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The nuts and bolts => Non-Linux Technical => Topic started by: JohnB316 on June 11, 2007, 05:56:15 pm

Title: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: JohnB316 on June 11, 2007, 05:56:15 pm
I learned today that Apple has released a beta of their latest version of the Safari web browser for Windoze. I'm using it now on a Win2K partition. It seems to work nicely to this point. Apple states that it needs WinXP or Vista to work, but it also works on Win2K. It would be interesting to see whether Apple ports Safari to Linux. Probably won't happen, but...

FWIW,
John
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: easuter on June 11, 2007, 06:06:32 pm
Quote
It would be interesting to see whether Apple ports Safari to Linux. Probably won't happen, but...

Probably not, since Safari uses a modified version of Konqueror's KHTML engine (which they very magnanimously released to the Konqueror devs thanks to the GPL  :P).

I am surprised that Apple are releasing a version for Windows...didn't see that coming  :)
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Joe1962 on June 12, 2007, 04:38:38 am
Damned Apple went and did it for Winders, when it should have been way easier and also shown more appreciation, to have done it for the BSDs and Linux first, seeing as they used khtml... >:(

BTW, it is worse than pre-alpha software. Haven't gone more than 2 minutes with it on any attempt. Crashes by doing just about anything, even clicking on the bookmarks icon.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Precursor on June 12, 2007, 05:38:20 am
BTW, it is worse than pre-alpha software. Haven't gone more than 2 minutes with it on any attempt. Crashes by doing just about anything, even clicking on the bookmarks icon.

Don't ask how Firefox and Opera is working under Windows Vista 32bit version. >:(
I bought Fujitsu-siemens Amilo series laptop 5 weeks ago with Vista preinstalled.Since 2 or 3 critical updates which I've done 2 weeks ago all internet browsers crashes minimum twice per hour expect Explorer 7.Isn't normal?  ;)
I don't wanna even think about Safari stability on Windows platform.

Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Precursor on June 12, 2007, 05:42:56 am
I am surprised that Apple are releasing a version for Windows...didn't see that coming  :)
I'm not really suprised.Since I Pod things Apple started new marketing activity which is developing any possible solution for increasing amount of money.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: easuter on June 13, 2007, 05:27:44 am
Here is a humorous article from The Inquirer, as usual:

http://theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40266
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: easuter on June 19, 2007, 04:08:43 am
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,39287595,00.htm

Apparently Steve Jobs thinks this Safari release for Windows will bring Safari's market share to a quarter of the browser market... :o :o ::)

Well, he's also the guy who said the Segway would be "as big a deal as the PC" (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660,00.html).  :D :D
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: The Headacher on June 19, 2007, 04:37:14 am
That guy needs a reality check. The segway is a(n expensive) toy, their crappy browser is a crappy browser, that's all there is to it.

The majority of Wind OS users don't seem to care about using an alternative browser instead of IE, those that do already have plenty of choice. If he honestly believes that browser can get 25% market share he probably also believes in fairytales.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on July 15, 2007, 10:59:11 am
Unfortunately, the Segway is a waste. A man built a self-balancing scooter for a fraction of the price:

http://tlb.org/scooter.html

Nice hack, but even so, self-balancing scooters are pretty pointless when you can add a third wheel.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: saulgoode on July 15, 2007, 01:23:14 pm
The majority of Wind OS users don't seem to care about using an alternative browser instead of IE, those that do already have plenty of choice. If he honestly believes that browser can get 25% market share he probably also believes in fairytales.

The majority of the Windows users I deal with do not even know what a webbrowser is (bravo, Bill). Suggesting that they can use something other than IE, I am met with blank stares (and at that point I abandon any hope for their salvation).
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on July 15, 2007, 01:26:44 pm
The majority of Wind OS users don't seem to care about using an alternative browser instead of IE, those that do already have plenty of choice. If he honestly believes that browser can get 25% market share he probably also believes in fairytales.

The majority of the Windows users I deal with do not even know what a webbrowser is (bravo, Bill). Suggesting that they can use something other than IE, I am met with blank stares (and at that point I abandon any hope for their salvation).

It's really easy:

1) Install Firefox
2) Label Firefox on teh desktop 'Internet Explorer'
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on July 15, 2007, 01:45:49 pm
It's really easy:

1) Install Firefox
2) Label Firefox on teh desktop 'Internet Explorer'

LOL I did that on my father's computer. I think that is forgiven by the Moses Table though  ;D.
Asa Dotzler (the spread ff project leader) visited Argentina recently, the spread firefox project looks very active. I dont know about the results  ???, but Firefox owns the 20% of the market, which is pretty good given the ie advantages (preinstalled in almost every computer). I dont know if the spread ff project has something to do with that though. The hanimizzle tactic could really work if a lot of people makes a commitment with it, I am with you, I will install ff on every computer I can, at nights.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: GrannyGeek on July 15, 2007, 05:21:17 pm
I am not a Firefox lover. It's Opera all the way here. When I use Firefox I'm constantly missing features Opera has that Firefox doesn't, or that you need Firefox extensions to get.

I like IE much less than Firefox, though. Unfortunately, I still run across Web sites that don't work with anything but IE. I usually send a complaint to the Webmaster. Maybe if enough of us do that, they'll drop the proprietary stuff.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: GrannyGeek on July 15, 2007, 05:30:20 pm
The majority of the Windows users I deal with do not even know what a webbrowser is (bravo, Bill).

I wouldn't blame Bill for that. My husband is one of those who doesn't know what a browser is. If I tell him to start the browser, he gives me a blank stare. He's not much of a computer user and since he does e-mail or reads a Web page only after I've got the browser up, he's using Linux and Opera, not Windows and IE. He's probably way more typical of computer users than almost everyone on this board.

Hey, people don't even know what OS they're using, much less what an operating system is. On forums where I do online support we ask people "what version of Windows are you using" and more likely than not, they say "Microsoft Word." :(
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Lyn on July 16, 2007, 12:47:21 am
Hey, people don't even know what OS they're using, much less what an operating system is. On forums where I do online support we ask people "what version of Windows are you using" and more likely than not, they say "Microsoft Word." :(
--GrannyGeek

I can verify that!  Used to be regularly told by people that their operating system was Windows 97 - meaning that they were running MS Office 97!  When I was still an IT instructor the European Computer Driving License had a module that could best be described as an introduction to computers, where the idea of an operating system was introduced as distinct from application software.  Many students just couldn't understand the distinction and took a long time to get their heads round the concept.  Ask a person what web browser they are running and you get the answer, "its a Dell".   Unfortunately people don't understand the basics, but then on another level why should they, a computer is a tool, if it gets the job done then what does it matter if they don't know their browser from the make of the computer builder?
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: carsten on July 16, 2007, 01:53:41 am
Be honest  :D
If I would ask you for details of the automotive unit of your car, how many can tell me details about Otto, Diesel, Common rail, Fuel injection, RamAir, disc brakes, TC, ESP, AAIJG etc.
You want to turn the key (or push a start button) and give the direction and the car has to deal with the rest. Same goes for the majority of computer users, they want a tool to help them things done. Fiddling with the tool is not their purpose nor interest.
Thats also big chance to spread for Linux. Nobody (except us neerds) really cares which OS is running if its runnig fine and not bothering me. And honestly, sometimes I really regret that I have spent so many hours tweaking my computer just to have it running (for no specific purpose) instead of spending the time with my kids.
Carsten
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: The Headacher on July 16, 2007, 05:34:20 am
Quote from: Lyn
When I was still an IT instructor the European Computer Driving License had a module that could best be described as an introduction to computers, where the idea of an operating system was introduced as distinct from application software.  Many students just couldn't understand the distinction and took a long time to get their heads round the concept.
That's pretty sad, and probably a direct result of the way computers are sold lately. Back when you got yourself a computer with DOS on it it was a lot more obvious.

Quote from: Lyn
Unfortunately people don't understand the basics, but then on another level why should they, a computer is a tool, if it gets the job done then what does it matter if they don't know their browser from the make of the computer builder?
"The computer as a tool" is just a lame way to say you don't want to learn working with your computer. Much like a craftsman has to clean, oil, sharpen or modify certain tools you have to learn how to use and take care of your "tool". It's not just a tool though; it's one of the most versatile tools ever built. Even more versatile than a Swiss army knife ;) . It's so versatile that it can't do a much useful without a program that tells it what to do and how to do it.

A computer can't just magically "surf the web", no matter what make it is. it needs the right software to do so (amongst which a browser). If you say Dell is your browser you are either too afraid to admit you don't have a clue what it is or too lazy to find it out. That is not necessarily a bad thing, except if you're looking for support.

That being said I dislike the word "browser" as it doesn't clearly state what it does, it's a bit of a techie word. Perhaps we (the more computer literate) shouldn't be asking people what browser they're using, but "what program they're using to surf the internet".

Quote
If I would ask you for details of the automotive unit of your car, how many can tell me details about Otto, Diesel, Common rail, Fuel injection, RamAir, disc brakes, TC, ESP, AAIJG etc.
Egg-squeeze me, but the things you are now asking for are of a completely different type than "what OS are you using", which is more like "what sort of engine is in there", I'm sure most people will know if it's a 1.6 4 cylinder that takes gasoline or a 2.5 liter TurboDiesel. That being said, if I had a car I could answer these questions. I think todays cars are still evil gas guzzlers though, so I'll avoid getting one as long as possible.

Quote
Fiddling with the tool is not their purpose nor interest.
People tend to treat a computer as something like a radio, just turn it on and it should work. But even on a radio you'll see fiddling going on, searching for another station, changing bass/treble, perhaps more advanced surround settings too. It isn't a radio though. A radio can do just one thing and hardly ever fails in doing so. A desktop computer on the other hand is meant to do a whole lot of things at virtually the same time, and without proper setting up will fail doing some or all of it.  This means there are a lot of ways for it to not function properly. Even though fiddling is not their purpose or interest it is in their interest to have it set up properly (note: I don't fiddle for the sake of fiddling either).

I have to say I got some of my friends to understand that Linux is an operating system, and so is Windows XP. I try not to talk too much about computers with them though, most of them are not very good with computers and use it as some of the typical users described earlier this thread.
I do occasionally help some of them to set up their windows computers. They don't have an internet connection to find out the cause and solutions to their problems. Without this internet connection it's a lot easier to keep their boxes running without much trouble though. But I bet they'd be more advanced users by now if they did have an internet connection.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: exeterdad on July 16, 2007, 05:47:07 am
The guy who invented the Segway lives not too far from me.  He is a uber Geek.  He has a huge wind machine on his property.  The kind that harness's the wind to create power.  Pretty cool toy.  Not like he needs the savings from the free electricity.  That thing can be heard for miles.  He flies to work every day from his home.  It's only a 45 minute drive.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on July 16, 2007, 06:00:40 am
Quote
It's so versatile that it can't do a much useful without a program that tells it what to do and how to do it.

Nice...
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on July 16, 2007, 01:45:53 pm
You can damage your car by not doing proper maintenance on it, or by not knowing what you're doing, just as you can with a Windows PC.  Just this morning I got a call from a guy who wants me to help him with his computer ... he got a pop-up telling him he need a virus scan on his computer, he clicked yes, and *BOOM* suddenly his machine is infected with some virus which Norton can't remove.  I told him not to do stuff like that, but as usual he ignored me.  This is the same guy, who when I tell him he needs to update his security software, use something other than IE, etc., just rolls his eyes at me because he's bored with me being too technical.  I told him this time he has to call the Geek Squad, because I'm tired of him not following basic safety and security.

The difference between a car and a Windows computer is that if you don't change your oil, you end up with a seized engine, whereas with a Windows machine if you get a virus you end up part of a botnet, which harms the rest of us.

People tell me all the time how great Windows is, that they've never had a problem with it, etc. etc., but I call bs on this because it may be all right for people who know what they're doing, but for those who don't, it's a disaster for them and the rest of us.

Sorry for the rant ... I'm just in a bad mood because this guy wanted me to save him from his own carelessnes.

Safari for Windows?  Sounds good.  I'm sure when Apple comes out with the final version it will be nice.

Oh, and GrannyGeek, I can understand why you use Opera over Firefox, but I personally use FLOSS whenever possible.  Having said that, Opera is made by a good company that I can respect.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: GrannyGeek on July 16, 2007, 09:17:31 pm
Unfortunately people don't understand the basics, but then on another level why should they, a computer is a tool, if it gets the job done then what does it matter if they don't know their browser from the make of the computer builder?

I go back and forth. Sometimes I agree completely with the Lyn's statement. I am thrilled that "the masses" can now use computers. I would never want to go back to the way things were in 1987, when I first started using a computer in total ignorance. In those days you practically had to become initiated into the High Priesthood in order to use a computer, and this granted you a certain amount of prestige and some awe from people who didn't use or understand computers. As computers became easier to use, some members of the High Priesthood couldn't conceal their distress at their loss of status. Mere ignorant mortals could now do all kinds of things with their computers--perish the thought! Linux provided a place for these High Priesthood refugees to regroup, but now even Linux is getting pretty easy to use.

Other times I get disgusted at the unwillingness of so many computer users to learn anything at all about using a computer. I don't understand how they can stand to be at the mercy of the machine or the operating system. It's not necessary to become a programmer, a geek, or a techie in order to use a computer safely and effectively. Realistically, though, people just aren't interested in anything beyond doing whatever it is that they want to do. There's nothing wrong with that. We all have areas we're interested in and areas we're not, and it's just not possible to know everything we *should* know and still have time for the rest of life, so we have to choose what we want to know about and hope for the best with the rest.

Maybe some day computers will advance to the point that the typical user can't mess them up, the machine can protect itself from malware, and complex tasks will seem intuitive and easy. Those days aren't here yet.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on July 17, 2007, 05:45:10 am
Quote
Maybe some day computers will advance to the point that the typical user can't mess them up, the machine can protect itself from malware, and complex tasks will seem intuitive and easy. Those days aren't here yet.
--GrannyGeek

Well, I would say that part of that is covered by Linux, and another part by OS X.  I've installed Linux (and done a lot of configuration) for friends and family, so it's pretty hard for them to mess it up unless they're really trying, and they're also protected from malware.  I find that OS X is a lot more intuitive than either Linux or Windows.  On the other hand, most people who use computers are only familiar with Windows, so that doesn't help much.  Microsoft could make Windows more secure by requiring the administrator password be given for any software to be installed as the default, but they haven't.  That wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't cause so much collateral damage (botnets, friends' b0rked computers, etc.).
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: MikeCindi on July 17, 2007, 11:44:25 am
Well, I would say that part of that is covered by Linux, and another part by OS X.  I've installed Linux (and done a lot of configuration) for friends and family, so it's pretty hard for them to mess it up unless they're really trying, and they're also protected from malware.

FWIW my experience, limited to my kids, would not support this. They can crash linux or windows with seeming ease (one of the reasons I've loaded VL and SuSE so many times). I haven't used OS X so I couldn't comment on that. I can't blame internet access too often as they have limited access in that regard.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Lyn on July 17, 2007, 01:56:55 pm
First sorry for hijacking the thread, I am pleased that Apple have released Safari for Windows, the more browsers in the ecosystem the better, if they can learn from each other all the better.   

As for knowing what computers do - I am the sort of person who wants some level of knowledge of what I am doing and with what.  I don't drive (I don't think I ever will do) but if I did I would want to know a bit about the car I had.  After all if anything went wrong I'd like to know a bit to fix it if I could and something about it in relation to other machines of its class.

Yes I don't need to know how to write code to use it, but the basics of how it works and what is it made of should be basic to everything we do.  But then I have found most people are supremely uninterested in the world around them and as long as it works for them don't particularly want to know anything. 

Personally I blame the soap operas :-)
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on July 18, 2007, 06:53:34 am
You can damage your car by not doing proper maintenance on it, or by not knowing what you're doing, just as you can with a Windows PC.  Just this morning I got a call from a guy who wants me to help him with his computer ... he got a pop-up telling him he need a virus scan on his computer, he clicked yes, and *BOOM* suddenly his machine is infected with some virus which Norton can't remove.  I told him not to do stuff like that, but as usual he ignored me.  This is the same guy, who when I tell him he needs to update his security software, use something other than IE, etc., just rolls his eyes at me because he's bored with me being too technical.  I told him this time he has to call the Geek Squad, because I'm tired of him not following basic safety and security.

He obviously looks at much pr0n. Make sure he uses protection. (e.g., Firefox)

I can wire him virus-free stills and stuff, btw.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on July 18, 2007, 11:08:34 am
ROFL, hanumizzle ... though you may be right about the porn bit.  I didn't ask him, don't really wanna know.  The thing is ... do you remember when they used to talk about "perpetual September?"  It's from back when the net was mostly used by university people, and every September all the freshmen would do all this n00b stuff as they were adjusting to being online.  Then AOHell gave it's users internet access, and it became "perpetual September" because AOL was signing up new people all the time, and they were constantly doing all the usual newbie stuff.  Well, this guy has been in September mode for about three years, when he got his first computer.  I tell him to use Firefox, he ignores me, I tell him to make sure to keep his antivirus subscription up to date, he doesn't (he won't use ClamWin or AVG because "it can't be that good if it's free"), I tell him not to click yes on every popup, he ignores me, I tell him to clean out his system tray because all that crap is slowing down his machine ... you get the idea.  So I'm done with this guy.


mikecindi:

Wow ... I guess your kids are teh S-M-A-R-T.  I give the people I install Linux for a 20 character root password so they can't remember it, just to make it harder for them to mess up their system, then I have them put the password in a lock box or safe or something just to make it that much harder.  I don't have any kids, but I remember from being a kid the joy of breaking things.  My brother and I used to go to a junk yard, buy bicycle parts, build bikes, and then wreck them.  Good times, good times ...

Lyn:

I don't think that counts as a threadjack, since Safari for Windows is what this thread is supposed to be about.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: MikeCindi on July 18, 2007, 11:42:02 am
Unless they've figured out the root password (which I doubt) I don't know how they manage to bring the "pitter" to a stop but they do. One of them is pretty smart and does intentionally do things that I would never think to do (and sometimes have trouble fixing).  :P
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: muskrat on July 28, 2007, 09:50:50 pm
I thought Billy bought a huge interest in Apple when they almost went under?

That might be why they built safari for windoze before linux!

As for your car compareision, there's a problem there.

Frist off the manufacturer of the auto doesn't create an unsafe auto, thier autos work right off the lot, they recall them and fix them for free when they find a problem. PC's installed with windows aren't safe, they don't work right out of the box, true they apear to work but they are incomplete, they have no defense or inadiqiute defense. And they don't fix them for free, you are expected to fix them yourself. In other words "Updates and Pacthes".

Second deal is all auto drivers are required to take a test to see if they know where the brakes are and how to use them under all conditions, amonest other items of importance. Where as PC operaters have no requirments, no need to know about safe and secure PC usage.

I have two sisters that fall into this group, they buy the latest and greatest PCs, which now has vista. And use it right out of the box and in a few short weeks are crying "Help my PCs not working". When they haven't done any measure to protect them selves.

Windozes sells these PC's with no protection, How long would a car manufacturer sell cars with no brakes?
Windoze buyers buy PCs with no anti-virus, would they buy a car with no brakes?

It is a sad truth that most PC users don't know what a browser is, or what OS they are using even.  But what I find sadder still is a good number of PC techs don't even know that there are other choices to operating sytems.

I was shopping for a Wireless card for my laptop, and I ask "will this card work with Linux?" the sales tech answered "sure it will it'll work with any MicroSoft system"
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Lyn on July 29, 2007, 02:32:14 am

Windozes sells these PC's with no protection, How long would a car manufacturer sell cars with no brakes?
Windoze buyers buy PCs with no anti-virus, would they buy a car with no brakes?

It is a sad truth that most PC users don't know what a browser is, or what OS they are using even.  But what I find sadder still is a good number of PC techs don't even know that there are other choices to operating systems.

I was shopping for a Wireless card for my laptop, and I ask "will this card work with Linux?" the sales tech answered "sure it will it'll work with any MicroSoft system"

I am not sure I would be happy for computers to go out with Windows antivirus up and running as default, something echoed by the antivirus manufacturers... though I understand some versions of Vista have a subscription to MS antivirus and security suite already built in and switched on.....   Its a anticompetitive thing....

Like most of us here I spend a fair bit of time de virusing and speeding up friends machines, and usually its their own fault.  As Granny Geek has said its perfectly possible to run a windows machine without being infected by viruses or compromising security, just most ignore the basic security features.  Linux makes it easier to keep your machine safe and secure, though even then people can run into trouble..... As for sales staff in large computer outlets, most are sales staff and they are given very limited information on the products.  They are mostly interested in selling you an extended warranty - which is where they get most of their commission.  Some are great.... trying to set up my father's internet with a usb modem running Windows 98 (original edition) was a nightmare.  It kept forgetting that the USB was there, support for USB devices being non existant.  Spoke to the ISP help desk who said basically you are buggered... one of the suggestions was to buy an Ethernet router for connection and install Linux... as this would get the most out of the box :-)  I was most pleased that the person on the other end had come to the same conclusion as me.  However my dad is buying a Dell with vista preinstalled ... we will see how it (and he) copes.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on July 29, 2007, 11:14:29 am
I agree with you Lyn, most of the times is the user fault. But I remember the time before SP2 was out, your box could be infected in 10 seconds without AV software (I know this by my own experience). I am talking about nothing running or installed, a clean XP box just running the default services. If you have an old copy of XP, you need to download SP2 in another box, and install it before to configure a connection. I dont recommend to navigate without firewall and AV, but I think the risk is minimal if you know how to use the net safely.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: GrannyGeek on July 29, 2007, 07:42:41 pm
Most computers you buy at a major retailer or from Dell, etc., come with a trial version of some antivirus product, probably Norton or McAfee. You can get definition updates free for a limited time, like 60 or 90 days. After that you have to pay. Or you can switch to a free antivirus product, or buy one you prefer. But there shouldn't be a period during which the user is unprotected.

Windows XP has always come with a firewall, but it wasn't activated by default until Service Pack 2.

I don't think Windows should come with its own antivirus. That would be very anticompetitive. It seems in this regard, Microsoft can't win. If it absorbs what was third-party software, people complain that Windows is anticompetitive. If Windows doesn't come with that stuff, people complain that Windows doesn't come with virus protection or a firewall or antispyware or whatever.

Another reason is that I sure wouldn't want to be using Microsoft's attempt at AV software.

Interesting what someone said about needing a license to drive a car, but anyone can use a computer. Often I and many others have jokingly said people should have to pass a test before they can use a computer. Might not be a bad idea. ;)

So many of those security problems and system slowdown problems are the users' own doing. Sometimes they know better; often they don't. I don't know what the answer is. Using Linux would help a lot--except that I seriously doubt that people who don't know anything about keeping their Windows computers secure and don't really want to learn how would be able to use Linux, even now that distros are getting markedly easier to use.

Like muskrat, when I buy something I always attempt to find out whether and how it will work with Linux. I like the salesperson to know that Linux users are out there and we buy stuff, too.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: The Headacher on July 30, 2007, 05:00:57 am
Quote
Most computers you buy at a major retailer or from Dell, etc., come with a trial version of some antivirus product, probably Norton or McAfee. You can get definition updates free for a limited time, like 60 or 90 days. After that you have to pay. Or you can switch to a free antivirus product, or buy one you prefer. But there shouldn't be a period during which the user is unprotected.
This is a bad thing IMO. Computer manufacturers should have the guts to include a free of charge product. There are probably lots of people who continue using the included Norton after it expired (no updates), or search for a hacked version / license key instead (with a poorly protected computer!). Manufacturers probably get some money for including norton's products though... I can't imagine them doing it because it's such great software.

Quote
I don't think Windows should come with its own antivirus. That would be very anticompetitive. It seems in this regard, Microsoft can't win. If it absorbs what was third-party software, people complain that Windows is anticompetitive. If Windows doesn't come with that stuff, people complain that Windows doesn't come with virus protection or a firewall or antispyware or whatever.
A Windows installation connected to the web can't work properly without antivirus, it needs one to keep running. I think this is different from the case with mediaplayer.

Quote
Another reason is that I sure wouldn't want to be using Microsoft's attempt at AV software.
Agreed.

Quote
Interesting what someone said about needing a license to drive a car, but anyone can use a computer. Often I and many others have jokingly said people should have to pass a test before they can use a computer. Might not be a bad idea.
It's a good thing people say it jokingly, 'cuz it's a stupid idea. If you use your computer unsafely, the only person you could harm is yourself (and other users of that computer). I honestly don't care if people use infected boxes, be my guest. If OTOH you drive unsafely, you're a potentially lethal threat to anyone on the road. Also, note that a permit/license is no guarantee for safe behavior.

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Like muskrat, when I buy something I always attempt to find out whether and how it will work with Linux.
Me too, the best place to find it out is the web though. I trust the webs resources a lot more than some salesperson who just wants to sell me the most expensive thing he has. Also, a lot of salespeople have very little actual technical knowledge. If I'm really interested in a particular part of hardware/electronics I'll search for it on www.google.com/linux and see what shows up.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Joe1962 on July 30, 2007, 05:16:11 am
If you use your computer unsafely, the only person you could harm is yourself (and other users of that computer).
That's totally naive, if they use it on the net. Think of all those bot nets for DDOS attacks, hijacked spam machines; think of your credit card details being disclosed by a badly protected shop computer... :o
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: The Headacher on July 30, 2007, 05:29:02 am
None of those things stop me from enjoying the web Joe1962.

You can't blame people who don't know squat about protecting their computers for being part of a botnet. The evildoers are the people who build the viruses/botnets/spammachines / whatever.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Joe1962 on July 30, 2007, 05:34:41 am
I wasn't discussing blame (yet, lol), just pointing out that they can cause quite a bit of harm, even if indirectly.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on July 30, 2007, 07:28:15 am
Just a few brief comments:

I don't think people should have to have a license to use a computer, though on the surface it doesn't seem like a bad idea to require people to have a license to drive through the intertubes.  This, however, raises some obstacles.  One, you would have to get every government in the entire world to agree to require all of its citizens to have these licenses.  I don't see that happening in most countries.  Even if it were possible to get every country to agree, the specter of reduced privacy raises its ugly head.  How would you verify something like that?  Here in the US minors walk into bars all the time and get served alcohol with fake or borrowed identification.  So it would probably have to be biometric verification ... fingerprints, DNA, retina scans, or something like that.  That seems frightening to me, since there would have to be some globally accessible database somewhere with all kinds of personal information about everyone licensed to access the Internet.

On the other hand, a lot of Windows security problems could be solved if Microsoft Windows required every user to give the administrator password in order to install any software, as is the case with all *nix systems (with the possible exception of Linspire, which I think runs always as root).  I think Vista has this as an option, but it should be the default.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on July 30, 2007, 07:40:49 am
I guess the best thing around this would be Microsoft improving the security of his products  :o. I don't know if they should sheep an AV with Windows, I know Mr. Norton is happy with this thing  ;D. I agree with you Granny, in this: You need to know what are you doing! There is no question about that. A policy of permissions is already implemented but the users are not using them. But, the microsoft hole has been a business as well the OS itself.
In other point of view, we need to think about this: Linux had been not tested properly in this matter, we don't know how the system will work if the 90% of the computers of the world were using Linux, and every hacker on the planet trying to break them.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Joe1962 on July 30, 2007, 08:07:27 am
In other point of view, we need to think about this: Linux had been not tested properly in this matter, we don't know how the system will work if the 90% of the computers of the world were using Linux, and every hacker on the planet trying to break them.
In my opinion, that's a common misconception. Most web servers (maybe even most servers?) run Linux and *BSDs, you think they don't try to hack them all the time?
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on July 30, 2007, 08:27:03 am
You have a good point joe, but a server has just a few ports open, and may be just four or five for the internet. And the servers used to have some problems with mysql. That problem is thing of the past, I think, and proves that the open source community can response to problems more efficiently. IMO, a good permissions policy should be enough security though, if you are infected, the virus has nothing to do anyway. I do some php+sql *crappy* programming for extra money, and you are safe if you have a good policy about permissions and you dont offer more info than needed, i.e. you dont run process just because is free as in gratis ;).
I am just asking if the Linux box will response in the same way if the user has no good surfing habits, as well as the programmer. May be the answer is yes, I am not an expert  ;). I hope so, because the day is near  :)
Linux is better prepared in this matter anyway, as everybody knows  ::)

Note: I have seen some sql querys like this:
Code: [Select]
SELECT * FROM tableXWhen the only info needed is one field, should be:
Code: [Select]
SELECT fieldY FROM tableXIn the first way if something is hacking you, it will take the hole table, in the second way will take just fieldY.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on July 30, 2007, 09:52:59 am
I would like to comment on my own previous comment.

After having thought some, I've concluded that an irresponsible user is going to have problems even if the root/administrator password is required to install new software.  Many people I know who have Windows will get these popups telling them their computer is infected or they need a registry scan or something of that nature.  These things are known vectors for viruses and other malware.  I tell people not to click on that stuff, but their thinking seems to be "What could possibly go wrong?"  This is the case even with people who have had system-destroying virus infections in the past.  Norton (or whoever) can never catch everything, even if the definitions are up-to-date, since the authors of viruses, etc. are always one step ahead of them.  From what I've seen of irresponsible computer users, an administrator password is likely to be something easy to remember, such as the owner's dog's name.  Linux will even let you do this,  though if you set the password from the command line you will get a warning that it's a weak password.  So, if a Windows user's administrator password is "spot" and a popup appears saying that the machine is infected, and the user clicks "OK," the chances are high that the irresponsible user when prompted by the system for the administrator password will just type "spot" and let in the virus, trojan, or whatever.  Furthermore, a lot of Windows software that's "free" as in gratis comes loaded with spyware, and people generally don't do the research they need to do to find out what contains spyware and what doesn't.  So of course in those cases (Kazaa or whatever) people will generally give the admin password just because they want to download songs or whatever.

So, I take back what I wrote earlier.  Having Windows require the administrator password probably wouldn't make most systems more secure.

The real answer, as GrannyGeek and others have already said, is more responsibility on the part of users.  I'm a generally optimistic person, but on this matter I'm pessimistic.  If, in the future, children are taught in school the importance of computer security, things might change.  With the current users on the Internet, I don't see it happening.

I suppose it's natural that we Linux users, along with *BSD users and other *nix users (I don't include the Mac but that's a different story) are more security conscious than most computer users, just because we tend to be more computer savvy.  This doesn't make us "better" than those who are not as savvy, just more knowledgeable in this particular area.

Since this thread hasn't been Godwinned yet, I'd like to take the prize:

Hitler's Cat (http://www.admit-one.net/webimages/kitler.jpg)
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: GrannyGeek on July 31, 2007, 02:04:00 pm
Computer manufacturers should have the guts to include a free of charge product.

I doubt the makers of free-of-charge AV products would have the resources to handle multimillions of Windows computers. Their servers probably couldn't handle the traffic, and what about the tech support requests they'd get? It's not a realistic suggestion.

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There are probably lots of people who continue using the included Norton after it expired (no updates)

I know that's the case. Maybe the warning needs to be MUCH scarier so it doesn't seem like just a way to get your money.

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or search for a hacked version / license key instead

I am strongly opposed to piracy even when I think the manufacturers are being jerks about it. So I'm inclined to think the user of the hacked license key deserves what he/she gets--except that "getting what they deserve" can cause grief and even large monetary losses if the infected computer spreads the malware through the Internet.

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Manufacturers probably get some money for including norton's products though...

Of course they do! Why do you think computers come with all this preloaded software, called "crapware" by some? The manufacturer can reduce the price of the computer because they're getting money to include the preloaded software. Frankly, I'd rather pay less and just remove the crapware, but a lot of people would rather pay more and not have to deal with the trial versions, games, redundant applications, and other stuff they find useless.

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Like muskrat, when I buy something I always attempt to find out whether and how it will work with Linux.
Me too, the best place to find it out is the web though. I trust the webs resources a lot more than some salesperson who just wants to sell me the most expensive thing he has. Also, a lot of salespeople have very little actual technical knowledge. If I'm really interested in a particular part of hardware/electronics I'll search for it on www.google.com/linux and see what shows up.

Oh, I don't take the word of the salesperson that the hardware will or will not work with Linux. I mention Linux primarily so they'll know Linux users exist and we want hardware that is Linux-friendly. It's also fun because as a little old lady (the proverbial "your grandmother"), I don't fit the stereotype of the Linux user. It shows that it's not just nerdy guys with thick glasses and pocket protectors who use Linux.<g>
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: GrannyGeek on July 31, 2007, 02:26:04 pm
I don't think people should have to have a license to use a computer, though on the surface it doesn't seem like a bad idea to require people to have a license to drive through the intertubes.  This, however, raises some obstacles.  One, you would have to get every government in the entire world to agree to require all of its citizens to have these licenses.  I don't see that happening in most countries.  Even if it were possible to get every country to agree, the specter of reduced privacy raises its ugly head.

Of course! That's why we say it as a joke. There is already too much censorship of Internet content by governments and we can imagine how easily a requirement for a "computer license" could be misused to restrict access to information. Nevertheless, it's hard not to wish for some mandatory level of knowledge before so many users are unleashed on the Internet. Heck, it's not just the Internet. How many times have you tried to help someone whose computer ran like molasses, only to find that they had 60 things running in the background all the time? No wonder it's slow!

Quote
On the other hand, a lot of Windows security problems could be solved if Microsoft Windows required every user to give the administrator password in order to install any software, as is the case with all *nix systems (with the possible exception of Linspire, which I think runs always as root).  I think Vista has this as an option, but it should be the default.

As you point out in another message, this wouldn't necessarily solve the problem. However, it would help because it would prevent automatic installation of malware. Or would it? Vista includes UAC (User Account Control) activated by default. But all I hear from Vista users are complaints about having to give permission for so many things that we Linux users have *always* had to give a password for. And it's not even that burdensome in Vista because if you are a user with administrative rights, all you have to do is click that it's okay to do whatever, not give a password. At least that's how it worked on my daughter-in-law's Vista computer. I don't have Vista myself. Before Vista, Windows for consumers has always been weighted toward convenience rather than security. Maybe it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on July 31, 2007, 02:35:36 pm
LOL GrannyGeek ... I'm definitely nerdy but my glasses aren't thick ever since they came out with the thin plastic lenses.  ;D

There's a shop where I go sometimes to get obscure hardware, and the guys who work there are all Linux nerds.  One is really a Linux dork but that's a different story.  They sell, repair, and upgrade Windows machines (otherwise they would go out of business), but they all use Linux at home.  It's a locally owned shop, not part of any regional or national chain.  When I do go into a BestBuy or CompUSA, half the time I just get a blank stare if I ask whether something is Linux compatible.  Once a guy actually said to my face that Linux was crap and I should use a real OS like Windows 2000 or XP.  Sometimes I actually get somebody who knows something about Linux, but I never take their word for it when trying to determine whether something is Linux compatible or not.

You're probably right in saying that the servers of free AV products couldn't handle millions of Windows machines downloading from them.  Still, when I'm helping someone with a Windows machine, I usually remove the (usually not up-to-date) Norton security stuff and put on some free things, which tend to be less resource intensive anyway.

On your final point in your last post, I've recently heard the same complaint about Vista.  It probably is too late to put the genie of convenience-over-security back into the bottle.

My point is ... actually I think I only started this post to say that my glasses aren't thick.  :D
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: newt on July 31, 2007, 05:15:01 pm
Computer manufacturers should have the guts to include a free of charge product.

I doubt the makers of free-of-charge AV products would have the resources to handle multimillions of Windows computers. Their servers probably couldn't handle the traffic, and what about the tech support requests they'd get? It's not a realistic suggestion.

I gotta point out that your statements here are totally unfounded - your doubt, probability, and guesses do not make Headachers idea unrealistic.  I would much rather see "multimillions" of users sent away with AVG Personal Free and Comodo Firewall Free than the trial/limited teasers they get.  At least the end user wouldn't be left with a virtually useless product in 30-90 days.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on July 31, 2007, 05:21:22 pm
Once a guy actually said to my face that Linux was crap and I should use a real OS like Windows 2000 or XP.

Ask him if he ever used Linux. If not, tell him to STFU.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: exeterdad on August 01, 2007, 05:31:11 am
It's also fun because as a little old lady (the proverbial "your grandmother"), I don't fit the stereotype of the Linux user. It shows that it's not just nerdy guys with thick glasses and pocket protectors who use Linux.<g>
--GrannyGeek

LOL!  I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to go hardware shopping with you Granny.  Just to watch the salesperson tapdance.  I've seen them with older customers before, it's plain nauseating watching how they coddle and push unneeded "expertise" on them because they assume anything other than a digital wristwatch is beyond a older persons comprehension.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on August 01, 2007, 05:38:41 am
It's also fun because as a little old lady (the proverbial "your grandmother"), I don't fit the stereotype of the Linux user. It shows that it's not just nerdy guys with thick glasses and pocket protectors who use Linux.<g>
--GrannyGeek

LOL!  I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to go hardware shopping with you Granny.  Just to watch the salesperson tapdance.  I've seen them with older customers before, it's plain nauseating watching how they coddle and push unneeded "expertise" on them because they assume anything other than a digital wristwatch is beyond a older persons comprehension.

Hm, I have a similar, but opposite experience when people mistake me...

In any case I try not to condescend on my audience, while trying to remain plain and understandable.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on August 01, 2007, 09:33:07 am
From hanumizzle on: July 31, 2007, 07:21:22 PM

Quote
Ask him if he ever used Linux. If not, tell him to STFU.

The funny thing is, I've read a lot about Linux "zealots" and Mac "fanatics," but I hardly ever seem to see anything in the tech press about the menace of Windows fanatics or zealots.  In my experience, there are a lot of Windows crazies out there.  Some of them are the types who will tell you that they've never had a problem with Windows XP; I find this hard to believe since every OS has problems, and if you use it long enough you will eventually encounter one.  Others are the type who when you tell them you use Linux, will talk Linux down, as did the guy I mentioned in an earlier post.  And all you have to do is search a few Mac message boards and you'll find trolls telling the Mac users that that OS X is just a pretty GUI pasted on top of an OS that has no apps, won't play games blah blah blah.  Of course there are Linux zealots, and there are Mac fanatics, but Windows also has its share of die-hard maniacs who will say anything to defend their beloved operating system.  Once in his blog, cartoonist Scott Adams said something to the effect (sorry, I can't find a link) that "Microsoft-haters" could go curl up around their Linux disks and cry (this was in the context of his promotion of Bill Gates for president).  And I imagine a lot of you have seen the paid and unpaid MS shills praising Windows while disparaging Linux, Mac, *BSD, etc.

If someone has a link to a cache of that Scott Adams blog post, or another column/article quoting him, please post it.  I may be misremembering what he actually wrote, or I may have missed something indicating it was meant to be humorous (though I don't think so).

So, hanumizzle, you're right, I could have told the guy to STFU, but I've said similar things in the past; I've found that nobody changes their mind and I don't even feel better in the end.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: muskrat on August 01, 2007, 08:55:58 pm
I didn't saw I wanted a PC user to have a license, I was just making a point and maybe it wasn't that well done. Most people wouldn't be able to drive a car if they didn't have to have a license first. And they certainly wouldn't know anything about driving safety if they hadn't studied the drivers manual.

I guess to be blunt, if somebody doesn't want to learn PC safety, and they box gets all chocked up and broken, we're not doing them any favors, or ourselves for that matter. So in a way, we (those of us which know better) are just enableling those infected boxes, because without our fixes they wouldn't stand the test of time. It's sort of like giving a kin money when you know he's just going to drink it.

So maybe instead of fixing the infected ms windows, we should just install linux and not give the drunk the opportunity to drink again.

This is sort of close to home for me, I have two sisters which always buy the lastest and greatest MS, one already has vesta. But nether want to learn anything about PC safety, they think I'm paranoid. But yet when thier box don't work they ether call me or my Dad.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on August 01, 2007, 09:27:15 pm
I guess to be blunt, if somebody doesn't want to learn PC safety, and they box gets all chocked up and broken, we're not doing them any favors, or ourselves for that matter. So in a way, we (those of us which know better) are just enableling those infected boxes, because without our fixes they wouldn't stand the test of time. It's sort of like giving a kin money when you know he's just going to drink it.

Incidentally, my mother's new computer runs Windows and I practically had to pull teeth to prove to her that one can do almost the same things with Firefox that one can do with IE, and in many cases, many better things.

Most common Internet malware (ad infections, etc.) come from over the Web proper (i.e., HTTP). In turn, most of these come from Internet Explorer. Using a different browser, like Firefox, or Opera, or Seamonkey, is like shutting the gate through which most of the barbarians enter. With IE, that gate is more or less left wide open.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: muskrat on August 02, 2007, 08:01:05 am
Quote
Most common Internet malware (ad infections, etc.) come from over the Web proper (i.e., HTTP). In turn, most of these come from Internet Explorer. Using a different browser, like Firefox, or Opera, or Seamonkey, is like shutting the gate through which most of the barbarians enter. With IE, that gate is more or less left wide open.

I have a small internet cafe, and I know exactly what your taking about. I put all my security in place, and IE surcomvents all that and infects my box anyway. Another bad one is MSN Instant Messager. I finally installed Firefox and put a desktop link which I renamed Internet Explorer. By deleting IEs start links from the desktop and menu, I was able to close thoses open dooors.

And you want to know the truth most of the public don't even notice they aren't using IE when they click my renamed firefox link.
I still haven't found a good replacement for MSN messanger.

I'm working on setting up a  box which will run linux with a few windows apps via an emulator. When I get it working I going to push the public into a linux world. We'll see how it works. MSN messenger is one of the apps I'm still considering. Because the youth of today use that stupid program for everything from email to chat and personal contacts.

Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on August 02, 2007, 08:07:47 am
muskrat:
I took what you said about people having a license to use a computer as topic for discussion, not as anything more.  I think it's been a productive discussion; it at least gave me some things to think about.  So, I would say to you:  well done, friend.

hanumizzle
I've had similar experiences with Windows users.  Many people think that IE is the Internet, just as there are some people still around who think AOL is the Internet.  Many of them find anything different to be frightening or just too "difficult" to an adjustment.  I've had I don't know how many people download Firefox, then I show them how to use it (how it's the same as and different from IE) only to find out later that they ran into an IE-only site and went back to IE permanently.  Then, of course, comes the barrage of malware and the eventual b0rkinization of the OS.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 02, 2007, 08:12:41 am
there is a distro here called ciberlinux, which is kubuntu plus a special soft to administrate internet cafe and it is hacked to look just like windowz, with that firefox theme looking like ie7, thunderbird like ms outlook express and so on.

Tom: They will never get what is the intenet, may be telling how it borned and what was the original intention.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on August 02, 2007, 08:30:17 am
rbistolfi:

It's a good point that you make.  Nevertheless, in my experience many people really don't want to know what the Internet actually is, much less how it came to be or how it works.  They just want to know how to get their news, sports, porn, funny videos of dogs on skateboards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le7hnsl6rX4), or whatever.  Also, and I know this is going to sound harsh, but with some of these people, if you handed them a rock and told them it was a piece of bread, they would bite it.

Tom
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 02, 2007, 08:39:56 am
May be, is a little scary how people uses the freedom internet gives you. If you see what kind of things are the most visited on the net, you find that hardly the altruists uses of the interned will be popular, I find this a very sad reality. Of course you have the other side of the coin, when you see Linux and open source are the "net child", as well the different communitys around, and the medical practices (you can take a cardiogram and a doctor from the other side can see it!) and so on.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on August 02, 2007, 09:15:58 am
rbistolfi:

I agree.  If it weren't for the Internet (and, more specifically, the WWW), many great things wouldn't have happened, or would only have happened in reduced form.  I think that Free/Open Source Software generally and GNU/Linux in particular are among the best examples of this phenomenon.  Of course Free Software existed before many people had net access, but it wasn't until PC ownership reached a certain critical mass that F/OSS really started to take off.  I suppose it's some sort of a feedback loop.  Sometimes we focus too much on the negatives (I do that myself), and forget about what's available to us through the Internet that wouldn't be otherwise.

A few examples: I can email friends all over the world, I can phone my friends in Australia for about 1/100 the cost of a regular telephone call, I have access to information (from Wikipedia, Britannica,etc.) which previously would only have been available in a library, I can download software which formerly would have only been available by driving to a computer store ... I could make a very long list.  My favorite, though, is being a member (in my own small way) of the Linux community and more specifically the VL community.

Tom
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on August 02, 2007, 08:05:14 pm
I still haven't found a good replacement for MSN messanger.

MSN Messenger is quite popular in some place called Þæt Cynerīce Swēona (http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sw%C4%93oland), and for that I use 'Pidgin', which does IRC, AIM, MSN, ICQ, Yahoo! IM, bla^H^H^Hamong others.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Lyn on August 03, 2007, 12:02:32 am
I have mentioned it before but one project that deserves a mention again was the Blackpool Linux User Group  (BLUG) in England, UK.   They had money from the European Union to help people from deprived wards of their town to own a computer.  They had a scheme by which refurbished computers were made available to anyone living in the affected wards on condition that they attended a computer course.  At the end of the course they got to take their computer home with them.  There was no charge for the course.  BLUG grew out of a computer recycling scheme, so the computers cost nothing.  Funding for the trainers was found via EU Objective 2 Funding.   What was unique (at least as far as I know in the countries of the EU) is that these computers were preinstalled with Linux.  Continuing support was provided via members of the BLUG.   The organisation also ran a cyber cafe for members and the public.  I can't find details of the group now, it is possible that their funding has expired and the project has been closed down (as is all to often with time limited funding).  But to me this was an excellent way of getting computers to the long term unemployed, people on disability allowance and people we are on state retirement pensions. 
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 03, 2007, 01:07:13 pm
That sounds great Lyn, I hope the project still going...
This topic is geting more important, since looks like internet is becoming the first communication method and a important culture (in a wide sense) vehicle. Well or not, it has an educational role, since I see small kidds surfing the net without any supervision. If the internet is such thing, the case against Microsoft is more important than just some geeks playing with computers. A monopoly in such thing like computers being a very important thing like a vehicle of our language, culture, education, tradition, political/ethical opinions and a big etc  is even more dangerous.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: muskrat on August 03, 2007, 04:17:23 pm
Quote
MSN Messenger is quite popular in some place called Þæt Cynerīce Swēona, and for that I use 'Pidgin', which does IRC, AIM, MSN, ICQ, Yahoo! IM, bla^H^H^Hamong others.

I know about Pidgin, But it doesn't do every thing the foolish public like to do with MSN messanger.

Or if it does I'm not sure how to get it to do it.

For example, most MSN users user the instant messanger to check thier email. Will Pidgin do that? Now I know you can log into MSN via a browser and check your mail, and in reallity that's what MSN IM does, it kicks on the browser already logged into your account. But JohnJoe public has been dumbed down by the MS Giant, They don't know how to do something as simple as that.

And I have to repeatedly explain it to unhappy clients after they complain about MSN IM not working. That gets old real quick.
My mission in the cyber cafe is to make money not reeducate every Tom, Dick, and Harry in my town about how to use MSN.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: lagagnon on August 03, 2007, 04:28:40 pm
I know about Pidgin, But it doesn't do every thing the foolish public like to do with MSN messanger.
You said it, I didn't  ;)
Quote
For example, most MSN users user the instant messanger to check thier email. Will Pidgin do that?

Direct from the Pdgin website:

"Can I use Pidgin for e-mail, blogging, an RSS feed, or something else that isn't IM-related?

No, you can't. We get requests for this often, but Pidgin is indeed a messaging client. Aside from the capabilities each protocol may support, the Pidgin developers have no intention to turn Pidgin into a multi-feature Internet client capable of doing everything under the sun. We also won't be helping to develop plugins to turn it into that. There are many Internet applications available for Linux, Windows, or whatever operating system you use that would undoubtedly do a better job."

If your clients want your cyber cafe machines to be EXACTLY like their machines at home maybe they should stay at home and use their own machine!  ;)

There is also the option to use "amsn". It might have more of the features MSN users "require". But I don't know it so can't help you there....
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 03, 2007, 04:55:41 pm
muskrat:

I know ciberlinux, the distro I talk a few posts down, ships an aMsn tweaked for looks and function just like msn, including webcam support and such things, it is all in spanish though, since is an argentinian distro. You could take a look to "steal" the amsn configuration.


http://tecnicoslinux.com.ar/ciberlinux/escritorio7.png
http://tecnicoslinux.com.ar/web/node/125
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Joe1962 on August 03, 2007, 05:11:28 pm
For example, most MSN users user the instant messanger to check thier email. Will Pidgin do that?
Don't know about MSN, but I have it permanently logged on to gtalk and it checks my gmail and alerts me about messages.


EDIT: When you go to add or edit an account in Pidgin, you will see a "New Mail Notifications" checkbox. You will have to test it on MSN, as I don't use it.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: muskrat on August 06, 2007, 11:54:55 am
Quote
If your clients want your cyber cafe machines to be EXACTLY like their machines at home maybe they should stay at home and use their own machine! There is also the option to use "amsn".

My Clients are for the most part students in grade school, taking thier frist years of computor, they have no PC at home, just the ones they use at school. The biggest problem I have is the teachers aren't really that swift on PCs themselves, they only know the basic, and only teach the basics. So in the case of MSN, "One cat jumped out of the boot and all the other 9 followed".

I'll look into AMSN, will it install into Debian I wonder?

Quote
I know ciberlinux, the distro I talk a few posts down, ships an aMsn tweaked for looks and function just like msn, including webcam support and such things, it is all in spanish though, since is an argentinian distro. You could take a look to "steal" the amsn configuration.

I'll have a look, thanks! As for spanish that's fine because that's where I need it, in Mexico!
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 06, 2007, 12:03:52 pm
Quote
I'll look into AMSN, will it install into Debian I wonder?

Sure it will, that distro I mentioned is just kubuntu hacked for internet cafes.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 16, 2007, 08:14:23 am
Back to the original topic  :o, I think I understand now: Safari will be the main tool to interact with the iphone and other gadgets. So Steve thinks the safari fate is attached to the success of the Apple devices.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on August 17, 2007, 04:09:53 am
rbistolfi

What is this "iPhone" you speak of?

Just joking.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 17, 2007, 05:00:46 am
je je, that is a point for steve jobs, you say you dont know what an iphone is, and it is an obvious  joke!! I don´t know if the strategy will work, but we often say, "Steve is crazy or dumb", well, may be he is crazy, but he knows how to make business. I used to think Apple was giving up on the desktops race, even when it is well prepared for the future. They have a brand, they have a unix based system, so the transition to 64bits or other archs should be painless, and they have money. the Apple devices can take them back to the race, or at least, can give them a nice push.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on August 17, 2007, 06:10:05 am
rbistolfi:

I agree that Apple is well-positioned to to gain market share in desktops/laptops.  The only big obstacle I see is that so many people believe that they need MS Office.  There's Crossover Mac now ... maybe Apple will partner with Codeweavers.

Tom
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: rbistolfi on August 17, 2007, 06:34:15 am
yes, office is a great hook, and I think it does a good job, but is very heavy in the latest releases. What can I say, I love Abiword  ::). Anyway, is not a bad strategy. You make a shining thing (iPhone in this case) and you package a browser with it. So people use the browser too, and there you have a chance to convince them.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: tomh38 on August 17, 2007, 07:12:19 am
I'm a big fan of Abiword also.  I also think that MS Office is weighed down by a lot of unnecessary features.  In a lot of businesses and other organizations you have to have it, and a lot of people need it at home because they do some of their work at home.  Still, I think that for most purposes many people would do fine with Open Office ... I can't say anything about KOffice since I haven't used it in a long time.  Anyway, I can see your point about Safari and the iPhone.  A lot of people out there using Windows are using Firefox, so they're already accustomed to using a browser that isn't Internet Explorer.
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on August 17, 2007, 08:53:17 pm
latex wins
Title: Re: Apple Releases Safari Beta for Winderz
Post by: Vxt on August 18, 2007, 07:54:57 pm
I have never heard if anyone used the X-window server for M.S.  products
 
Everyone says Linux  - neglecting  that's  the KERNEL
All else are add-ons to actually do anything

What an intersting glimpse into the cross -section of life:

"The devil is in the details"??
My lil devil is why any (addiction ?) interest in technical inners -

The personal  answer - my mirror rolls eyes & sez...
' Your DNA has progammed you to survival > learn & react
How to respond, be curious about implications of anything
Then the logic of it all '

'The fullfillment of 1st keeps you alive,  is practical - the second  ;D not so much -
only an irritating noise to anyone else '

Responces to justify to others - are nearly  all factual, maybe even impressive sounding
but who asked (me)?

Asides:  I'm shopping for less cheeky mirror

As a service Mgr once remarked -
Quote
"I asked what time it was, not how to build a clock and make it last forever

 (almost missed the last meaning,  he never did say WHAT part lasted forever)

I didn't willfully try the "job-security trick" of making all seem so intricate......
Just got carried away in enthusiasms

Thankfully  it worked, -Mngtmnt  mostly said "Stop yapping, get back to work & fix it"
Just keep up  the quality so we all keep jobs"
(maybe my selective memory added that WE bit)
 
The one multi-tasking nobody can quite master - may be: Produce & talk at same time