VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: metvas on June 04, 2007, 09:23:06 pm

Title: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 04, 2007, 09:23:06 pm
Hello All:
Well, busy as usual today. I approached a community board (real people board), hear in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada. Here in Winnipeg we are known to be frugal or better yet just plain cheap. As a matter of fact we are so cheap we use our entire thermometer. Temperatures can go as high as +40’s Celsius with humidex added during summer and during winter to –40 Celsius in. Better have your woollies on when it gets that cold. Thankful for a high efficiency furnace and air conditioning. So money is hard to come by as donations to a project.
Enough of that, so anyway this board funds local community efforts worthy of mention and VL is worthy. I have always wanted a laptop with Windoze maybe Xpee or abouts and Vector Linux installed on a laptop so I could bring it with me when explaining Vector Linux to folks. School boards, Lions Club, Community Service Providers, all not for profit organizations. But could not afford it myself with all my current responsibilities to my family and VL.
I asked them to donate $ 1105.00 CDN or $1005.00 USD. They asked me to explain in layman’s language so I did the very best I could. They then said,” OK” but we want to see all this in action when you make the purchase!!!
I need to get the very best bang for these dollars. I looked at MadTux and came up with this configuration:
Specifications
-----------------------------------------------------------
Base unit                                              $699.00
Case                                                      $22.00
1 GB DDR Ram                                        $62.00
100 GB Hard Drive                                   $22.00
DVD-RW                                                $12.00
Core Duo T5500 1.66 GHz processor        $132.00
Shipping 5 days delivery                          $56.00
Grand total……………………………  .             $1005 US dollars
10% exchange rate to Canadian           $1105.50   
Wireless LAN embedded

I want the lower processor to demonstrate VL’s speed that was chosen on purpose. Most I will talk to will be at 3+ GHz.

Why Duo? Because Windoze Vista personal version will not run on 64 bit architecture, only the business version will for a few hundred $ more, sound familiar !!
So I need your help in deciding how to spend these precious dollars. I will not let this board down on this. I would rather return the donation to them.
If the above looks like the very best deal I will go with that. If you have ANY ideas now would be a REAL good time to let me know. No, Joes computer sales in Timbuk Too !!!  Must be well known or at least well knownby you. The local Lion’s Club will be my first presentation. Manitoba eWaste the second.
Thinking caps on ladies and gents, Help me help VL.
Best regards
Darrell

Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: bigpaws on June 04, 2007, 09:46:40 pm
You mentioned a laptop and the specs are for a Desktop.

Here is a laptop for you, local ad. This is typical type of price for a decent laptop.

http://staples.shoplocal.com/staples/default.aspx?action=detail&storeid=2278438&rapid=0&listingid=-2093198897&offerid= (http://staples.shoplocal.com/staples/default.aspx?action=detail&storeid=2278438&rapid=0&listingid=-2093198897&offerid=)

HTH

Bigpaws
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 04, 2007, 10:30:46 pm
Wait a bit, let me read Madtux again, sorry.
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 04, 2007, 10:38:06 pm
Check out this link, it is for a Ex-810 Notebook.I did notice that the HD was 5400 rpm will nedd 7200.
http://store.madtux.org/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=298 (http://store.madtux.org/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=298)
Thxs
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 04, 2007, 11:01:24 pm
Why Duo? Because Windoze Vista personal version will not run on 64 bit architecture, only the business version will for a few hundred $ more, sound familiar !!

Where did you hear this? It's definitely not correct. You can run any 32-bit version of Windows Vista on a 64-bit processor. A dual-core CPU counts as one processor. That's probably what confused you, or whoever told you that incorrect information. And if you want to have a 64-bit version of Vista, 64-bit versions are available in all versions from Home Basic on up. I wouldn't get 64-bit Vista at this time. It has strict driver requirements and 64-bit drivers are not widely available yet. Also, 64-bit Vista does not support 16-bit software, 32-bit Vista does.

The computer you've described sounds overpriced to me. I don't know what things cost in Canada, but now that the Canadian dollar (loonie?) is almost at parity with the American dollar, I have a hard time believing you can't find the deals similar to what you can find all the time in the US at the big box retailers (Circuit City, BestBuy, Staples, Office Depot, etc.) or online from Dell, Lenovo, and others. I see this in the current BestBuy sale paper for $650 US:
HP AMD Turion 64 X2 Dual-Core Mobile Technology TL-50, 1024 MB DDR2 memory, 120 GB hard drive, reads and writes dual-layer DVDs and CDs, nVidia GeForce G0 6150 graphics, 15.4" widescreen display, Windows Vista Home Premium.

Staples has an Acer laptop with just about the same specs for the same price.

When you get the laptop, you shrink the Windows partition with a tool that understands Vista (be careful about that) and install VL on the free space. You should have enough for both a VL Standard and a VL SOHO partition.

Quote
I want the lower processor to demonstrate VL’s speed that was chosen on purpose. Most I will talk to will be at 3+ GHz.

I would go with a faster processor. VL is very impressive on a high-speed computer--as long as the budget allows this.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 05, 2007, 12:11:12 am
Thanks, GrannyGeek:
Never even looked at a Vista package in the stroes. Never looked at an X Pee for that matter out of protest. When we, (my better half), and I walk in those stores I am always saying," don't even look at that sh---".Think I got that info from a M$ forum, not sure. Would want to stick with X Pee, as vista is too new and do not trust it. Here in Canada I looked a bit at the box stores no deals like that. maybe have to buy direct from a US supplier for the best deal. Thought of Madtux first as they are a partner. As for the lower speed actually want that as they, (the presentees), would have high end laptops for certain. It would be good for VL to match them with a 1.6 GHz. Maybe I am wrong on that was a thought only. I will top up any shortfall if necessary for the best we can get. Anyway the spellcheck had to check every wurd, time for bed.
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: The Headacher on June 05, 2007, 01:28:26 am
Quote
I want the lower processor to demonstrate VL’s speed that was chosen on purpose. Most I will talk to will be at 3+ GHz.

So, exactly how is a brand new box supposed to show VL's amazing speed? Every OS will be fast on a new computer. Isn't a dual 1.6 GHz  1.6 x 2= 3.2 GHz?
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: easuter on June 05, 2007, 01:32:35 am
Those specs look really good.
Whether or not you go for a top-end processor, any new processor bought today gives VL warp-speed  ;)

I'm interested in the embedded wireless card. Some wireless chips can be very troublesome to get working and would be nice to know which one it has to see if it works.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: bigpaws on June 05, 2007, 02:26:04 am
Quote
Isn't a dual 1.6 GHz  1.6 x 2= 3.2 GHz?

The answer is no. Multiple processors work in a threaded
array not in a straight line. So you can not go past 1.6 GHz.

Bigpaws
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: LLL on June 05, 2007, 04:52:21 am
Assumed you will be making presentations on VL's abilities to serve named groups.

Aside from OS performance/stability, affordability is an obvious sell - but how will you, with your *new* computer, demonstrate the fact that VL will not force them to buy new hardware?

If that's a goal, we should get creative...simply "telling them" may be enough, but demonstration is powerful, as you obviously are aware ;)

Have fun! Well done! :)

LLL
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: saulgoode on June 05, 2007, 06:44:30 am
Perhaps the Dell Ubuntu laptop (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V440&l=en&oc=DNCWEL1&s=dhs) would be worth investigating. If you opt for the T5300, the DVD/RW, the 7200RPM 100G HD), and additional 512M of RAM the final price is under $900. The fact that the 'puter can run Ubuntu should offer some comfort level about its hardware's Linux compatibility.

If you goal is to impress, getting a 7200RPM HD is important regardless of what model you choose.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: The Headacher on June 05, 2007, 06:46:54 am
Quote
Isn't a dual 1.6 GHz  1.6 x 2= 3.2 GHz?

The answer is no. Multiple processors work in a threaded
array not in a straight line. So you can not go past 1.6 GHz.

Bigpaws
I knew I my logic was flawed (I don't have much knowledge about cpu's), I was just trying to say that
1.6 dualcore turion64 > 1.6 singlecore turion64 > some other processors.

That computer doesn't look like a slow thing, don't judge it just by the amount of MHz. Of course nowadays you can buy more powerful laptops if you have more money, but it doesn't make this one underpowered for normal use or bad value. If you're going to game or do other 3d stuff on that thing the nvidia card might be a bit underpowered, but that isn't the processors fault :). This looks like the computer I might buy today if I where looking for a new laptop and it would be withing my budget, as I want an nvidia card in my laptop. I would go for one with a slightly better nvidia card if available within budget though, as I like gaming.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 05, 2007, 10:20:10 am
Please remember that the folks i will be presenting to will have a minimum of 3GHz it will be Government including School boards, and non-profit organizations. I am assuming here but 1.6 GHz should be ancient to them. They will not have to purchase new computers as their's will be, "newer", than my new one. That is the whole idea to show to non-techies a 1.6 GHz can compete with a 3.2 GHz with Linux installed.  That they will understand. The Windoze partion is to boot into a familiar environment visually, then shut down and boot into Linux in front of them so they can visually understand what I will be trying to convey visually as there tech savvy is likely to be minimal. No sense in talking tech Most will not understand ANYTHING PAST BOOTING INTO.... I may as well be talking Chinese
This is the idea, simplified visual presentation. If you see my intention, and see a flaw in it please point that out. This will be a one time effort and once set up has to be practiced by me over and over until I can do it with eyes closed, yet convey the message accurately, simply and professionally.
Thxs for you input and advice.
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 05, 2007, 10:27:26 am
Hi easuter:
Here is the link to the specs.
http://store.madtux.org/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=298 (http://store.madtux.org/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=298)
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: rbistolfi on June 05, 2007, 11:05:10 am
I think in a standard install of VL the cpu speed will be not a factor, everything with more than 1.6ghz and 512mb of Ram will work fast as ligth. May be you should focus in that wireless card and the hole chipset compatibility. Just my 0.00002
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Joe1962 on June 05, 2007, 11:42:03 am
As a sidenote, any Core Duo chip will beat the pants off a hyperthreaded P4 of 3.2 GHz and more. Now if you were referring to Core 2 Duos of over 3 GHz, that's something else, but I'm not sure right now if the desktop dual core's are already at those clock speeds.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: never_stop_learning on June 05, 2007, 01:40:42 pm
The MadTux laptop certainly has sufficient processor/RAM/HDD/etc. resources to accomplish the task at hand. I agree with GrannyGeek that you can get more machine for less money at one of the 'big box' outfits.

HOWEVER..... Does it enhance Vector's relationship with MadTux to purchase the laptop from them since they are offering computers with Vector pre-loaded?
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 05, 2007, 02:01:29 pm
I, strongly agree. Cannot ignore those who partner with us. The cost would have to be substantual otherwise. A deal is a deal only when everyone wins.
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 05, 2007, 08:49:34 pm
I am assuming here but 1.6 GHz should be ancient to them. They will not have to purchase new computers as their's will be, "newer", than my new one. That is the whole idea to show to non-techies a 1.6 GHz can compete with a 3.2 GHz with Linux installed.  That they will understand.

But if they already have 3 GHz computers, why should they care that a slower computer can compete? It's irrelevant to them.

I'd concentrate on showing that they can do the same things on a Linux machine as they can on Windows. Then go into the practical advantages, such as that you don't have those license restrictions that make you buy a copy for every computer and that you have much more safety in the dangerous world of viruses, worms, trojans, and spyware. Stress the multiuser aspect--they can set up user accounts for their children that won't allow the kids to mess up the whole computer if they click on the wrong thing, and the kids can't modify and delete system files.

Do let us know how it goes when you actually make the presentation.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 05, 2007, 10:03:40 pm
OK here is the beginning of it. They will have their machine on and running probably Windoze XP. I will boot into windows XP in front of them. Then re-boot into Vector wireless working and all.
Ask them to open Word X app. then I open OO. We llookk at the various features each one has and how oo can produce anything Word can.open save and close do this a few times with different apps. Then send them an email it with an oo attachment the attachment probably won't open with XP in any format other than Word format. Then they send the same email but with the .doc in OO format and it opens with OO running Linux. From there they have participated and visually experienced something odd. That is where we can begin to explain some of the features of MS Word as not being open software and proprietary. Vector Linux is open source and  not proprietary. This would make it a lot easier for someone not tech savvy to understand  what is being presented to them. All this on a processor that is half the speed of their own, talk about costs, talk a lot about that ,talk about how they may very well be running Linux based software on their servers, Apache. How Vector Can breath life into machines they would think obsolete. Remember these are businesses even though they may be not for profit or Government, they must perceive this presentation as professional, polished, worth their time and worth exploring further. That will be the protocol they expect to be treated by
That is it.

I have thought about this for a long time. How to communicate a complex subject to a no- tech person. So there I made my first presentation. To you, albeit abridged radically. How did you like it.
Regards
Darrell
Title: input
Post by: The Headacher on June 06, 2007, 12:09:56 am
It is not a slow processor! You can't just trick everybody by saying "hey, this is a 1,6 ghz laptop" without mentioning it's a dual core, that's just not right.

It's like saying "this Mazda Rx-8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rx8) has only a 1.3 liter engine" without mentioning it's a Wankel engine, which produces some 250 horse power because it works different than a normal piston engine.

Just because you don't plan on talking to techies doesn't mean you won't occasionally run into one, they might not be tricked by this deceit.
If you want to show them just what VL can really do, compare vl to xp on a p3 700 or something (lower would be acceptable too, but the presentation might take too much time ;D).

Please understand I do support what you're trying to do, and I'm sure it's going to work out just fine :-*.
You are in a far better position to judge what is needed or not, but you asked for input remember ;)?
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 06, 2007, 05:15:40 am
I think in a standard install of VL the cpu speed will be not a factor, everything with more than 1.6ghz and 512mb of Ram will work fast as ligth. May be you should focus in that wireless card and the hole chipset compatibility. Just my 0.00002

My recommendation (if there really will be a full GB of DDR RAM), is to run Xfce4, or something even lighter like IceWM or WindowMaker, and show how many programs can run concurrently without dragging the system down. It's not at all an esoteric metric; there have been instances where I had a number of applications open in XP at school. And in Winders, it tends to slow down pretty fast.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 06, 2007, 07:19:16 am
There is no need to apologize for putting your thoughts down here, none. How else could I get a "feel", for all of this without others input. It is not supposed to be the same as mine, that is how you get feedback to examine your original idea with.
If I was fearful of criticism and feedback + or - this forum would not exist. Nor in all probability VL in its present model.
Thanks for taking the time. I would never have thought of that.
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 06, 2007, 11:23:08 am
Ask them to open Word X app. then I open OO. We llookk at the various features each one has and how oo can produce anything Word can.open save and close do this a few times with different apps.

Be careful about that "produce anything" part. I don't use Word and I have a great dislike of OOo and use it only when I have no other choice, and my uses are not very demanding. However, judging by what I've heard from others who are heavy users of Word and have also worked with OOo, there *are* some things Word can do that OOo can't. Also, OOo users report that OOo doesn't open *every* Word doc accurately, so it's best not to be too emphatic about the equivalence of Word and OOo. Better to say "most" rather than "all."

Quote
Then send them an email it with an oo attachment the attachment probably won't open with XP in any format other than Word format. Then they send the same email but with the .doc in OO format and it opens with OO running Linux. From there they have participated and visually experienced something odd.

Here you've lost me. If you send an OOo attachment in OOo's format, Word won't open it. But so what? How many OOo attachments is the average office user likely to get? What they get are DOC attachments, which is why OOo and any other MS Office alternative has to be able to open DOC documents.

The elephant in the room, which you've completely ignored, is that OpenOffice is available for WINDOWS as well as Linux, and I dare say there are probably many more Windows users of OOo than Linux users. So what you're demonstrating is the usefulness of OOo regardless of platform. You're not making a case for Linux by this OOo demonstration. Someone who has OOo installed in Windows can do the same thing.

In fact, as I was thinking about the programs I use most often in Linux, I noticed that most of them are also available for Windows: Opera, Firefox, SeaMonkey, OOo, SoftMaker Office (TextMaker and PlanMaker), Scribus, Gimp, Inkscape, Picasa, RealPlayer, Adobe Reader. If I were not a Linux user and didn't know much about Linux, you wouldn't convince me to take a look at Linux by demonstrating the advantages of applications I can use in Windows if I want to. And unless the Linux application did things my Windows application couldn't, I wouldn't see any reason for changing because I wouldn't want to go through a new learning curve.

The real value of a demo such as you describe is that it shows that Linux is not an alien world, that the user can work pretty much the same way he or she does in Windows, that the screen looks familiar and is attractive, that documents produced in Linux can be easily shared with Windows users and vice versa.

Quote
All this on a processor that is half the speed of their own, talk about costs, talk a lot about that ,talk about how they may very well be running Linux based software on their servers, Apache.

Apache isn't really "Linux based software." It's *open source* software, which is not the same thing. There are free downloads of Apache for Unix and for Win32.

It would be dishonest to mislead folks by implying that "open source" means "Linux." Showing that open-source software can do the things they do every day, do it well, and do it in a familiar, non-geeky way is the first step. The next step is explaining why Linux has advantages that make a move from Windows worthwhile.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 06, 2007, 11:50:12 am
Ask them to open Word X app. then I open OO. We llookk at the various features each one has and how oo can produce anything Word can.open save and close do this a few times with different apps.

Be careful about that "produce anything" part. I don't use Word and I have a great dislike of OOo and use it only when I have no other choice, and my uses are not very demanding. However, judging by what I've heard from others who are heavy users of Word and have also worked with OOo, there *are* some things Word can do that OOo can't. Also, OOo users report that OOo doesn't open *every* Word doc accurately, so it's best not to be too emphatic about the equivalence of Word and OOo. Better to say "most" rather than "all."

Well, Word can't produce PDF, and PowerPoint can't produce SWF. MS Office is not really a superset of what OO can do.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 06, 2007, 12:48:21 pm
Hi:
Please try to remember that not a lot of folks even know OO exists, let alone be familiar with it. Little bit like the net. Last time I heard this was about six month ago. "80% of the population of the planet does not even know it exits."
Remember new users. Not experienced in either Windoze or Linux. As for Apache, one quantum technology leap at a time would probably be the best route. No smoke and mirrors here just facts. Shown SIMPLY...
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 06, 2007, 12:50:58 pm
Hi:
Please try to remember that not a lot of folks even know OO exists, let alone be familiar with it. Little bit like the net. Last time I heard this was about six month ago. "80% of the population of the planet does not even know it exits."
Remember new users. Not experienced in either Windoze or Linux. As for Apache, one quantum technology leap at a time would probably be the best route. No smoke and mirrors here just facts. Shown SIMPLY...
Regards
Darrell

Of note:

Apache runs significantly better under the platforms for which it was originally intended.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: rbistolfi on June 06, 2007, 02:44:50 pm
Another sidenote about the MS Word thing: the scenario will change with the Office 2007 release. This a complete makeover  of the suite with a lot of improvement. I think Office will be the true weapon of MS and not Vista. The more significant change is the famous change in the file format, the great weakness of the older releases, made over the base of open source formats!
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 06, 2007, 09:32:50 pm
Please try to remember that not a lot of folks even know OO exists, let alone be familiar with it.

I understand that. My point was that demonstrating OOo isn't making a case for Linux because OOo is available for Windows, too. Switching to OOo doesn't mean someone has to change their operating system.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 06, 2007, 09:37:04 pm
Well, Word can't produce PDF, and PowerPoint can't produce SWF. MS Office is not really a superset of what OO can do.

Free PDF creators are readily available for Windows and using them is simply selecting the PDF creator printer driver. But even if they weren't, OOo's PDF creation ability is also in the Windows version. It's not just a Linux thing, and thus is not an argument for switching to Linux.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 06, 2007, 11:05:01 pm
OK, I think I understand your reservations and appreciate all the feedback. The intention is to display proprietary vs non-proprietary visually, in a way that almost anyone could understand. If anyone has any ideas of how to accomplish this please lets discuss it further. Always remembering you must accomplish this task with very little tech-talk, that won't mean anything to most I am trying to target. would probably intimidate them there is where you loose their interest, and everything else you are trying to accomplish. Think of the least knowledgeable computer person you ever met and explain this subject to them, that is how it must be presented.
ideas?
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 06, 2007, 11:58:24 pm
The intention is to display proprietary vs non-proprietary visually, in a way that almost anyone could understand.

I think I'd work on the cost angle. Demonstrate that OOo can open (most) MS Office files just fine. If you're going to be sending them files to try out at your demo, create files in OOo, save them in MS Office format, and have them open the files in MS Office on their computers. When they see that the *free* OOo office suite can do everything most people do in MS Office, and in addition can create PDFs and Flash, that can make a major impact. MS Office is very expensive; OOo costs nothing and they can install it on as many computers as they want.

They are now softened up for the Linux pitch.<g> "Notice how nice my desktop looks. See how easy it is to use. And guess what? Those viruses, trojans, worms, and spyware you're always trying to prevent in Windows don't run on Linux. You don't need the latest and greatest hardware to get good performance with VectorLinux. And you can try it out for free and can continue to use it on as many computers as you like--though we hope you'll support VL's continued development by purchasing a Deluxe CD for a modest amount."

Quote
Think of the least knowledgeable computer person you ever met and explain this subject to them, that is how it must be presented.

I deal with those people all the time. :)
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: lagagnon on June 07, 2007, 08:55:41 am
...Think of the least knowledgeable computer person you ever met and explain this subject to them, that is how it must be presented.

I have clients who don't even know where to look for the power button on their computer case....it then becomes very difficult to explain how a web browser works!  ;)
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 07, 2007, 10:10:09 am
Yes, therein lay the challenge. that is why i started this thread, and why the laptop would prove to be indispensable in this endeavor.
Visual participation is the only option as far a I am concerned. Not that all will be at this level but if only one is, that person also must be accommodated.
Keep the ideas flowing.
thanks much
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 07, 2007, 12:35:40 pm
Well, Word can't produce PDF, and PowerPoint can't produce SWF. MS Office is not really a superset of what OO can do.

Free PDF creators are readily available for Windows and using them is simply selecting the PDF creator printer driver. But even if they weren't, OOo's PDF creation ability is also in the Windows version. It's not just a Linux thing, and thus is not an argument for switching to Linux.
--GrannyGeek

Security, the hardware/software upgrade treadmill, and price (gouging) are a few useful considerations though.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Masta on June 07, 2007, 12:50:11 pm
Can I have it when you're done with it?  ;D  :D
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 07, 2007, 03:18:33 pm
masta:
You will be welcome to it. Warning will be awhile before I am finished with it. Must be patient. Real patient....
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 07, 2007, 09:52:29 pm
Security, the hardware/software upgrade treadmill, and price (gouging) are a few useful considerations though.

I'm not saying Linux doesn't have advantages over Windows. My point is that OOo isn't an argument for those Linux advantages.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 07, 2007, 09:57:07 pm
I have clients who don't even know where to look for the power button on their computer case

You're describing GrampaGeek. I'm not kidding.

Quote
....it then becomes very difficult to explain how a web browser works!  ;)

GrampaGeek uses a browser, but he doesn't know what a browser is.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 07, 2007, 10:36:08 pm
What do you mean I don't know what trousers are. I know what they are..Shheeesh. Just kidding. lol
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Masta on June 08, 2007, 01:06:21 am
masta:
You will be welcome to it. Warning will be awhile before I am finished with it. Must be patient. Real patient....
Regards
Darrell

I suddenly picture myself setting on the top of a mountain , out in the middle of nowhere, sporting the look of a 3 meter long snowy white beard, and holding myself upright with a hand made cane carved from wood......    :D
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: saulgoode on June 08, 2007, 06:00:13 am
What is the intended usage for your audience? Are they considering Linux for personal use, a small business office, medium-sized school, large factory, volunteer organization...?

In general, if your clients are interested in using their computers in a multi-user environment, stress how Linux has been designed from the very beginning for that task. Emphasize how a user is limited to only screwing up his own data -- how he is prevented from destroying anyone else's and how he can't "take down" the system itself.

In a similar vein, provide some anecdotes about companies and organizations whose employees (or staff) have installed unlicensed software and this has resulted in audits, threats of litigation, and oftentimes the "settlement" that they upgrade their entire operation to Microsoft's (or "Company X's") latest software (the case of Ernie Ball (http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html) is a fine example; and might be worth providing printouts of that interview to your audience). This topic might be a little ham-fisted, depending upon your audience, so you might wish to put things a little more delicately than I have here.

If your clients are involved in "production" at all, point out the multiple providers of Linux and remind them how undesirable it is to have their company's livelihood dependent on a sole-source supply (I wrote a longer description of this on the old VL forums (http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum1/index.php?topic=11700.msg67520#msg67520) a while back).

Depending on the target market, I would promote the networking potential of Linux. Enable your home computer to permit remote X logins from the Internet (with appropriate security) and during your presentation, open a display logged into your home machine and demonstrate how you can switch between the two using CTL+ALT+Fn. Be sure to emphasize how secure the implementation is:  accounts have to be authorized, all data transceiving is encrypted, and even limit the login to a single port.

Along the same lines, give one (or more) of your audience members a LIVE bootdisk configured to be a thin-client and let them log into your "display model" and demonstrate how they might turn some of their "obsolete" Pentiums into graphics terminals at minimal cost.

Above all, you need to cater your presentation to your audience; much of what I suggested might not apply to your situation and could even serve to put off your audience. You will also wish to indicate that some of the things I suggested would require expert assistance to set up.

EDIT: You might also consider installing Qemu or VirtualBox on your machine and installing WinXP as a virtual machine. It might be impressive to Windows user to see their entire system being run as an application under Linux.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: retired1af on June 08, 2007, 06:19:25 am
If you're going to be working with government entities, you're going up against one of the largest behomouths that you could ever hope to convince. Some things to keep in mind:

1. Most government agencies can't just get things down at the local market. They have a strict set of rules they must abide by when purchasing anything. If it's not in their purchasing catalog, most likely, they're not going to get it because of the hoops they have to jump through in order to justify the purchase.

2. Government agencies save everything. This means you are going to be working with not only Word documents, but documents created with other word processor programs as well. Remember Wordstar and WordPerfect?

3. You will be given the most unrealistic and unfair tests to pass in order to get through the bean counters.

4. Not only do you have to convince the users, management, AND those that hold the purse strings, you also need to remember the additional costs required to train the tech support staff to support a new OS. And if the Canadian government is anything like the US government, that's going to be a difficult hurdle to get over. Most agencies want to standardize. This reduces overall costs not only in purchasing, but also support. Cookie cutter solutions is the thing to keep in mind here.  When I worked support, everyone got the same exact box, same exact setup (we imaged new machines as soon as they came in). This made it much easier to support 10,000 users.

Take a lot of aspirin with you to these presentations. You're gonna need it!  ;D

Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: rbistolfi on June 08, 2007, 07:47:02 am
Exelent post Saulgoode! I think you nail it. Just want to add this: If your target is volunteer organizations, could be a nice idea to talk a little about the open source philosophy.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 08, 2007, 08:15:40 am
Take a lot of aspirin with you to these presentations. You're gonna need it!  ;D

Just be careful with that aspirin. It seems innocuous, but a sufficiently high dose can cause liver toxicity.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: newt on June 08, 2007, 12:04:30 pm
Take a lot of aspirin with you to these presentations. You're gonna need it!  ;D

Just be careful with that aspirin. It seems innocuous, but a sufficiently high dose can cause liver toxicity.
On the same note beware of the amount of water you drink to take the aspirin since high amounts of water can cause water toxicity and prove to be fatal.

Couldn't resist ;D

BTW, saulgoode has some fantastic ideas on your presentation - very good points and well thought out.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 08, 2007, 12:21:52 pm
Take a lot of aspirin with you to these presentations. You're gonna need it!  ;D

Just be careful with that aspirin. It seems innocuous, but a sufficiently high dose can cause liver toxicity.
On the same note beware of the amount of water you drink to take the aspirin since high amounts of water can cause water toxicity and prove to be fatal.

The dosage is a lot different. For water, you'd have to drink many liters before onset of illness (due to severe imbalance of electrolytes). Aspirin or acetaminophen (which is a little different) is significantly easier to overdose on, and can cause acute or chronic illness as a result.
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: metvas on June 08, 2007, 02:01:02 pm
Sssooo...suck it up,, and don't drink the water. Hmmmm maybe better re-think this project.
Darrell
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: Masta on June 08, 2007, 02:23:56 pm
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: What to do??? Need everyones input
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 08, 2007, 07:30:24 pm
Another point about trying to get government entities to switch to Linux:
A lot of government agencies have strict rules about accessibility for people with all kinds of handicaps. Some of these require voice recognition for operating a computer or other adaptations for people with handicaps.

I know nothing about what's available for Linux, but in reading discussions among people who *do* know about this, it seems Linux isn't there yet. Voice recognition has to be deep and available as a system function. The deficiencies of Linux in this regard have kept some government entities from adopting Linux.

Just so you're prepared in case the topic comes up...
--GrannyGeek