VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: nubcnubdo on June 11, 2007, 09:05:49 pm

Title: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: nubcnubdo on June 11, 2007, 09:05:49 pm
I wonder how difficult it would be for VectorLinux to hook up with Zenwalk, make a combined effort. Does Zenwalk have a dynamic leader like Robert Lange? Has this been discussed before? I would like to hear the consensus on this, if it's been covered before. Okay, what is Jean-Philippe Guillemin like? How do Zenwalk users compare to VL users? Is Jean-Philipe friends with Vector? Just wondering...
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on June 11, 2007, 10:55:56 pm
With our current load of projects this would be down the road some just to consider. Don't know anything about them at all. Would be some legal issues as well. Post any ideas you have but remember it will be awhile to concentrate on this. Still in the trows of VL machines at Madtux and pre-paid help site is being worked on now.
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: The Headacher on June 12, 2007, 01:03:00 am
We'd just be removing a great distro from a world filled with debian based trash.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Kocil on June 12, 2007, 02:38:17 am
I wonder how difficult it would be for VectorLinux to hook up with Zenwalk, make a combined effort. Does Zenwalk have a dynamic leader like Robert Lange? Has this been discussed before? I would like to hear the consensus on this, if it's been covered before. Okay, what is Jean-Philippe Guillemin like? How do Zenwalk users compare to VL users? Is Jean-Philipe friends with Vector? Just wondering...

From technical point of view, not very difficult.
I'm building three distros right now (including VL).
Some use Slackware as the base, the rest use Zenwalk.
I can switch between the two bases easily, except some dependency problems.

IMHO, VL has a few more advanced features and a lot of more optional packages.
However, Zenwalk is far better on repository management.



Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Toe on June 12, 2007, 09:44:48 pm
I've been trying out a lot of different Slackware-based distros lately to see if they had anything that might be useful to have in Vector.  So far I haven't seen much that interested me.  Zenwalk is the one I had the highest hopes for, but so far I haven't been able to get it to install.  (I use VirtualBox for distro testing).

Still, I used maybe 8 different distros that have slapt-get/gslapt as their primary package manager.  I think the biggest thing that could be gained is colaboration on repositories.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: blurymind on June 13, 2007, 02:04:56 am
which is impossible for vector to do with zenwalk.....since zenwalk is way ahead with versions ,while vector is trying to keep in line with slackware official packages (the more stable choice)
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 13, 2007, 02:45:38 pm
We'd just be removing a great distro from a world filled with debian based trash.

Yeah.

I'm not entirely sure why we'd want to merge with Zenwalk when their culture is significantly different.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: incognu on June 13, 2007, 04:02:11 pm
I can't work up much enthusiasm for this idea ... I really like VL as it is.  It seems like some sort of merger with ZW would involve some basic changes in approach in some areas, either for them or us, or both.  The area I'm thinking of in particular is ZW's "one app only" vs the "choose what you want" approach of VL.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: easuter on June 13, 2007, 04:12:02 pm
Quote
The area I'm thinking of in particular is ZW's "one app only" vs the "choose what you want" approach of VL.

Yep, this is one of my reasons too.
A merger would probably be more disruptive than beneficial, after all, the reason VL and Zenwalk exist separately is because there have to be differences in philosophy/design objectives.

This doesn't mean there can't be colaboration in areas we agree upon!
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: incognu on June 13, 2007, 04:37:39 pm
Quote
The area I'm thinking of in particular is ZW's "one app only" vs the "choose what you want" approach of VL.

Yep, this is one of my reasons too.
A merger would probably be more disruptive than beneficial, after all, the reason VL and Zenwalk exist separately is because there have to be differences in philosophy/design objectives.
Yes, either way it went you'd have very disappointed people.  Variety is a good thing, because no one way of doing things will please everyone, or satisfy everyone's needs.  The diversity of distros is imo one of the strengths of GNU/Linux. 
Quote
This doesn't mean there can't be colaboration in areas we agree upon!
Absolutely!  No argument there.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 13, 2007, 04:54:27 pm
Quote
This doesn't mean there can't be colaboration in areas we agree upon!

Could be nice if slackware based distros could build a common repo. I guess some standards on packaging are needed to do that, and srong rules about maintenance, etc. But if it is possible, could be a nice step. A lot of *buntu distros borned recently, just because they can use their big repositorie.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Joe1962 on June 13, 2007, 05:26:53 pm
Now that would be a cool idea to take Slackware distros to the bubuntu levels. I fear that the discussions to set the standards might get pretty messy though.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 13, 2007, 05:41:26 pm
Now that would be a cool idea to take Slackware distros to the bubuntu levels. I fear that the discussions to set the standards might get pretty messy though.

Of course, I didnt mean slackware based distros should be like *buntu, I said just some distros could join efforts to build a better repo, if there is a common general idea. Standards are not bad if they are in the correct place, for example, what matter where a .desktop file goes? A standard location and formats for .desktop files would be great for linux users. And the same for some locations of libs or things like that.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Joe1962 on June 13, 2007, 05:50:45 pm
Err... I meant what I said literally, which is that it really is a cool idea to have a huge, well maintained, common repo for Slackware distros. I know personally how hard it is to keep a properly organized repo with little manpower ... :o
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Toe on June 14, 2007, 01:04:04 am
Or perhaps form something like the DCC Alliance (http://www.dccalliance.org/faq.html) (formerly Debian Core Consortium) for the Slackware world?  Come up with a common base for things like lib versions, repo format (spread the slapt-get + tlz love?), compile flags, etc.

Not sure if you guys are aware of this or not, but Ultima Linux (http://www.ultimalinux.com/) and Wolvix (http://wolvix.org/) have recently agreed to colaborate with each other (http://www.ultimalinux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=476).  Perhaps that would be a good place to begin such a discussion?
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: blurymind on June 14, 2007, 05:12:21 am
collaboration would definatelly make both vector and zenwalk more powerful.
I think we should welcome the perspectives of it and what it could bring... but for a merging both distros will have to do some changes and thats something that should be talked between their core developers and leaders in a private or public matter. :-\

having one repo will bring better and more packages,that are updated and controlled by many more people.
It is a good idea,but again,vector wouldnt take a step away from papa slack...

Zenwalk comunity is very active and has many good graphic designers,packagers and devs...We could use their help if they offer it.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 14, 2007, 08:34:27 am
Err... I meant what I said literally, which is that it really is a cool idea to have a huge, well maintained, common repo for Slackware distros. I know personally how hard it is to keep a properly organized repo with little manpower ... :o

 ;D Sorry Joe, was a long day  :-[. I was thinking on the same direction. The advantage of a common repo are ovious, more packagers for everybody, more packages for the users. I think is the better place to start a colaborative aproach. Linuxpackages is already working like a common repo... I guess many of the things needed are already there. Linux and slack based distros needs to have some standards in minor places, just to start.

PS: hard work, short manpower, few devs. Still the best distro  ;) Imagine what can be done from there.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: easuter on June 14, 2007, 08:44:49 am
I guess one of the first "obstacles" would be whether or not they are prepared to adopt LZMA compression for their packages, because I don't think thats something VL will ever drop... :-X
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 14, 2007, 08:48:48 am
I guess one of the first "obstacles" would be whether or not they are prepared to adopt LZMA compression for their packages, because I don't think thats something VL will ever drop... :-X

of course, is time for other distros to follow vector in some things... :) debian based included
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: The Headacher on June 14, 2007, 08:57:31 am
Zenwalk seems to use
Code: [Select]
CFLAGS="-O2 -march=i486 -mtune=i686" and --prefix=/usr. If we would build packages for both distro's we'd probably want to use i486 too.

An interesting question what you'd have to use as a packaging box. Now it's easy, a clean install of VL standard.

If you want to create packages that'll work on most Slack derivatives, there's only one thing to do: build it on Slack with Slack CFLAGs. Upload the packages to slacky.it or linuxpackages.net. That way you'll give back to Slack as well.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: nubcnubdo on June 14, 2007, 09:30:26 am
One accidental effect of joining forces could be that curious Zenwalk users would be inclined to dabble in VectorLinux, and that might be all it takes to make a convert. ;)

[Don't tell Jean-Philippe! This message will self-destruct in two days, Mr. Phelps.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvMDV-73J30

P.S. Zenwalk just released Zenserver 0.5
http://www.zenwalk.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=57
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on June 14, 2007, 10:37:18 am
Hello All:
Lets not get to far ahead of ourselves right now on this issue. we need all our precious resources at the VL table right now to complete what is already in development. The Debian commonality repos etc. is at least 3 years old now or thereabouts. Few folks even know about it. This will require carefull planning and development. It is a project to perhaps begin to look at and idea storm for now anyway.
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: The Headacher on June 14, 2007, 11:21:29 am
AFAIC this is just that: an idea storm. I don't want VL to merge with Zenwalk, I'm not even sure sharing repo's with other Slack derivatives like Zenwalk would work out well (or at all). As I mentioned earlier, it might even make  sense to package on and for Slack, then be glad it works on VL too. Heck, when I get back my laptop I'm just going to do this :D.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: incognu on June 14, 2007, 02:38:55 pm
Yeah, this is just kicking ideas around.

Re packing for Slack instead of VL: a little ambivalence here.  Good to give back, but what about the CFLAGs and performance?

I know some people (particularly those using distros set to i386 flags) claim optimising for i686, i586 etc gives no performance boost to speak of, but I'm not so sure of that.

Again, just kicking ideas around, I can see a "hot-slack" repository, with the packages built at least with -O2 -march=i486 -mtune=i686 and better, with our own -O2 -mtune=i686 -march=i586

edit: 'doh, just poking around in slack source packages and found "-O2 -march=i486 -mtune=i686" used.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 14, 2007, 02:56:11 pm
Of course, this is just a ligth talk. About the packaging box, I read a thread about making a packaging structure without the need of a full install (I think with chroot or something like that). May be this can be done: a bash script will setup a packaging enviroment folowing some standards. Just a command needs to be executed to setup the propers vars. Of course, the setup needs to be compatible with all the distros involved. The script will ensure all the pack boxes has the same setup.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: nubcnubdo on June 14, 2007, 08:30:05 pm
Shuttleworth has a plan to coordinate collaboration between distros with a common forum, a forum specifically dedicated to the collaboration.

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8470376604.html

We could have a Slackware-derivative forum for:
VectorLinux
Zenwalk
Wolvix
Ultima
Absolute
Frugalware
GoblinX

But I bet such a forum would be the birthplace of yet another Slackware distro. LOL

Maybe there could be a common forum between just Zenwalk and VL.

Or, VL and ZW could co-sponsor an extra complementary section in each other's forum. With good linking, it would be like having common forums. Zenwalk uses the same SMF forum software, doesnt it? Hmm

Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Pita on June 14, 2007, 09:10:43 pm
I can't even get Zenwalk to connect to the Internet. And be careful, in their forum there are some edgy characters.

As for me, no thank you Zenwalk.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: nubcnubdo on June 14, 2007, 09:34:25 pm
Quote
I can't even get Zenwalk to connect to the Internet.

I had that problem too. Never got the NIC to work.

EDIT: I am seeing that ZW Forum is moderated with one finger on the Ban Button.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Colonel Panic on June 15, 2007, 05:38:31 am
Quote
I can't even get Zenwalk to connect to the Internet.

I had that problem too. Never got the NIC to work.

EDIT: I am seeing that ZW Forum is moderated with one finger on the Ban Button.

As I said elsewhere the setup needs work, there's no option for computers with no network card so I was being endlessly returned to the beginning network setup screen. I can't remember how I got out of it.

Pity, because I thought the Zenwalk desktop was elegant. I think ZW's got a lot of promise but I don't think we should be joining forces with their team.

Ultima's another matter, it's a promising distro which has (by its own admission) installation issues. Maybe something could happen there.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: nubcnubdo on June 15, 2007, 12:31:53 pm
This is an illuminating thread from Zenwalk:

http://support.zenwalk.org/index.php/topic,6533.0.html

Here's a suggested solution to the problem you had with network setup:

Quote
I think the installer needs minor tweaking all right, but not all the way to GUI.

Each "sub-step" in the process needs a "next" button so it's clear how to jump to the next step - and a "back" button so you're not hosed if you miss something.

As is, you go into each sub-module and then pop back out when done with "ESC".  Not very common, and can lead to accidentally skipping steps.  Several people report accidentally setting runlevel to 3 (CLI only) - I managed that too.

From my reading, I gather that there definitely is no consensus between ZW Forum members for Zenwalk to be newbie friendly. 

Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: blurymind on June 16, 2007, 02:14:24 am

Or, VL and ZW could co-sponsor an extra complementary section in each other's forum. With good linking, it would be like having common forums. Zenwalk uses the same SMF forum software, doesnt it? Hmm


i like this idea. Lets talk with zen team and see what they think.

Shuttleworth has powerful ideas,worth noticing.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on June 16, 2007, 10:35:07 am
Hi:
I think we should step back from this until a few of the major projects we are in the middle of are completed. I am not against any of this, but we ALL need to carefully consider the end results of any such collaboration. Please continue to brain storm and post idea structures for consideration and community input.
For example. How do you envision the IT structure of this model?
What would we name it? Who will host the site? Wiki or static pages? These ideas will give us a vision of the end result to consider, before we even talk to ZW.
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: JohnB316 on June 16, 2007, 12:47:00 pm
Besides the issues mentioned in Darrell's post, there are issues of package management, packaging standards, etc., etc., that would have to be dealt with before we even contemplate talking with ZW or any other Slack derivative for merger, etc. There may also be potential legal issues, so it's not a good idea to rush into anything until we can think through things carefully.

Just my $0.02,
John
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 16, 2007, 01:25:07 pm
I think the idea of a common slack-based repo could be a good thing, and a more proof merge with some distros too. But this is not something to do in a hurry, I agree with John and Darrell on this one. A slow start could be test other distros packages on vl. We cant test VL's packages in distros with no lzma support, but its a start.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: newt on June 16, 2007, 02:23:35 pm
Hi:
I think we should step back from this until a few of the major projects we are in the middle of are completed. I am not against any of this, but we ALL need to carefully consider the end results of any such collaboration. Please continue to brain storm and post idea structures for consideration and community input.
For example. How do you envision the IT structure of this model?
What would we name it? Who will host the site? Wiki or static pages? These ideas will give us a vision of the end result to consider, before we even talk to ZW.
Regards
Darrell
Besides the issues mentioned in Darrell's post, there are issues of package management, packaging standards, etc., etc., that would have to be dealt with before we even contemplate talking with ZW or any other Slack derivative for merger, etc. There may also be potential legal issues, so it's not a good idea to rush into anything until we can think through things carefully.

Just my $0.02,
John
I think the idea of a common slack-based repo could be a good thing, and a more proof merge with some distros too. But this is not something to do in a hurry, I agree with John and Darrell on this one. A slow start could be test other distros packages on vl. We cant test VL's packages in distros with no lzma support, but its a start.

I felt the same way about paid tech support but that one ran away - FASTTTT ;D .  What harm could come??? ;)
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on June 16, 2007, 02:30:13 pm
It ran away FAST due to several folks fully concentrating their efforts on it. That idea is almost fully developed again due to FOCUS.
The ZW idea needs FOCUS. Not that it is faulty or unrealistic just needs FOCUS. We have projects on the go that need to be fully completed before we can focus elsewhere.
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 16, 2007, 03:23:07 pm
No harm at all, I guess. In my case, was just a practical thing, I have the opinion that we need to take this as a long term project, because there are many issues to solve. For example, ZW ships xorg 7.2, I dont know what vers of glibc, qt, wx* and other fundamentals libs are they using, not all the others are following slack step by step, and I dont know how this can affect the building-package process.
I dont know why the paid support thing ran fast, and I have no manner to know. I guess people who takes the decisions were interested. IMO, a common repo could be a big impact, bigger than any other project. As I said when I proposed it, I think the success of several debian based distros is they can use the hughe kanonikal/*buntu repos. Slack based distros are dividing efforts, and debian based are joining them. In addition, we dont need to agree in everything, just in some standards to build packages (i guess, may be i am wrong). So this is a good point to start a merge. But cant be done in a blink, I am not saying "dont do it", I am saying lets work some before talk with others, we really dont know even if it is possible at all. We were just "thinking at loud", a lot more if needed to start a project of this kind.
About the big projects running now and the manpower needed to do them (may be including this one), I think could be good to have a wiki, with a page for each project, and one page for each work area of the distro, where you can read the goals of the project, the name of the project leader, the name of colaborators, the resources needed, the stage of the project, what kind of help is needed, etc. May be in that way we could get more help in a more efficient way, mostly in no-critic areas, and minor tasks now taken by main devs. The ways we can join to the devs efforts are not documented at all, and that is a mistake. I think there is many ways to help than the financial way, and we have our focus on just that way. In addition, people with an interest in common could start a new project in an organized way (for example, the projects of our gambas-devs, a new web-site for vl6, new contents of the site, new flavors on graphical/desktop design, new apps or systems to implement, migration and/or upgrades of fundamentals libs, and other nice ideas that you can see in the forum).
The only thing agains this kind of wiki for projects is the wiki itself is a project, so we need a wiki for the wiki project, and a wiki for the wiki...ad infinitum  ;D
Just my $ARG 0.02 (1 US$ = 3.08 ARG$)
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 16, 2007, 06:27:05 pm
I'm sitting here scratching my head. What exactly is the point of the discussion? To have a common repo? I certainly don't want to merge with Zenwalk or any other Slackware-based distro. I use VectorLinux because I like it. I like it better than any other distro I've tried. I stopped trying other distros a couple of years ago, when I found that VL met all my needs. There was no point in trying other distros. I want to get things done, not play with distros.

For the past couple of years, my trials of other distros have been limited to LiveCDs, and even that is uncommon for me.

Don't Linuxpackages.net and slacky.it already provide something of a common repo? Yes, things don't always work and you may be on your own as far as finding dependencies, but you can still do pretty well between those two, Slackware's repo, and VL's repo.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 16, 2007, 07:03:22 pm
I think the point is find a way to join efforts. VL is already great, we all know that. That doesnt mean it cant be better, and doesnt mean there are not other good distros around.
Why to join forces with other distros? Well, if there are some distros with equal philosophy, or with same goals, or something big in common, there is no sense in compite between them. I am not saying ZW and VL are those distros, honestly I dont know. May be there is no such thing as a VL's "brother", but if there is, I would like to see them together. You are rigth about Slacky and Linuxpackages, I mentioned it at my first post on this thread. But they dont solve dependencies. We can live with that. We solve them, we compile from source, and if we cant, the greats guys easuter, joe, john, etc, etc will build a nice vl package for us. But most of people dont know how to do this. They are not interested in computers as we do, and they dont want to spend time looking for a solution. Why we want that people to use vl? because with more users, more chances to survive in a hard world. More are joining vl already, as we can see on the forum, and -eventually- the repo will be more big and hard to maintain. If we check the ZW repo (I did) We will find one pretty like ours, in quantity and quality. They have a packagers number like we have, more or less -we can guess-. So why not divide the job?
Again, this are just ideas, we dont need to do a big deal of this. If they work, great. If they dont, lets think about something else. The only thing we cant do is to not think at all.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: never_stop_learning on June 16, 2007, 11:28:17 pm
I evaluated a LOT of different distros for our Computers for Kids program. Things that REALLY impressed me about Vector:

Speed - Vector is FAST on a wide variety of machines.

Flexibility - I have been able to install Vector on every machine that has been donated to our Computers for Kids program. You would be surprised how many distros (including Zenwalk) hang on different machines. I don't have the time to trouble shoot every install.

Ease of Install - Vector's installer is easy to understand and installs faster than other distros.

Internet - Just works. This includes wireless on the laptops (we stick with cards that work). I never could get wireless to work on Zenwalk. The only issue we've had with Vector is with WPA and I'm sure that we'll be able to figure things out.

Package Management - It doesn't get any easier than GSLAPT.

Package Availability - I am a non-technical user and probably don't tax the repositories but no one else involved in our project has complained about a lack of packages either. The kids who want to learn to design games have downloaded Blender  - and the tutorial - and are learning as we speak.

Training - We are training kids, siblings, parents, etc. on Vector. The feedback has been extremely positive.

Would it not be preferable to remain focused on what makes Vector the great distro it is? I understand that there is strength in numbers and that cooperative ventures can be beneficial but I would hate to see Vector's strengths compromised as a result.

Just my $.02.....

Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: The Headacher on June 17, 2007, 01:25:03 am
Quote from: rbistolfi
You are rigth about Slacky and Linuxpackages, I mentioned it at my first post on this thread. But they dont solve dependencies.
AAMOF, Slacky packages DO have dependency info in them. To use their packages, add http://www.slacky.eu/repository/slackware-11.0 to the gslapt/slapt-get sources.

After giving it some thought, I have to agree with GrannyGeek and never_stop_learning (and others who said similar things) here. VL is fine the way it is.

Suggestions I've seen so far
- make a combined effort (in what??)
- a common repo (just use slack packages, they should work on any slack derivative)
- Come up with a common base for things like lib versions, repo format (spread the slapt-get + tlz love?), compile flags, etc.

The hurdles for what's been suggested are many, the advantages unclear (more packages is about the only one I heard). I think it might even slow down development when we argue amongst ourselves trying to find standards.

What we found out so far, is that .tlz rocks. the software used for .tlz packages was taken from tukaani (http://tukaani.org/). There was no real agreement as far as I can see, or difficult official merge/collaboration. Just take it. That's what open source is for.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: exeterdad on June 17, 2007, 09:57:30 am
Yeah, what he said!
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on June 17, 2007, 10:32:15 am
Hello All:
OK, I am not being rude or micromanaging here. I, at least do not think I am. We are NOT doing this at this time anyway. Once a team can be pulled together that will put this project on paper and demonstrate an ONLY a substantial positive outcome will anything even be CONSIDERED. That is it. Case closed. Those intested in forming this fact finding team are welcome to step up to the plate. Thanks for any ideas to date.
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 17, 2007, 02:28:02 pm
The arguments exposed by The Headeacher are strong enough for me and they are well taken. That said, I still think we are dividing efforts and some kind of collaboration could make a difference. The common repo idea came up to me as a good start of a common work. Many times we read on the forum that VL is short of manpower, this ideas are an attemp to solve that problem.

Quote
What we found out so far, is that .tlz rocks. the software used for .tlz packages was taken from tukaani. There was no real agreement as far as I can see, or difficult official merge/collaboration. Just take it. That's what open source is for.

True, that is already the collaboration we are talkin about.

Quote
Would it not be preferable to remain focused on what makes Vector the great distro it is? I understand that there is strength in numbers and that cooperative ventures can be beneficial but I would hate to see Vector's strengths compromised as a result.

Of course! This ideas are for reduce the load of work not to increase it. So, this is about get focus on the vl strengths!

Quote
The hurdles for what's been suggested are many, the advantages unclear (more packages is about the only one I heard).

More packages with less work, that is not a minor thing, if I am not wrong, will be the key in the future. But may be I am wrong, I have no problems to admit that. :) One of my theorems is "probably I am wrong, I must be missunderstanding the other's arguments".

Quote
I think it might even slow down development when we argue amongst ourselves trying to find standards.

Dont do this then, the only reason of this is to improve development. We need to be sure this or whatever is good for the development. Honestly, I dont know how a discussion about the standars could be, I was very careful about this.

Guys, my english is not very good and maybe I am not understanding well, but some people looks upset. I think we need to be more open to new ideas, if we make a war from whatever, people will stop to trying to help. I have no problems to admit if I am wrong, as I said, if the arguments show that. There is no need of upset. We all are here because we think VL is the best distro around.
cheers, Rodrigo

PS: honestly, what do you think about the wiki thing? I mean this:

Quote
About the big projects running now and the manpower needed to do them (may be including this one), I think could be good to have a wiki, with a page for each project, and one page for each work area of the distro, where you can read the goals of the project, the name of the project leader, the name of colaborators, the resources needed, the stage of the project, what kind of help is needed, etc. May be in that way we could get more help in a more efficient way, mostly in no-critic areas, and minor tasks now taken by main devs. The ways we can join to the devs efforts are not documented at all, and that is a mistake. I think there is many ways to help than the financial way, and we have our focus on just that way. In addition, people with an interest in common could start a new project in an organized way (for example, the projects of our gambas-devs, a new web-site for vl6, new contents of the site, new flavors on graphical/desktop design, new apps or systems to implement, migration and/or upgrades of fundamentals libs, and other nice ideas that you can see in the forum).
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on June 17, 2007, 04:05:16 pm
The reason for my last post was I did not see anything even close to this:
OK...everyone step back and take a deep breath...1..2..10.
There. Now, here is how I approach things. Maybe lets look at it change it add to it as you deem fit.
1. Why Are We Doing This?
2. Is it worth the efforts?( Energy in..produced results out)
3. What other distro or disto's would be the best match(s)?
4. Are we recreating the wheel? (Does something similar exist)
5. Is something similar in development? ( Can we review it)
5. What results have been reported in the past of this exercise?
6. What in defined terms will be the end benefit(s), and to whom?

This would be what I would look at myself, I toss around an idea for a long time then go through it step by step in my head. Over and over until I know it in my sleep. Then I change it for an idea I came up with while thinking it over, etc, etc...then I have a plan I know off by heart and share it with others to get their feedback. Dependant on that info I either change the plan modify it only a little...then I am confident of what I am trying to accomplish can be accomplished. It's success always an unknown!!..Ergo, "The best laid plans of mice and men.
Robert Burns (1759-1796)..
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Colonel Panic on June 20, 2007, 02:36:54 am
Having just installed Zenwalk 4 (from which I'm now posting), I have to say that whilst it's a visually attractive distro with nice wallpaper and themes for XFce, I can't see that it offers anything that Vector doesn't.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: blurymind on June 20, 2007, 08:56:35 am
Having just installed Zenwalk 4 (from which I'm now posting), I have to say that whilst it's a visually attractive distro with nice wallpaper and themes for XFce, I can't see that it offers anything that Vector doesn't.
the better looking package that it is in .Visually appealing desktop,bootsplash,everything and their website too. Something that vector has to work on. ::)

Being more attractive in looks makes it a more tempting distro to the newbies.
First impressions are important.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Colonel Panic on June 20, 2007, 09:49:25 am
Yes, I suppose they are but for me it's not a deal breaker because I know enough to be able to fiddle around with desktops, wallpaper etc. At the moment I'm back in Vector and posting from the FVWM Crystal window manager, which is pretty and works well.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think Vector has a slightly different niche from Zenwalk, a bit more like Arch in that it caters for people who have had prior Linux experience and are willing  to get their hands dirty installing and configuring new applications. It's also not as minimalist in that it offers a choice of applications for a given function; for example, whereas Zenwalk only offers Firefox AFAIK  for browsing, Vector has Firefox, Seamonkey, Dillo and Opera.

Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 20, 2007, 10:24:28 am
ZW has "one app for each task" as a policy. I like it, but I think is good to have options if they are well organized on the menu. In the soho menu there is duplicated entrys of several apps, I guess this is probably something to review. I think the kde menu has too many categories and is a little messed. May be its me being a std fan  :)
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: The Headacher on June 20, 2007, 10:27:06 am
Having just installed Zenwalk 4 (from which I'm now posting), I have to say that whilst it's a visually attractive distro with nice wallpaper and themes for XFce, I can't see that it offers anything that Vector doesn't.
the better looking package that it is in .Visually appealing desktop,bootsplash,everything and their website too. Something that vector has to work on. ::)

Being more attractive in looks makes it a more tempting distro to the newbies.
First impressions are important.
You're the only one I've seen on the forum that keeps complaining about the looks ;). IIRC most reviews were pretty positive about it too.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: nubcnubdo on June 20, 2007, 10:51:06 am
If you peruse the Zenwalk forum, you will find many proponents view Zenwalk as a specialty Slackware for the original faithful, and not newbie friendly by design or intention. VL, in contrast, openly welcomes the newbie, with a unilateral contract, even. BTW, what happened to the "newbie friendly" campaign? We ought to kick that back in gear, reclaim Masta's artwork.

I have to confess, I cooked up this "Hook up with Zenwalk" thing as a ruse to tap the large membership of ZW. If those devotees just tried VL, I'm sure we could get a good number of converts. Increasing VL membership is really the hidden agenda. You ask why this thread--there you go.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: exeterdad on June 20, 2007, 10:57:33 am
Quote
If those devotees just tried VL, I'm sure we could get a good number of converts.

You are very naughty  ;D
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 20, 2007, 08:14:28 pm
Being more attractive in looks makes it a more tempting distro to the newbies.
First impressions are important.

VectorLinux looks good. Many new users who post here say that. Also, many reviews mention the attractiveness of VL.

In my opinion, "newbies" who would pass on Vector because they didn't think it was pretty enough are not the type of users VL is geared toward. Our distro appeals to users who want a no-nonsense, solid, stable operating system that allows but doesn't force eye candy on users.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: GrannyGeek on June 20, 2007, 08:27:47 pm
I have to confess, I cooked up this "Hook up with Zenwalk" thing as a ruse to tap the large membership of ZW. If those devotees just tried VL, I'm sure we could get a good number of converts. Increasing VL membership is really the hidden agenda. You ask why this thread--there you go.

That rubs me the wrong way. I don't like to see the choice of Linux distro as a competition. I detest religious language like "converts." I run away from evangelists. It's bad enough hearing the constant "convert Windows users" plots. It's even more annoying when we're also trying to convert users of other distros.

One of the glories of Linux is the wide choice of distros one can use. There really is something for every taste. Yes, we'd like to see more Vector users, but I do feel that if we get the word out, those for whom VL is the right choice will find us.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Kocil on June 20, 2007, 09:04:30 pm

I detest religious language like "converts." I run away from evangelists.
I'm with you  ;D

Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Colonel Panic on June 21, 2007, 01:14:36 am

I agree with both of Granny's posts above.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: blurymind on June 21, 2007, 01:29:52 am
Having just installed Zenwalk 4 (from which I'm now posting), I have to say that whilst it's a visually attractive distro with nice wallpaper and themes for XFce, I can't see that it offers anything that Vector doesn't.
the better looking package that it is in .Visually appealing desktop,bootsplash,everything and their website too. Something that vector has to work on. ::)

Being more attractive in looks makes it a more tempting distro to the newbies.
First impressions are important.
You're the only one I've seen on the forum that keeps complaining about the looks ;). IIRC most reviews were pretty positive about it too.
the website. The looks is good,but zen's is better.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 22, 2007, 02:26:51 pm
That rubs me the wrong way. I don't like to see the choice of Linux distro as a competition. I detest religious language like "converts." I run away from evangelists. It's bad enough hearing the constant "convert Windows users" plots. It's even more annoying when we're also trying to convert users of other distros.

See my signature; I agree. But there's a significant difference between most 'Linux advocacy' and evangelism proper. For instance, there was never a Linux equivalent of the Goa Inquisition.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: incognu on June 22, 2007, 10:40:08 pm
Quote
ZW has "one app for each task" as a policy.
That's a big reason why I've never bothered to really look at ZW.  I'm seriously allergic to that approach.  Vector's choice of apps -- and the kmenu not being simplified -- are some of the many reasons I find it such a great distro. 

I feel very strongly that VL shouldn't abandon its current approach, or try to become more like ZW.

...
One of the glories of Linux is the wide choice of distros one can use. There really is something for every taste. Yes, we'd like to see more Vector users, but I do feel that if we get the word out, those for whom VL is the right choice will find us.
--GrannyGeek
(emphasis added)
Absolutely.  The part I put in bold really resonates with me. 

One of the dangers of too much of an evangelistic approach is that of sacrificing what makes a distro -- or software -- uniquely appealing to those who currently use it, in order to copy the approach of a "rival" and hopefully get users from them.  You end up losing the good that you've got, and having one less real choice.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Toe on June 23, 2007, 04:15:07 am
Quote
ZW has "one app for each task" as a policy.
That's a big reason why I've never bothered to really look at ZW.  I'm seriously allergic to that approach.  Vector's choice of apps -- and the kmenu not being simplified -- are some of the many reasons I find it such a great distro. 

Your mention of kmenu gives you away as a KDE user, so I would assume that you're also a VL SOHO user.  Great choice!  :)

But there was once a distinction in the VL world that I feel is being forgotten more and more these days.

Once upon a time there were two versions of VL, one big and full-featured with everything someone like you could want, the other lightweight and minimalist for those who want a fast system they can build out as they choose.  But as of 5.8, I really feel that the latter is being forgotten, and we've ended up with two of the former, varying only in their default desktops.

I mean, 5.8 Std comes with four different browsers.  Even ignoring the question of whether anyone actually wants four browsers on their system, you have to ask yourself if that even comes near being light & minimalist.

One of the glories of Linux is the wide choice of distros one can use. There really is something for every taste.

Absolutely.

But please, people.  Let's not forget that this is really the home of two distros, for two different tastes.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Colonel Panic on June 23, 2007, 05:25:37 am

I agree, but I think the answer to the issue of bloat in Vector Standard is to have a "Vector Lite" with a smaller selection of software, and perhaps even a lightweight window manager like fluxbox as standard for installing on older computers.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: nightflier on June 23, 2007, 08:31:56 am
"Light" does not necessarily have to mean small install footprint.
I like VL because it "runs light", without a myriad of background processes.
I add a lot of apps, and my install consumes a lot of hard drive space, but that in itself does not slow down the system.

If you want to a small download, make it only the base system, plus slapt-get. Then the advanced user can take it from there.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on June 23, 2007, 10:35:38 am
I dont think VL needs to simplify th kmenu, I think avoiding duplicated entrys is a must and a usability principle. I use SOHO to test it, I really am a std users. Kde is not my taste, I admit.
BTW, Who had the idea of a k in every word?

Quote
If you want to a small download, make it only the base system, plus slapt-get. Then the advanced user can take it from there.

That is nice
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: incognu on June 23, 2007, 05:09:46 pm
Quote
ZW has "one app for each task" as a policy.
That's a big reason why I've never bothered to really look at ZW.  I'm seriously allergic to that approach.  Vector's choice of apps -- and the kmenu not being simplified -- are some of the many reasons I find it such a great distro. 

Your mention of kmenu gives you away as a KDE user, so I would assume that you're also a VL SOHO user.  Great choice!  :)

Close! My first experience of VL was a SOHO version, but I'm now running 5.8 standard gold, with KDE installed.  It runs so well, I haven't bothered to install 5.8 SOHO,  though I'm sure it's excellent.

Re things like the number of browsers present in the installer ... I see that as a good thing, as it gives people choice.  I forget what the browser options are (SM, FX, Opera, ?), but I just chose SeaMonkey: you don't have to install the ones you don't want.

The installer makes it easy to choose only what you want, and end up with a light install, while at the same time not presenting you with, for example, the tedious "menu" option in slack's install.

I'll have to admit, though, I haven't been thinking much in terms of the "2 distros" thing ... I do like the idea of being able easily to install as little as you wish initially, and then adding only what you need and want.  Hence perhaps my satisfaction with Standard + KDE.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: tomh38 on June 25, 2007, 07:29:09 am
I have nothing against Zenwalk (it's just not for me), and I like Vector the way it is.  Sure there are things which could be improved both with the distro and the website, but I think what's here is a great distro supported by a great community. 

One of the really nice things about Linux (or GNU/Linux if you prefer) is that there are so many choices tailored to all kinds of tastes and needs.  You don't find that with Windows or OS X.  Vector (both Standard and SOHO) serves the VL community very well as it is.  I would recommend that Vector Linux keep going the way it has been going.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 25, 2007, 07:44:20 am
If you want to a small download, make it only the base system, plus slapt-get. Then the advanced user can take it from there.

Well, I support filling the CD up, but keeping it one CD nonetheless. That way, one can copy the CD repeatedly and distribute a functional system for people who may have slow/flaky/no Internet. Our users are everywhere after all.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Toe on June 25, 2007, 01:56:15 pm
Well, I support filling the CD up, but keeping it one CD nonetheless. That way, one can copy the CD repeatedly and distribute a functional system for people who may have slow/flaky/no Internet. Our users are everywhere after all.

Your post seems to imply that everybody's got a buddy who 1: has a high-speed internet connection and CD burner, and 2: also has an interest in Linux.  I think that's rather over-optimistic, especially for less-developed parts of the world.

Plus, consider the popularity of distros like DSL and Puppy.  I think there's definitely a demand at the small-iso/mini-CD/flash drive/minimalist end of things.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 25, 2007, 02:01:15 pm
Well, nonetheless, I like the full-featured CD. It fills a different niche. At runtime, VL is still pretty damn slick, and that's what counts.

(The conditions of my Internet connection probably bias me.)
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: newt on June 25, 2007, 04:03:42 pm
Totally off-topic but related to the previous few posts:
I like the single, full CD release strategy that VL has going.  This was the single-most reason I tried VL.  I wanted to try some different distros but hated to waste bandwidth on 2/3/4/5/7 cd distros just to try them out.  One day I decided I'd only try single CD distros, and since I was already using slack I started with VL - Good choice I guess cause I'm still here ;D

I cannot remember which distro offers this feature but it seemed/seems pretty cool in concept:  It's a dymanically-created ISO release that contains only those items that the users selects to include in their ISO.  So if you just want a base system without X you can select that package only; or you can decide you want X as well and add that package; or you can decide you want it more server-based and leave off X but add some web, ftp, database, etc packages; etc... You get the idea - a "roll your own" approach to the ISO release.  Ironing out some of the bugs would probably be necessary but it could create a method were each user is using the common "base" while tailoring the rest to their intended purpose.  Options could be created to select the couple main releases we have (standard and soho) where a user just selects a 'SOHO' release and the required packages are autoselected.  This method probably wouldn't address the 64bit issue but some kind of solution could be created if/when needed.

Now I gotta find the distro because it intrigues me ;D
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Toe on June 25, 2007, 09:44:34 pm
Newtor, what you describe is pretty much exactly what I was advocating in this post (http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3097.msg19035#msg19035) with the jigdo/sligdo idea.

A similar option that would be nice is a Debian-style network install (http://www.us.debian.org/CD/netinst/).
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 26, 2007, 08:46:37 pm
Toe's description certainly reminded me of Slax.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Colonel Panic on June 26, 2007, 11:37:24 pm

Yeah, except that SLAX comes in a variety of different versions and is easily extensible, being modular.

It's good but I don't know if Vector should compete head on with it.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on June 27, 2007, 01:31:30 am
If in doubt, punt.
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: VecPad on July 19, 2007, 09:17:26 am
I can't even get Zenwalk to connect to the Internet. And be careful, in their forum there are some edgy characters.

As for me, no thank you Zenwalk.
Same problem for me, and I'm not even sure how they pulled this off! I've never encountered a distro that couldn't use an ethernet connection right away, LiveCD or otherwise. I tried very hard to troubleshoot the problem but got nowhere. Tough, because I really dig GTK apps, Xfce, and Zenwalk as a distro, but no internet is no internet.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on January 28, 2009, 01:57:41 pm
Or perhaps form something like the DCC Alliance (http://www.dccalliance.org/faq.html) (formerly Debian Core Consortium) for the Slackware world?  Come up with a common base for things like lib versions, repo format (spread the slapt-get + tlz love?), compile flags, etc.

Not sure if you guys are aware of this or not, but Ultima Linux (http://www.ultimalinux.com/) and Wolvix (http://wolvix.org/) have recently agreed to colaborate with each other (http://www.ultimalinux.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=476).  Perhaps that would be a good place to begin such a discussion?

I'm just now coming across this topic after being in a situation where I'm still looking for something more than what I've been using. What I've been using is mostly Slackware. But I have been looking for something substantially more potent. So here I find myself after searching for more information about the various Slackware-based distributions.

I'm trying to find people who are willing to work together and put parochial considerations aside. I have made contact with two other leaders with different projects. And as I have done with Vector, I have also introduced them to src2pkg (http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/amigolinux/download/src2pkg/src2pkg-1.9.7-noarch-17.tgz). Since this is the tool I use to build all of my packages, I suggest it to anyone looking to minimize the amount of work they have to do to maintain their projects. It seems now that one of these projects will now be using src2pkg from this point on.

After reading about Zenwalk, I decided to investigate it more thoroughly than I had in the past. I have built and installed their NetPKG along with the dependencies. After careful consideration last night and early this morning, I have determined that the dependency tracking ability of Zenwalk is something that I need in the continuation of my project. Being that I'm working to create a server system likely to be used in large installations (with native clustering and all server applications preconfigured), dependency tracking is of the highest concern to me. I can not have a situation where users are having to work, just to be able to work. The notion of Zenwalk that everything be done for the user during installation of their packages, and not having to configure things later, is very appealing to me. That doesn't mean I'm perfectly satisfied with all of Zenwalk's decisions. One of the most important points of contention for me is the removal of all debugging tools.

For my application, where my system is likely to be used by those who have to build private packages in the course of their work, debugging tools are a necessity, not an option. What I'm building is a Public Technology Library. Everything that professionals use in research environments will have to be standard and installed without user intervention. Where I define intervention as a distraction from their daily duties. I need industrial-strength tools with point and click accessibility. My users cannot be forced to go looking for what they need. It simply needs to be there and ready to use. Broken dependencies would deter that ability, and therefore cannot be allowed. And in the event of packages failing to work as anticipated, the tools must be there for them to make proper bug reports to the appropriate developers. This must be a professional system. Nothing less can be tolerated.

I will continue posting here as I read through the rest of the comments in this topic.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on January 28, 2009, 02:18:06 pm
I guess one of the first "obstacles" would be whether or not they are prepared to adopt LZMA compression for their packages, because I don't think thats something VL will ever drop... :-X

This is something that is definitely important to me. I started using .tlz long before I started using Vector. It was because of my building my own packages, that I came across tukbuild, created by Lasse Colin, the author of pkgtools-tukaani. Now that he has moved on to create "xz" the replacement for lzma, I will be using whatever he does now with pkgtools. Given the tremendous size of my distribution, I can't use anything that doesn't provide the highest compression possible. This is also why all of my packages will be using upx-ucl to compress binaries.

In this regard, I have also considered using another program called "dact", which selects the best compression algorithm for each block. I have contacted the author for consideration of making dact a dynamically compressed self-extracting archives. It would be the best of two worlds. Upx allows binaries to self-extract, but is limited to a specific algorithm. Dact is a dynamic compressor, but currently doesn't self-extract. Having both would mean using very small binaries with compression optimized according to the size of the blocks in each file, and then being able to use those without any prior decompression. More binaries could then fit in smaller spaces. So I too am not willing to abandon the tlz package format, or whatever replaces it.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on January 28, 2009, 02:31:23 pm
Of course, this is just a ligth talk. About the packaging box, I read a thread about making a packaging structure without the need of a full install (I think with chroot or something like that). May be this can be done: a bash script will setup a packaging enviroment folowing some standards. Just a command needs to be executed to setup the propers vars. Of course, the setup needs to be compatible with all the distros involved. The script will ensure all the pack boxes has the same setup.

This is where I think it would be highly beneficial to everyone to have a core set of tools (a unified toolchain and libraries) from which all Slackware-based distributions are built upon. That core set should like concentrate on the /a /d and /l directories in the Slackware repositories. I think the rest of the system should be added on with the utility of meta-packages, managing the installation of all required dependencies. The Layman project in Gentoo is something that I personally have high regard for. The idea of package sets all being built upon a common foundation would remove all of the confusion that now exists here, attempting to use packages from outside the core system you installed.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on January 28, 2009, 03:09:32 pm

From my reading, I gather that there definitely is no consensus between ZW Forum members for Zenwalk to be newbie friendly. 



This is something that could never be tolerated with a distribution dedicated to professionals. They simply wouldn't allow the kind of disrespect that so often flies around in forums like these. There would have to be a decorum that promotes users to communicate freely without fear of being insulted, because someone else has determined that their question or idea is "stupid and idiotic". The stupidity would the respondent to requests for help, and not giving it in a clear manner that doesn't condemn someone for having asked.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on January 28, 2009, 03:47:56 pm
Shuttleworth has a plan to coordinate collaboration between distros with a common forum, a forum specifically dedicated to the collaboration.

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8470376604.html

We could have a Slackware-derivative forum for:
VectorLinux
Zenwalk
Wolvix
Ultima
Absolute
Frugalware
GoblinX

But I bet such a forum would be the birthplace of yet another Slackware distro. LOL

Maybe there could be a common forum between just Zenwalk and VL.

Or, VL and ZW could co-sponsor an extra complementary section in each other's forum. With good linking, it would be like having common forums. Zenwalk uses the same SMF forum software, doesnt it? Hmm



Now that I've read this, let me point a few things out.

It really addresses the very things I've been envisioning. This really gets at what I suggested about having all packages built with debugging tools not stripped. We can't very well move forward as a community, when major members of it are crippling the very things we need to advance. One of the things that I have sought to do is create a public (as in Linux-wide) community build environment, in which all software is built and tested against the others present, to verify conformity and integrity throughout the entire system. All too often, packages have conflicts and dependencies which prevent them or others from working as the user expected them to. Sometimes, not at all. Most developers don't have the resources to test their work in every imaginable scenario. Having a community accessible build system would serve to eliminate most of these problems. And having all packages compiled in a single environment guarantees that collaboration is less of an issue. The very thing that Mark Shuttleworth suggests, would no longer be just a dream, but a reality.

This is where Slackware can succeed where others cannot. Since Slackware has historically used the original sources with little (or no) modification (except as really required), developers could use a system like this built upon a common Slackware toolchain and libraries to verify their work. And having a tool like src2pkg (http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/amigolinux/download/src2pkg/src2pkg-1.9.7-noarch-17.tgz) would lessen the headache each of them currently experience.

Using src2pkg throughout Linux proper would help establish and maintain standards in how Makefiles are written and maintained. And that's one of the biggest problems facing developers. Every one now is doing whatever they want without concern for how it affects the work of others. The situation has devolved into a condition of selfishness. And that alone undermines the great task ahead of Linux in competing with the corporate interests which would rather we not be here.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: tomh38 on January 30, 2009, 02:36:59 am
Edited for content.  See below.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on January 31, 2009, 06:45:32 pm
The pettiness with which so many Linux users approach issues suggested for real change, makes me wonder where the intelligence comes from to actually use Linux. But I really think the last post directly addresses the issues many if not most Linux users are actually concerned with more than anything else. Linux, and the distributions in particular that are chosen become an expression of one's identity. It's not an issue of what works, but rather very often, "what makes me feel the most special. It's sad just how many times I hear the same refrain. The bottom line is a fear of change. The status quo becomes one's identity. So that no matter how much better something new may be than what one is accustomed to, it's rejected in favor of familiarity. Sad indeed, but ultimately the reality for most.

And then there's this illusion of independence. The desire to see one's self as special for the amount of work the individual must do to maintain the distribution they run. So any time new approaches are suggested or revealed to limit the amount of required work, they are rejected again because it would change their identity on independence. It's as though having to dig with one's fingers is more desirable than a robotic back hoe.

But I'm still looking for some sign of higher intelligence displayed in the management of a distribution. I think the essential reality for me is that I need professional services. To expect that from anyone not using or building a distribution as a professional, is simply illogical. So I have to find a professional distribution, even if it is small and specialized. I may have found that with HostGIS (http://www.hostgis.com/linux/wiki/index.php?title=Welcome). It's another Slackware-based system. But it's dedicated to professionals who use the product at work. So it has an entirely different mindset than what other's would be accustomed to. It's the kind of mindset that I prefer.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: rbistolfi on January 31, 2009, 07:01:09 pm
So any time new approaches are suggested or revealed to limit the amount of required work, they are rejected again because it would change their identity on independence.

Well, you are assuming a lot there. Maybe the suggestion were not so good, or hard to implement.

Quote
But I'm still looking for some sign of higher intelligence displayed in the management of a distribution.

You will need a higher intelligence to recognize it also. It is a 3000 years old paradox.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: tomh38 on January 31, 2009, 07:40:03 pm
Edited for content.  See below.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on February 01, 2009, 01:49:20 pm
Hello Shingoshi:
My name is Darrell Co-Founder of VL with Robert I have been following this thread for some time and am a bit confused as to what exactly you are looking for? Is it a Linux O/S that you can use for your purposes or one that you can contribute to? Or perhaps both?
I simply cannot understand what you are looking for? Perhaps if you explained that we could better understand you , perhaps?
As it currently stands in my opinion, you are looking for a Linux or otherwise O/S fully developed to suit your needs? For free? Is that correct?
I find that difficult to comprehend and invite you to better explain your needs so we do not see you as a complete waste of our bandwidth, which BTW is were you currently stand in my opinion.
So please feel free to further enlighten us as to what it is you need and expect. Also can you contribute in development or perhaps financial assistance to VL?
I look forward to your answer(s).
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on February 01, 2009, 02:16:41 pm
Regarding a private message I received, I hope this clears things up.

I'm looking for the means to build an advanced system upon an already strong foundation which doesn't yet provide the services that I desire to distribute to users. Essentially, I'm looking to create a Public Technology Library for groups that simply don't have the resources and experience to deploy the systems they need on their own. So I want to deliver fully preconfigured systems that are ready to use by anyone. Once they have their system installed, they can always alter it to meet their needs as they become more experienced.

But servers like MySQL, Postgresql and others like them must be ready to use, without figuring out how to get them started, just so that the user can start to work.

I hope that explains better my intent.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: metvas on February 01, 2009, 03:04:42 pm
Hello Shingoshi;
I do not mean to discourage you nor steer you to re-creating the wheel. However we have been at this for over a decade and what you are contemplating does not exit anywhere not at M$, not at Apple not at Sun and not at VL or  any other open source project I am aware of. Should I be incorrect with that statement please correct me.
To even suggest that http://www.hostgis.com/linux/wiki/index.php?title=Welcome  (http://www.hostgis.com/linux/wiki/index.php?title=Welcome) is a user friendly project lends insult to my intelligence and exposes your lack of technical intelligence, to which I take extreme exception and extend that exception to the entire hard working VL community.
 I would suggest you read the IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) site. They have made huge strides with open source projects. Perhaps suggest your intentions there to see what they might say about it all.
To demean VL as we lack your interpretation of intelligence or dedication to GNU philosophy  is shamefully exposing your lack of research to date !
If you have something constructive to contribute to VL. Please keep involved. If however you wish to insult our excellent work and dedication to those who cannot afford bleeding edge technology. Please move on we are busy helping those you only talk about helping but are doing nothing concrete about it. No one wants to hear about what you have not done. When you have done it please let us know. I personally would be very excited to hear about it all.
There is a word in the Oxford dictionary I will spell it out for you Quixotic. I suggest you look it up.
I wish you the very best in your future endevours, keep us posted as to your progress. Our forum is legendary in helping whoever and whenever possible for free.
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Shingoshi on February 01, 2009, 03:41:42 pm
I used HostGIS as an example of a preconfigured system, with the server components already in place and running. It's like having LAMPP or any of the others like it, preconfigured. I was very pleased to install it and find Webmin already had the databases open and ready to use. I am aware that HostGIS isn't a full system. And even the author is looking for a better desktop. But the point I'm most concerned with is, can a user go to work immediately, or have to work to get to work. MySQL was a nightmare to configure. My point is for users who have little if any experience configuring systems, won't be stopped from using the tools they need most of all. I'm looking to provide everything in a point-and-click nature. This system isn't directed at people who have no other desire than to learn Linux (on a command line).

So I'm sorry you're offended. Most of you really don't want anything like that ever happening. To use GUIs is for many Linux users seen as incompetence. Which is why my suggestions concerning GUIs are often met with insults. That's fine if it's your hobby. But if it's work, you don't want to work more than you need to. I fondly remember the first time I saw the Sun Desktop back in 1989. I knew right away, "that's something I can "work" with. I saw a computer that said, "come on and sit down and tell me what you need to do. It wasn't something that I needed or wanted the computer to tell me what it wanted me to do.

And there are many working examples of systems that were rejected by the original group from which they started, and work wonderfully. If the users of VectorLinux were perfectly happy with Slackware, they wouldn't have left it in the first place.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: GrannyGeek on February 01, 2009, 03:56:08 pm
Shingoshi,

One of the beauties of Linux is that there are distributions for just about any need. One size doesn't fit all and in my opinion, it is better to find a distro designed from the outset for what you want than to try to add or remove features from a distro designed for something that doesn't fit your needs.

VectorLinux is targeted at home and small business desktop users. It is not designed to be a server distro, though with some work it can be modified for that use. So at the outset, I don't think VL is close to what you need. You might do better with something like Red Hat, Slackware, SuSE, or distros that will most likely be used for servers.

I don't think it is insulting to VL if you say we're not what you're looking for. I do wonder, though, if what you want is even possible. Will all your users have the same hardware? How else could you "deliver fully preconfigured systems that are ready to use by anyone"? Certainly you could develop a distro that could provide identical software configurations (I think most distros already do that if one accepts the defaults), but if the hardware isn't very similar, one size wouldn't fit all. I don't have much technical knowledge and could be entirely wrong, in which case I would be happy to be corrected.

When you say "it's dedicated to professionals who use the product at work. So it has an entirely different mindset than what other's would be accustomed to. It's the kind of mindset that I prefer," I think many of us aren't sure what you mean. Red Hat and SuSE are targeted to the enterprise user. VectorLinux is not. But that doesn't make VL and its developers "unprofessional." They are quite professional in providing a product that meets the needs of home and small business users very well. Many of us Vector users would be quite upset if VL's focus changed from the desktop user to whatever you mean by "professionals." There are other distros for that.

I wish you luck in your quest.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: tomh38 on February 03, 2009, 02:11:24 pm
Shingoshi:

Being so critical of people who want to help you and would if they knew what you wanted makes me think you need to be more clear and less demanding.

Tom

EDIT:  I removed an image because another member considered it inapropriate.  My apologies to that member and to anyone else who was offended.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: caitlyn on February 03, 2009, 04:06:36 pm
I always talk about how helpful and friendly the Vector Linux community is.  Tom, with all due respect, this is the second thread where I've seen you post something totally inappropriate in recent days.  It reflects poorly on you and on the Vector Linux community as a whole.
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on February 03, 2009, 04:25:12 pm
I always talk about how helpful and friendly the Vector Linux community is.  Tom, with all due respect, this is the second thread where I've seen you post something totally inappropriate in recent days.  It reflects poorly on you and on the Vector Linux community as a whole.

For the record: I thought his post was terribly funny

Maybe in real life, that would pushing it, but Internets aren't srs business, at least not to the same extent as real life. Also those were only acronyms.

Now, let's all chill out (http://www.hongkongdubstation.com/tapeplayer/celestial_tape_player.htm)
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: caitlyn on February 03, 2009, 05:51:08 pm
EDIT:  The offensive material in this thread and in a sig were removed.  Thank you both for showing some sensitivity and doing that.

The way Vector Linux is viewed by the public is based on what they see here. 
Title: Re: Hook up with Zenwalk
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on February 03, 2009, 06:47:48 pm
You, with the INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE are in no position to lecture anyone.

That is why I like hanging out with Chinese ppl.

They know what it's like to be put-upon, ambitious and misunderstood. They also value being "good at giving speech", as one of my friends put it.

"Already, millions look to the wàn, full of hope."

lul