language packs.

Uelsk8s
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: newt on May 25, 2007, 09:49:14 am
You can't be the proper install cd.

About a year ago I wanted to give ubuntu (new version at the time) a shot so I snagged the ISO.  To my surprise it was live - and took a long time to get to the desktop and was (as previously stated) kludgy at best.  No worries, I didn't care about the "live" feel since I was going to install it to the hard drive anyways.  I began the installer and followed along.  A couple minutes into install the system just hung - no hard drive activity, no install progression, but the mouse moved.  Thinking it was a glitch, I gave it another shot and ended up with the exact same results.  So then I snagged the ISO again thinking it was a corrupt image - that also didn't solve the problem - same results.  Since I was getting "shut down" at every turn trying to play with the new ubuntu I decided to grab kubuntu.  It installed fine, but I remember having troubles trying to compile packages from source.  This had never been an issue on slackware so I scrapped the idea of *buntu on my system.

That's why I like the proper install cd ;D
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: tomh38 on May 25, 2007, 11:17:45 am
Just to chime in on the Live CD issue ... I've been using VL5.8-std-LIVE-beryl-B4 since it came out in March.  I've had very few problems, most of which have been related to Beryl, and even so not too many of those.  I use the 5.8 Live RC1 to demo VL all the time, no problems yet, and it's also great as a system recovery tool for somebody's Windows machine which has been borked by viruses or other malware.  Just a few days ago I used it to recover all the important data on my brother's Windows XP machine after his 11-year-old stepson had disabled all the security software to make his games run faster (thus infesting the machine with viruses etc.).

As far as I'm concerned, the Live CDs don't ever have to go "Gold."  Personally, I've had a great experience with them.  For the small number of developers that VL has, it's probably more important to focus on the non-live releases of the OS, which in my experience is the best desktop Linux available, both for older and newer computers.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 25, 2007, 11:21:00 am
If a user is savvy enough to run a live CD, perhaps he has the technical ability to install VL the old way, with text installer.

I thought the idea behind a distro's LiveCD was that the user *didn't* have to be tech savvy. Just put the CD in the drive and boot. Of course, it doesn't always work that way, as the default for running the CD may disagree with a particular system.

I don't think LiveCDs give that great of an impression of a distro. It's a lot slower to run a system off a CD than off a hard drive and people may get the wrong idea even if you caution them about the slowness. Also, there's not enough guidance for a newbie. I know of Windows users who ran LiveCDs and couldn't figure out where the file manager was, how to start programs, how to see what was on their Windows partition.

Anyone who can install an operating system--ANY operating system--is already way more tech savvy than the average computer user. I think we Linux users often forget that.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 25, 2007, 11:24:13 am
Since I was getting "shut down" at every turn trying to play with the new ubuntu I decided to grab kubuntu.  It installed fine, but I remember having troubles trying to compile packages from source.  This had never been an issue on slackware so I scrapped the idea of *buntu on my system.

Lots of distros do not include the developer files needed when you're compiling something. They can be installed pretty easily if you know what you need, but VectorLinux is much better out of the box if you're going to compile anything.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on May 25, 2007, 12:40:36 pm
Quote
Lots of distros do not include the developer files needed when you're compiling something. They can be installed pretty easily if you know what you need, but VectorLinux is much better out of the box if you're going to compile anything.

Hehe, yeah...the so-called "devel" packages... :-X

Extremely annoying that headers are removed from the main packages. Thats one of my gripes with Ubuntu: its bad enough to have to hunt for libraries let alone having to hunt for the headers because you need to compile something from source.

Back on topic though: it would be nice to see all GTK apps and Xfce in VL 6 compiled with the "--included-gettext" option as Caitlyn Martin had pointed out to ensure internationalization support.
That would at least allow the possibility of making language packs for VL 6 that can be put in the repo.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Toe on May 25, 2007, 01:17:01 pm
If it's possible, I say keep the LiveCD separate, but still keep it installable.  I don't think it's such a terrible thing to not include every last app on the LiveCD.  But someone who downloads & runs the LiveCD to try VL out shouldn't have to download & burn a whole extra ISO just to get it installed. 

Ideally, I see it working like this:  A user downloads a VL LiveCD, likes it (of course!), and decides to install it.  Since the user doesn't have a 'complete' SOHO or Standard install CD, there should be a simple way to download & install the packages left off of the LiveCD, thus upgrading them to a 'full' install of VL.  This could be done either at install time or afterward.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: blurymind on May 26, 2007, 01:34:54 am
the punch for vl6:

The upgrades of xorg and other packages (waiting for slack11.1)

VL's killer apps that sepparate it from other distros+ vlpackager as a new addition.

Change of the site's look. The curent theme is terrible and its hard to find a link to the forum,plus you can learn from other websites- add sections that are live,that change oftenly. My best bet is to integrate somehow with the forum as much as possible.Have links to latest threads of this and that. If gra[hic files are needed,i will try to provide.  ::)  There are wonderfull site templates and themes that are open source.
http://www.openwebdesign.org/most_popular.phtml
http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/
http://www.oswd.org/
you can take one and modify it abit to fit Vec.

if not Use this Forum's theme if thats not troublesome.Mimic it! I know a few web designers who will help gladly for free.
You can also add a simple gallery for users,where they can upload screenshots of their desktop. This will definatelly trigger some additional fame to vec's comunity. Mepis had sucha gallery and it was sepparated from its main site- it deffinetelly drew new users.Ubuntu did something like this and integrated it with the forum. Look around different distro websites and take ideas from them:Sabayon,Zenwalk,pclinuxOs,WOLVIX,there are so many other well made websites..

The distro's look and feel needs a little more polishing. VL-Soho was awesome...but VL-std and probably soho too dont have an icon for the tlz mimetype,which is a shame.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: JohnB316 on May 26, 2007, 05:21:14 pm
---snip---
Change of the site's look. The curent theme is terrible and its hard to find a link to the forum,plus you can learn from other websites- add sections that are live,that change oftenly. My best bet is to integrate somehow with the forum as much as possible.Have links to latest threads of this and that. If gra[hic files are needed,i will try to provide.  ::)  There are wonderfull site templates and themes that are open source.
http://www.openwebdesign.org/most_popular.phtml
http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/
http://www.oswd.org/
you can take one and modify it abit to fit Vec.

if not Use this Forum's theme if thats not troublesome.Mimic it! I know a few web designers who will help gladly for free.

Right now, vector is working as both lead dev and webmaster, so guess what gets shortchanged? The web site.  >:( Keep that in mind when complaining about the design of the main site, or lack thereof.

As for the offer of help in maintaining the site, I'm very skeptical, because we've had people who have said they would help with the web site, only to back out for whatever reason. I'll believe the offer of web designers either when I see vector posting an annoucement that we have one or if one of them posts here and says he/she is willing to do it and then follows through and does it.

To quote former US Congressman Michael "Ozzie" Myers from the ABSCAM tapes, "Money talks, bullshit walks."  :-X

::: end of rant :::

Cheers,
John
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 26, 2007, 06:04:11 pm
You can also add a simple gallery for users,where they can upload screenshots of their desktop. This will definatelly trigger some additional fame to vec's comunity.

I think this is an excellent idea. Since we seem to have a wide range of tastes in desktops, from minimalist to 3D, the gallery would display the versatility of VL.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: lagagnon on May 26, 2007, 10:30:58 pm
As for the offer of help in maintaining the site, I'm very skeptical, because we've had people who have said they would help with the web site, only to back out for whatever reason.

I am currently assisting in updating the website but for "content and text" only. I do not have the skill, time or inclination to assist with web design or re-design of the website. All of the reviews, testimonials, mirrors, downloads, links, screenshots, version info, etc have all been updated within the last month so at least in terms of overall text content the website is now much more up-to-date. If anyone notes anything they feel needs editing, removal or added please feel free to PM me and I will consider it for inclusion - however, this pertains to text info only. I have no intentions of changing the web design or layout.

In fact, I have to disagree with blurymind - I personally don't see too much wrong with our website in general.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: blurymind on May 27, 2007, 01:42:04 am
theres nothing wrong with the website,guys. I just say you should change its look with every new big version release. I am not questioning your ability as a site maintainer or designer.Vl6 deserves a new website look,since that will be what the newcoming users will see before downloading it.

The layout of curent website is not wrong. The only thing I dont like is the Logo banner at top and that its hard to find a link to the forum itself.  If you don't have the manpower,will or time,leave it as it is. ::)

The website itself is for a different thread. No new ideas can be harmful,since they are only words and nobody triggered them,since nobody wants to. No need to deffend.

Im always criticising everything.To me- everything can be done better,nothings perfect- never.Sorry.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 27, 2007, 08:38:56 am
I just say you should change its look with every new big version release.

Why? There is a lot to be said for familiarity. Personally, I don't like to have to learn to navigate a website that changes frequently.

Quote
Vl6 deserves a new website look,since that will be what the newcoming users will see before downloading it.

If they're new users checking us out before they download the ISO, the site will look new to them regardless of how long it's been the same. ;)

I'm not saying the site couldn't be improved. I've seen far worse, though.

As for a link to the forum being hard to find, it's right there in the top left column under Main Menu. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a new section called Support right under the Main Menu section. It could include links to Support Forum and Documentation.

As always, it's a question of who's going to do the job. We certainly can't expect people already heavily involved (as volunteers, yet) to do even more.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Kocil on May 27, 2007, 11:40:20 pm
In particular, I'd like to see the wall between SOHO and Standard torn down, and LiveCD too if possible.  Develop concurrently, release concurrently.

We have had this idea since SOHO 5.0 development, known as vectelopment system.

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/vectorlinux/development/vectelopment-5.0/doc1/0-THE_PROPOSAL

We wrote a lot about this in the vector Linux WIKI.
Unfortunatelly, the wiki was hacked, never recovered,
and the idea is gone with that too  :'(

Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: blurymind on May 28, 2007, 07:35:52 am
I just say you should change its look with every new big version release.

Why? There is a lot to be said for familiarity. Personally, I don't like to have to learn to navigate a website that changes frequently.

Quote
Vl6 deserves a new website look,since that will be what the newcoming users will see before downloading it.

If they're new users checking us out before they download the ISO, the site will look new to them regardless of how long it's been the same. ;)

I'm not saying the site couldn't be improved. I've seen far worse, though.

As for a link to the forum being hard to find, it's right there in the top left column under Main Menu. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a new section called Support right under the Main Menu section. It could include links to Support Forum and Documentation.

As always, it's a question of who's going to do the job. We certainly can't expect people already heavily involved (as volunteers, yet) to do even more.
--GrannyGeek
if Vl-team is open to talk about the site, lest start a thread about it. If not, i wont continue in this thread,because its not about it. If we continue to argue, we wont achieve anything. When or if you decide to change its look,first look at other distros websites and try to compete with them.

If we have to put people's views, let them vote about the design, people that arent vector devs, you will see that they'll agree with me that zenwalk and many other distros have a better designed website. Simpler to navigate, with bigger links,that are found easily, with better colors and layout, better banner (i dont really care about the slogan,just the way it looks),better fonts too.Thats my point of view.I will not change it,but i will shut up about it. The curent VL website just looks old,as if it was made 5 or 6 years ago by enthusiasts...and its harder to navigate.I think who ever made it,made it for a 800x600 monitors. This forum's design looks better than it,and manages to pull out the Bluish look far better.Use its colors and design 1:1 and you wont lose. If you do, why not integrate it with main site,just as Wolvix did? Their website is superb at that.If its integrated the user will log in directly at the main page,se the latest posts from the main page,see latest packages at the repo in the main page... Thats what a main page should do- integrate with the flow of information and show the latest.If it does,people will visit it more oftenly and look at it.Not only newcoming users,but vl users. As it is now,i have the feeling that everybody just ignores the main page and visits only the forum.
Sabayon,zenwalk,wolvix,pclinuxos,...etc- thats the case with most distros out there,that are in the top of the charts(top20?) -they all try to show everything thats new at the main page and link to it. Wheter if its a forum post,users online,new pms in the inbox,last uploaded package,last uploaded picture,anything goes.Web2.0 is the way to go,i say. Not only admins, the whole comunity should affect whats going on the main page. Just look at wolvix's page with its sections and everything.Look at the other websites.Compete if you want to win.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: LLL on May 28, 2007, 06:42:38 pm
that everybody just ignores the main page and visits only the forum.

True for me. Agree a separate thread is needed. Also understand hesitation of devs as lots of "I can do this..." goes on without substance - I am guilty of it myself.

LLL
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 29, 2007, 07:39:09 am
Quote
...everybody just ignores the main page and visits only the forum.

There is no link to the Main Page from the Forum. Since most people come straight to the Forum and hang out here, then the Forum is the logical place to put a link to the Main Page, to invite visitors and members to have a look see.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 29, 2007, 05:53:50 pm
There is no link to the Main Page from the Forum.

There is a link to the forum from the Forum's main page. It's under Main Menu on the left.

]quote]the Forum is the logical place to put a link to the Main Page, to invite visitors and members to have a look see.[/quote]

I agree that a link from the Forum to the Main Page is a great idea.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Link to VL home page
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 29, 2007, 09:00:03 pm
Another place to put a link to VL's home page (from the Forum) is in the "Jump to" drop-down menu at the bottom of Forum pages.

It may be confusing that the Forum has a tab for HOME, its index page, and VL has a home page, which blurymind called the main page. I would suggest renaming the Forum HOME tab as MAIN,* and keeping VL home page as Home.

* If not MAIN, then INDEX.

EDIT: phpBB forum software (Debian,Mint,Puppy) uses "FORUM INDEX".
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Colonel Panic on May 30, 2007, 07:59:30 am

I like the look of the Ultima forum;

http://www.ultimalinux.com/
Title: Re: Breaking down barriers between SOHO and Standard (also the live CD)
Post by: Colonel Panic on May 30, 2007, 08:09:10 am

I don't really understand that statement I'm afraid. xfce is automatically installed properly in VL5.8 Standard. Do you mean mess up the configuration files? There is a feature already in VASM to cope with such issues which is "VASM, SKEL".

I've had a look at the VASM menus and couldn't find it. But anyway, SKEL isn't an intuitive place to look when your window manager is called Xfce. I think that part of the config needs to be made more user-friendly, since Xfce seems prone to mishaps (I don't use it anymore).

Title: Re: Koolu Little Green FOSS Machine!
Post by: nubcnubdo on May 30, 2007, 10:13:28 am
Ubuntu and Koolu have established a business partnership. VectorLinux should get a miniPC partner. It would be good publicity, and maybe we could negotiate a cut of the proceeds.

Koolu Tiny PC, Ubuntu Certified, fanless PC
http://www.koolu.com/

other miniPCs:
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3000.0

Title: Re: Breaking down barriers between SOHO and Standard (also the live CD)
Post by: GrannyGeek on May 30, 2007, 07:56:55 pm
I've had a look at the VASM menus and couldn't find it. But anyway, SKEL isn't an intuitive place to look when your window manager is called Xfce. I think that part of the config needs to be made more user-friendly, since Xfce seems prone to mishaps (I don't use it anymore).

As soon as you start VASM, the first screen has
SKEL    Reset default settings

I agree that it's not so obvious that SKEL will fix a messed up XFce. At least, not obvious enough for a newbie.

No XFce mishaps here since beta testing days for 5.8. I use it happily.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Breaking down barriers between SOHO and Standard (also the live CD)
Post by: newt on May 30, 2007, 09:27:38 pm
As soon as you start VASM, the first screen has
SKEL    Reset default settings

Just a quick clarification: User mode, not root mode.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Toe on May 30, 2007, 10:34:38 pm
We have had this idea since SOHO 5.0 development, known as vectelopment system.
Yeah, I was aware that my suggestions at least somewhat overlapped the Vectelopment idea.  But what I was never sure of was how much of that stuff was actually implemented, and how much is still done manually.  What all is still really needed?
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on June 01, 2007, 03:37:03 am
@ blurymind:

About the website, I remember there was discussion about a new one that UKBill was working on while the old boards were still working:

http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum1/index.php?topic=10192.msg59231#msg59231

The link in vector's post no longer works, but I still have a vague idea of what it looked like...was pretty neat. You may remember it too since you were already registered back then.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: blurymind on June 01, 2007, 08:07:35 am
@ blurymind:

About the website, I remember there was discussion about a new one that UKBill was working on while the old boards were still working:

http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum1/index.php?topic=10192.msg59231#msg59231

The link in vector's post no longer works, but I still have a vague idea of what it looked like...was pretty neat. You may remember it too since you were already registered back then.

I get "Forbiten" when i try to access the link in the first post. Is that Joomla?
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on June 01, 2007, 08:27:42 am
Yeah, it was, but it seems to be offline now. Wonder if anyone has a copy of it though....the WaybackMachine didn't have anything in its archives.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Kocil on June 01, 2007, 11:13:28 pm

Yeah, I was aware that my suggestions at least somewhat overlapped the Vectelopment idea.  But what I was never sure of was how much of that stuff was actually implemented, and how much is still done manually.  What all is still really needed?

Well, ... the state of vectelopment is still "Work if used by the creator, nobody else can use it"  ;D


Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: kazuya on June 11, 2007, 06:16:16 am
Like Blurrymind mentioned, not Beryl, but xorg upgrade to 7. Also a more robust slapt-get. But xorg upgrade has been my lacking in Vl for a while now.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: cintyram on July 10, 2007, 04:30:06 pm

Yeah, I was aware that my suggestions at least somewhat overlapped the Vectelopment idea.  But what I was never sure of was how much of that stuff was actually implemented, and how much is still done manually.  What all is still really needed?

Well, ... the state of vectelopment is still "Work if used by the creator, nobody else can use it"  ;D




Kocil,
 if you are referring to the text files you had prepared about how to create a new distro off of dynamite: they owrk:) i built VL once using that document as a guide.  But you are right, more work may need to go in there:)
cheers
ram
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: ekp on July 17, 2007, 08:23:51 pm
This is not on your list but I find that there is not enough difference in user interface from distro to distro.  Vector needs its own signature look ie PClinuxOS.  I know I am talking just aesthetics but KDE is getting pretty boring.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: OU812 on November 20, 2007, 10:16:03 am
I have installed vl-5.9 rc1 on my desktop and attempted to install on my laptop, both are older machines (~6 yrs old). Here are my thoughts:

1. Hardware detection - On the desktop I have an old matrox video card and a fairly old tangent panel monitor. VL had a hard time with the video settings, expecially in xfce. On the laptop I can't even get to boot. I tried several cheat codes and kernel options, but couldn't get it loaded.

2. GUI's - I would like to see vasm simplified and iconified. Dreamlinux and wolvix have some great looking system windows. A graphical installer would be nice, but other issues need to be addressed first perhaps.

3. Repos - Look pretty good, but ... For example, I could only find xfburn installed. I looked in the repo and could not find brasero or gnomebaker. Could not find them at linuxpackes or slacky. Couldn't find graveman either. I could install k3b but I don't want any kde components. Is bashburn my only option?

4. iso size - The iso seems to have grown to the size of soho. Any chance of taming it? Maybe target 500 mg?

Overall I like what I saw and am impressed at the growth of vl. The inclusion of fluxbox was a pleasant surprise as was what was achieved with the look of it. Hope to see some more growth on the final iso. Thanks.

john
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: lagagnon on November 20, 2007, 11:04:41 am
... I have an old matrox video card and a fairly old tangent panel monitor. VL had a hard time with the video settings,
I too have had problems with old Matrox cards. Just changing the Driver to "vesa" and/or the DefaultDepth from 24 to 16 works wonders for me.
Quote
I would like to see vasm simplified and iconified
Have you tried vasmcc on VL5.9RC1.7 ???
Quote
..I could only find xfburn installed. I looked in the repo and could not find brasero or gnomebaker. Could not find them at linuxpackes or slacky. Couldn't find graveman either. I could install k3b but I don't want any kde components.
Try VL5.9RC1.7, k3b is included. GnomeBaker and Brasero are NOT options for VL as they require too many Gnome libraries.
Quote
... iso size - The iso seems to have grown to the size of soho. Any chance of taming it? Maybe target 500 mg?
We're damned if we don't and damned if we do, it seems. Every single time we create a new distro we get requests for additional software, this time its k3b, Acrobat Reader, fluxbox (! see your comment) and jwm. Plus everyone wants all the standard stuff as well as 3 browsers!!! However, the installer gives you the option to not install a lot of software right off the bat, so you can get it to 500MB if you wish.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Witek Mozga on November 20, 2007, 01:56:04 pm
Why I like Vector Linux (and my suggestions for future releases)

1. fast installer (keep it text-based and don`t make LiveCD, follow Slackware`s "Keep it simple, stupid" rule. LiveCD will not make windows user to switch to VL. I think that linux generally is not designed for average-joe users but that`s my opinion anyway.)

2. SOHO and KDE comes with almost every application I need (so concentrate on SOHO which is fast and usable, especially konqueror with its ability to split windows and open sftp://, ftp:// or smb:// session in them - wonderful. I can easily add a samba printer in KDE, which I cannot under XFCE, digikam works much better for me than gtkam, etc. Open Office is the only competitor to MS Office, so if you want to target less geeky audience drop VL standard edition and concentrate on SOHO unless you add konqueror, k3b, OO and digikam to VL Standard :))

3.It has flash, java and codecs available out of the box and It has mplayer and mencoder and vlc.

What I don`t like in Vector Linux (and my suggestions for future releases)

4. Buggy VASM (this tool would be very useful but needs improvements)

5. Poor laptop support (wireless, hibernation etc). Laptops will dominate soon and this must be kept in mind.

6. Poor repository. I couldn`t find for example Skype for my SOHO 5.8 in VL repository and had to download  Slackware 11 version. This is minor problem if you want to target geeks who compile apps themselves, but less geeky users need better availability of packages. (Anyway, in future releases remain compatible with Slackware)
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: kc1di on November 20, 2007, 02:22:53 pm
I love the fluxbox DM wish it had it own config tool Like wbar also.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: easuter on November 20, 2007, 02:25:05 pm
wm, hibernation is already good-to-go in VL 5.9. AFAIK, TuxOnIce is patched into the kernel. That should allow full suspend-to-disk (at least it does on my laptop).

Wireless is a very sticky issue, but yeah it would be cool to have some sort of "automagical" tool for wireless networking in VL 6.0 (but without the need for tons of GNOME libraries and system resources, like NetworkManager requires).

About Skype: legally we can't distribute it. The Skype license forbids distributing the software via servers not affiliated with Skype in some way. Yeah, what a bummer, but its proprietary software, so meh....

About Vasm: please try VasmCC in VL 5.9 RC1.7 (http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4785.0), i think you will be pleasantly surprised. :)
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: lagagnon on November 20, 2007, 04:04:27 pm
I love the fluxbox DM wish it had it own config tool...

kc1di: There are some config tools around for Fluxbox. I tried two of them about 2 years ago but did not find they were that useful, given that the fluxbox config files are very easy to deal with. They are all in ~/.fluxbox and if you look a them you will see how straighforward it is to do things like change hotkeys, change the menu etc. Just an idea for you. Also there are numerous pre-supplied themes already loaded - if you go to the Fluxbox sub-menu they are all there. It is also very easy to add other Fluxbox themes. If you have trouble with any fluxbox config stuff I might be able to help you out.

PS: is your username your amateur radio callsign?, cuz it looks like one to me. I'm VE7EA by the way, if that matters.  ;) 73's

Larry
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: lagagnon on November 20, 2007, 04:23:58 pm
... Poor repository.
Check out our "New Package Requests" forum. If there is something you specifically would like that is not in our repository, or for which you could not find an appropriate Slack package at http://www.slackware.com or at http://www.linuxpackages.net then someone here on the forum might find the time to do it for you.

Also check out vlpackager. Makes it much easier to create your own VL package and then even share it with the rest of us!
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Witek Mozga on November 21, 2007, 12:57:07 am
... Poor repository.
Check out our "New Package Requests" forum. If there is something you specifically would like that is not in our repository, or for which you could not find an appropriate Slack package at http://www.slackware.com or at http://www.linuxpackages.net

That`s just what I do. I used Slackware for 4 years on desktop, then I found Vector and switched to it as I found it superior for desktop usage. I`d call it: Slackware for human beings  ;) I know how to compile and this is usualy my first approach but sometimes time is limiting and big fat repo would be helpful.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Witek Mozga on November 21, 2007, 01:11:32 am
About Skype: legally we can't distribute it. The Skype license forbids distributing the software via servers not affiliated with Skype in some way. Yeah, what a bummer, but its proprietary software, so meh....

I don`t understand this proprietary stuff sometimes. Ubuntu and Fedora do not include codecs and video drivers due to proprietary issues but Vector does. Skype forbids distributing via servers not affiliated but linuxpackages.net distributes it, confusing...  ???

About Vasm: please try VasmCC in

I ment that vasm is buggy as I found I can configure wireless interface only once with it. Then when I want to change some settings it ignores my attempts. I had to manualy change /etc/wireles files. I wrote here somewhere about my problems that I cannot configure wireless net via root account and I assumed that file permissions was in due, but I`m not sure what is exactly wrong.
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: lagagnon on November 21, 2007, 09:02:40 am
... and big fat repo would be helpful.
Do you have the "extras" repository enabled in gslapt?
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: M0E-lnx on November 21, 2007, 09:30:26 am

PS: is your username your amateur radio callsign?, cuz it looks like one to me. I'm VE7EA by the way, if that matters.  ;) 73's

Amateur radio callsign? ???
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Witek Mozga on November 21, 2007, 12:32:45 pm
Do you have the "extras" repository enabled in gslapt?

Yes, I checked 'extra' and 'testing' for SOHO 5.8
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: OU812 on November 23, 2007, 08:23:53 am
I understand what was said about not installing certain packages, but it would be nicer for me to download a smaller iso and install any extra packages later.

If I install the latest rc - VL5.9RC1.7 - would I be able to upgrade it the final version using gslapt or slapt-get?

Thanks.

john
Title: Re: The "Punch" for VL-6
Post by: Dweeberkitty on November 23, 2007, 10:10:15 am
I understand what was said about not installing certain packages, but it would be nicer for me to download a smaller iso and install any extra packages later.

If I install the latest rc - VL5.9RC1.7 - would I be able to upgrade it the final version using gslapt or slapt-get?

Thanks.

john

Theoretically yes.