VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: nubcnubdo on October 26, 2007, 10:49:31 am

Title: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: nubcnubdo on October 26, 2007, 10:49:31 am
I guess it is just a matter of time: Microsoft is working on, investing in a stripped-down version of XP for the One Laptop Per Child program.
http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,62033818,00.htm


Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 23, 2008, 05:39:45 am
M$ has earmarked $235.5M for educating students and teachers worldwide in the use of Windows XP and Vista, in response to recent successes of Linux on such projects as OLPC.
http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2008/01/22/windows-xp-takes-linux-away-from-our-children/

Chuckle of the Day: Ayala [of Microsoft’s education division] said, "Frankly, we welcome the competition.''

How bout: "We quash the competition."

or: "We purchase the competition."
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 23, 2008, 09:20:07 am
B-b-b-but Vista's great if you have the right hardware!!  XP is the best OS ever!  Microsoft is just engaging in free enterprise, is that so wrong!?!
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: MikeCindi on January 23, 2008, 10:55:40 am
tomh38...stirrin' the pot again... ;)
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: Steve_Barker on January 24, 2008, 04:43:33 am
  XP is the best OS ever! 

Must be a different XP from the one I endure at work ???

  Microsoft is just engaging in free enterprise, is that so wrong!?!

Using size and financial clout is not competition - putting forward a good product is.

Using size and financial clout is not competition - it just forces one companies products onto everyone, and in time, if unchecked, at whatever price they want to charge.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 24, 2008, 06:16:06 am
Ding ding ding!!  We have a winner!

Well, two winners actually:

mikecindi for knowing that I was being (um ... is it irony or sarcasm when you mean the opposite of what you say?) ... whatever

and

Steve_Barker for pointing out just a few of the flaws in what I wrote

Just so that I'm clear for people who don't know me:  I hate Microsoft, both for all of the crapware they've put out over the years and for steamrolling all competition, real or potential, that has ever come along.

HATE
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 24, 2008, 07:41:30 am
You wanna talk about irony?  I got your irony right here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120113473219511791.html?mod=djemalertTECH (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120113473219511791.html?mod=djemalertTECH)

I'm LMFAO over here.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: metvas on January 24, 2008, 09:47:00 am
We (Vector) are just one small clog in the Open Source wheel, but strong enough to be part of tide turning. congrats to everyone. M$ would NEVER have done this if we had not worked to diligently to force them to. My opinion FWIW.
Darrell
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: nightflier on January 24, 2008, 11:05:53 am
I second that. Without the competition from Open Source, the "One OS to rule them all" would by now have been such a huge, inflexible and expensive beast that projects like OLPC, the Eee PC and others could not have evolved.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 24, 2008, 11:48:59 am
metvas, nightflier, you guys are right ...

The funny thing is (and this time I mean funny in the sense of humorous) that Microsoft doesn't really seem to be aware that this is happening.  Sure, they try to drum up some phony patent claims, or they try to horn in on OLPC, but otherwise they act like they're still King of the World.

They are.  For now.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: MikeCindi on January 24, 2008, 01:33:14 pm
sarcasm - remarks that mean the opposite of what they seem to say and are intended to mock or deride (taken from Encarta Dictionary via MS Word research "plug-in" and that is irony)
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 26, 2008, 06:48:00 pm
Hey--

Has everyone here forgotten that Microsoft and Linux aren't the only games in town? There is also Mac OS, which has a small but growing market share and poses more competition to Microsoft than Linux does. So get over the paranoia. Microsoft can't take over the world as long as the Mac is around. People have ALWAYS had a choice as long as personal computers have been around. They've chosen Windows by a large majority. Sure, you can argue that they didn't really have a choice because most users are not knowledgeable, they don't know Linux exists, they're used to Windows, probably use it at work and school, they think their operating system is Microsoft Word, and all the computers they see in the store come with Windows installed. But if people really felt under Microsoft's thumb, they had every opportunity to get something else--the Mac has been there, they've heard of it, they can use the same programs they use on Windows, and they can buy a computer with the Mac OS preinstalled.

It was announced many months ago that Microsoft was working on a version of XP for the OLPC. You can't seriously expect Microsoft to pass up an opportunity to get in on this. They owe it to their stockholders. Nick Negroponte was very excited and positive about Microsoft's working on a Windows for OLPC.

I think the ASUS eee and other low-cost computers would have entered the market no matter what. It's not the presence of Linux that enables them, it's the attraction of a low-cost machine that is usable by the masses. The eee is XP-capable, comes with drivers for XP, so we'll see whether buyers are content with the Linux on it or switch it to XP.

There are a number of factors that make this a good time for low-cost computers like the eee and the $200 desktops now available. One is the availability of broadband, which enables the eee to use Web 2.0 applications rather than big locally installed programs. Another is the large number of users whose requirements are mainly Internet, e-mail, IM, photo viewing, and listening to music. For that kind of use, the operating system is irrelevant. Linux has reached the point where it can do those things at least as well as Windows and without a bigger learning curve.

My hope is that the eee and other low-cost computers with Linux preinstalled will introduce the masses to Linux and get rid of the stereotype that Linux is a geeks' OS. You'll never get anywhere by bashing Micosoft. Most people just don't care and they'll probably think you're a fanatic fanboy. But if people get a chance to actually use Linux and see that it's easy to use, looks good, is less expensive than commercial software and OSes, and can do the things they want a computer for, they'll be more willing to take the plunge on their desktop computers, too.

Note I said "is less expensive." I think all this talk about Linux being free as in beer does a disservice to Linux. Most Linux projects are starved for cash. And why is that? Because people think "it's free"--as if developers and the companies behind various distros don't need and deserve compensation. In fact, they can't survive if no cash comes in. So at least pony up the $27 for the Deluxe CD or make an equivalent donation, and if you can't afford that, donate what you can!
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: nightflier on January 27, 2008, 06:28:47 am
True, Linux is not the only open source competition. Mac OSX is built on an open source foundation.

Still, without Linux, I doubt that the OLPC project could have easily convinced MS or Apple to heavily modify their flagship products to fit a low spec, low cost machine.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 27, 2008, 09:07:08 am
Quote
So get over the paranoia.

Is it paranoia if they really have done all kinds anti-competitive things, have broken the law, have plotted to destroy Linux (Halloween letters, SCO, recent secret imaginary patents)?

Oh, and get over the name-calling, GrannyGeek.

If you can't make rational arguments without calling people fanatic fanboys, conspiracy theorists, paranoid, etc., ... that's just sad.

Also, why not bash Microsoft?  They have a chokehold on the personal computer market that they'll do anything to hold on to, and their software sucks.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 27, 2008, 04:15:46 pm
A few other things ...

Apple uses closed hardware, and most of their OS X (the important parts, otherwise just run FreeBSD) is also closed.  iPhone and MacBook Air anyone?

Microsoft may feel that they "owe it to their stockholders" to horn in on OLPC, but I think the OLPC people have an even more important duty to keep Microsoft's garbageware out of what is essentially a charitable project to provide poor children with usable computers. Nicholas Negroponte may disagree, and though I have respect for the man, I think that it's a mistake on his part to be "very excited and positive" about XP for OLPC.

Furthermore, I mostly bash MS in here and with a few Linux using friends.  Most other people don't even know what an OS is, nor do they care.

Way back in the 80s, Richard Stallman had this revolutionary idea about software being free as in freedom.  Without that idea, there would be no GNU, and without Linus Torvalds writing the Linux kernel "just for fun" (for a long time anyway) there would be no GNU/Linux.

Microsoft's stockholders can toast in heck for all I care.  Money is important, but there are more important things in life than money.  Should people give up their freedom for money?

Oh yeah ... I bought the Deluxe VL, and I hope a lot of other people will also.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: Freston on January 28, 2008, 02:04:04 pm
Quote from: tomh38
Oh yeah ... I bought the Deluxe VL, and I hope a lot of other people will also.
Well, as it seems someone here at VL managed to find a boat to the Netherlands, 'cuz my order status just changed to 'shipping'.


But what was there about ... who?? Microsomething? Yeah... that was optional on the laptop I've just bought. O.o Was I supposed to have that?? *hides quickly*
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: metvas on January 28, 2008, 02:58:23 pm
Was or is  there a problem with you order?
Regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: Freston on January 28, 2008, 03:35:08 pm
Quote from: metvas
Was or is  there a problem with you order?
No  :P I was derailing (but I'm pleading ignorance  ::))

Things can always go wrong. But I was quite pleased with the speed 'till now. I don't want to challenge the gods on this one, but I'm getting messages about the progress so I'm confident :D




It's just... maybe because I'm Dutch... 'shipping' seemed funny to me. I know what it means, but it  made me think of .. ehm .. 'ships'. Nevermind  ;)


Thanks for asking by the way :D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: metvas on January 28, 2008, 08:08:50 pm
Hi:
There are only 4 options in the ship/shipping field at Paypal. shipping was the wrong one if that is what you got. It should have said "shipped". Not as in Queen Mary but as in...just kidding...LOL
Darrell
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 29, 2008, 01:53:01 pm
Seven Stunning Facts About Microsoft’s Profits
http://www.thevarguy.com/2008/01/28/seven-stunning-facts-about-microsofts-profits/
Quote
it takes Microsoft only about…
# Three hours to exceed Salesforce.com’s quarterly net income of $6.5 million
# Ten hours to exceed Red Hat’s quarterly net income of $20.3 million
# Three-and-a-half days to exceed Harley Davidson’s quarterly net income of $186.1 million
# Ten days to exceed Target Stores’ quarterly net income of $483 million
# Thirty days to exceed Apple’s quarterly net income of $1.58 billion
# Thirty-three days to exceed PepsiCo’s quarterly net income of $1.7 billion
# Seventy-six days to exceed IBM’s quarterly net income of $3.95 billio

comments to article are interesting too
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on January 29, 2008, 02:06:32 pm
I think we don't have to worry about MS working in OLPC boxes. As nightflier pointed, Linux powered the project and finally made the goal: kids with computers. I want to point the problem is not the size of the MS market share, the problem is the monopolistic practice.  Tom is right in something, MS was very aggressive with the Linux community in the past, and as my granny uses to say, "el que se quema con leche ve una vaca y llora".
Anyway, I will not bash MS anymore, it push me away from the Linux shell :D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 29, 2008, 02:41:47 pm
You know, one time when I was kid, I got burned by some milk.  The next time I saw a cow, I started crying.  So that's a very wise saying.  ;D

There's also the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."

Quote
I will not bash MS anymore, it push me away from the Linux shell.
ROFL

I wouldn't bash MS or complain about Windows if they didn't keep finding ways of intruding into my life.  I'm sure some of you know how it is ... once a few people find out that you know even a little about computers, you never stop getting phone calls for help.  And every time I get reminded in this very annoying way, I think of all the other crap.  I dunno ... maybe that makes me a Linux fanboy or something.  I really don't care if it does.  I'm just so very tired of you-know-what made by you-know-who.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on January 29, 2008, 03:05:06 pm
LOL I will have to be careful with my Spanish here..., I wanted to quote my granny and she can't speak English. I love... how do you call it? We call them "refranes", like a common place. I have an aunt from Barcelona and she knows tons of them, like "en casa de herrero cuchillo de palo", I think they are a very Iberic tradition (my granny family comes from Pais Vasco.)
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 30, 2008, 01:38:28 am
rbistolfi

If I remember correctly, a "refran" is in English a "proverb" or "saying," in other words as you said a commonplace idea which expresses a sort of folk wisdom.  In the English-speaking world, very many of these proverbs come from two places:  1) The King James Bible, and 2) Shakespeare.  And then there are a lot of other much smaller sources.

I hope you didn't think I was making fun of your grandmother or her sayings.  The proverb "el que se quema con leche ve una vaca y llora" expresses something very basic about human (or even animal) psychology, i.e. we tend to develop aversion to things which have hurt us in the past.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 30, 2008, 03:06:47 am

Macs are expensive in the UK; I saw one in a local computer shop, complete with TFT monitor, for 1600 pounds (about $3000 US) secondhand, though it looked very stylish. So for that reason alone most people here stick with PCs, and they normally come with Windows though I have seen a secondhand one (in the same shop) with Ubuntu installed.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on January 30, 2008, 03:08:38 am

rbistolfi

If I remember correctly, a "refran" is in English a "proverb" or "saying," in other words as you said a commonplace idea which expresses a sort of folk wisdom.  In the English-speaking world, very many of these proverbs come from two places:  1) The King James Bible, and 2) Shakespeare.  And then there are a lot of other much smaller sources.

"Saying" sounds accurate, and your definition too. I think they are really nice, in this times when we refer to "tradition" only as an oppressive thing, the provers seems to be a funny way of "passing wisdom" in a oral way, which is not very common now. And the "character" who is saying them all the time is just cute, very common here in immigrants  from Spain with a few years.

Quote
I hope you didn't think I was making fun of your grandmother or her sayings.  The proverb "el que se quema con leche ve una vaca y llora" expresses something very basic about human (or even animal) psychology, i.e. we tend to develop aversion to things which have hurt us in the past.

Oh, not at all Tom, but I was making fun a little ;D, I will confess to her today :). I was surprised because you got it right there, as I like to say -perhaps steal from Aristotle, the great- "happiness is to be understood". I remember a story about a very old man from China who used to scream some aenigma, just hoping to be guessed. There is clearly a nice concept about "community" in all this stuff. Well I am bashing MS after all ;D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 30, 2008, 06:53:18 am
rbistolfi

I had a grandmother (my mother's mother) who was what we call a "character" - sort of an odd or funny person but in a good way.  When we would eat with her or she with us, she would say the prayer before the meal:  "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, whoever eats the fastest gets the most."  She was also always stealing parking places from people, slipping in just as someone else was about to park their car.  My mother would yell at her, but my grandmother would just say "That's what they got brakes for."  She died when I was only ten, but I still miss her.

Anyway, I think you're right about sayings/proverbs and passing down oral wisdom.  I suppose before the invention of the printing press, these sayings were one of the main ways of passing knowledge from one generation to the next, since most people couldn't read.

My grandmother had a saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."  This was first said by Alexander Pope, I think some time in the 18th century.  It's funny that I remember that after all these years, but it goes toward proving your point about proverbs and passing down oral wisdom.

On the subject of computers ... I think one of the great challenges of the "information age" is that now there is so much information that it is very difficult to sort out what's good from what's garbage.  I would like to see into the future a few centuries and know how generations to come will deal with this.

Tom
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on January 30, 2008, 07:18:18 am
Yeah I know the feeling. My grandmother is not very well, the years finally got her, and we lost gandpa a few years ago. Your's must have been a lovely woman, and I took note of her pray, I am sure she never guessed someone in the other side of the world could repeat it.
The most thing I give value in the oral traditions is not the wisdom per se, which can be good or not,  but the relations between who speaks and who listen, and the way of interacting between members of the community. After all, to be a member of a community -that is, to share a language- is to share a past, most of the time a mythical one, and a future, or common goal or cause, which is a projection of that past.
Surely the "hyper-information" has its troubles, and could be really interesting to see how this thing will finally end. I see a furure with millions of persons doing a silence vote reacting against all this information (which is most of the time pseudo-information) all over the place :D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: BlueMage on January 30, 2008, 03:32:54 pm

Macs are expensive in the UK; I saw one in a local computer shop, complete with TFT monitor, for 1600 pounds (about $3000 US) secondhand, though it looked very stylish. So for that reason alone most people here stick with PCs, and they normally come with Windows though I have seen a secondhand one (in the same shop) with Ubuntu installed.

Now that's interesting... here in .au you can get a top-of-the-line Intel-based iMac for under 3000AUD (which I know is less than 3000USD).  I'm wondering, this second-hand one, would it be a G5 or similar (one of Apple's few bulky PC-esque machines)?
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on January 30, 2008, 03:40:57 pm

Macs are expensive in the UK; I saw one in a local computer shop, complete with TFT monitor, for 1600 pounds (about $3000 US) secondhand, though it looked very stylish. So for that reason alone most people here stick with PCs, and they normally come with Windows though I have seen a secondhand one (in the same shop) with Ubuntu installed.

Now that's interesting... here in .au you can get a top-of-the-line Intel-based iMac for under 3000AUD (which I know is less than 3000USD).  I'm wondering, this second-hand one, would it be a G5 or similar (one of Apple's few bulky PC-esque machines)?

3000 USD!!!!  :o. I have to work a little less than one year to earn that, without eating of course :(
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: metvas on January 30, 2008, 06:02:38 pm
Is that 3000.00 as in $$  ???I have not seen a PC box in Canada for that much cash.  ???
hey rbistolf remember about this time last year we talked about temperatures in our respective regions. Today here - 31 c factor in wind chill and - 47 c. Was wondering if you had a spare room for a few weeks..lol
regards
Darrell
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on January 30, 2008, 06:44:55 pm
Oh, I think we misunderstood BlueMage, is 3000 AUD, not USD.

Is that 3000.00 as in $$  ???I have not seen a PC box in Canada for that much cash.  ???
hey rbistolf remember about this time last year we talked about temperatures in our respective regions. Today here - 31 c factor in wind chill and - 47 c. Was wondering if you had a spare room for a few weeks..lol
regards
Darrell

 :o -31!!!! LOL Darrel, we are having a hot summer, with temps about 30ºC and we had peaks of 40ºC with 30ºC at nights the past month. Of course, unable to sleep at all, I chatted with EpicFailGuy aka Hanumizzle, Kidd and DrGrov at #vectorlinux the hole night.
Now you know the situation perhaps you have second thoughts, but if you can take the heat, I do have a spare room for you :). I already offered the room to another vectorians, and even I offered to paid the beer and food, but nobody seems to want to pay the trip :D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: BlueMage on January 30, 2008, 10:28:32 pm
Well, 3000AUD is approximately 2700USD or thereabouts, given current exchange rates.  Either way, we in Australia get royally SCREWED on PC hardware.  And by scewed, I mean right up the rear end.  Without lube.

And I still put myself through the pain that is being a PC gamer :(
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 31, 2008, 04:57:00 am
A US judge has, in a completely unfair move, extended federal sanctions against Microsoft by two years.  You can read about it here (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080130-doj-fits-microsoft-with-another-two-year-long-leash.html).  This is all about some alleged abuse of monopoly power which Microsoft supposedly committed.  We all know this isn't true, since there is no monopoly because you can always buy a Mac.

I'm getting together a petition to protest this move.  You all can show show your support for the completely fair and legal Microsoft Corporation, which always puts out excellent software, by signing the petition here (http://www.linux.gr/logos/penguins_high-quality_pngs/tux.bigger.png).
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: Colonel Panic on January 31, 2008, 07:29:54 am

Here's a more current list of Mac prices in the UK from a Mac reseller, these are about the best you'll get;

http://www.macwarehouse.co.uk/catalogue/Computers/Apple/Desktop%20-%20Apple?sort=price&start=1&size=15
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 31, 2008, 07:38:17 am
So, Colonel Panic, are you saying that in the UK buying a Mac is too expensive for most people?

But that would mean ... oh God, I can't bear to think it ... I'm going to stick my head in the oven ... wait, I have an electric oven ... maybe I'll pee on the power supply of my Vector Linux PC ... *sob*.

Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: exeterdad on January 31, 2008, 10:32:00 am
Sometimes I worry about you Tom.
Or should I be more worried about the young minds you are teaching? :D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on January 31, 2008, 12:34:35 pm
Minds?  They have minds!?! Oh shi-

Be right back.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: GrannyGeek on January 31, 2008, 10:56:04 pm
If you can't make rational arguments without calling people fanatic fanboys, conspiracy theorists, paranoid, etc., ... that's just sad.

Hey--do you deny that fanatics, fanboys, conspiracy theorists, and paranoid people exist? I didn't call anyone here a fanatic fanboy. What I said was "regular users" are often turned off by Microsoft bashing in public forums and lump the bashers into the "fanboy" category. I'm more interested in getting ordinary users to give Linux a try and I don't think we get there by saying "switch to Linux because Windows is terrible and Microsoft is the spawn of the devil."

It was John Dvorak, I think, who got actual death threats when he wrote a column criticizing Apple about something a few years ago. Would you call those people fanatics? When I read "over the top" comments in Feedback and Talkback on various computer Web sites, I don't feel like rushing out and trying the Mac OS, I feel like running in the opposite direction as fast as I can. Many people share my reaction.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on February 01, 2008, 04:26:29 am
Hi GrannyGeek! Had been some time!

I agree some Linux users seems to spend more time bashing MS than using Linux. Perhaps there is "Fanatics".  But "conspiracy theorists", "paranoid", hmm, perhaps is a consequence of  Ms attitude over the years.
In the other hand, many of us have been spending some time thinking about this and trying to give a rational base to  our choices and actions, is natural some people will get offended if they are called "fanatic". I see was a misunderstood though.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 01, 2008, 06:31:09 am
GrannyGeek,

Let me get this straight:

When you say something in the form of (e.g.):

"When someone says _______ about Microsoft, people will think that person is a fanatic fanboy," that's not your roundabout way of saying "You are a fanatic fanboy."  You are in fact talking about some other people in some other place who said some other things.

If this is correct, I owe you an apology.

Of course there are fanatics, fanboys, conspiracy theorists, and paranoids.

A few other things:  Windows is terrible (in my opinion), with the possible exception of XP, if the user knows how to keep it virus and spyware free.

Microsoft is not the spawn of the devil.  To attribute this idea to anyone in these forums is an exaggeration on your part, though I understand it is to make a point, just as Slashdot uses the Bill Gates as a Borg to make a point.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by mentioning that somebody threatened John Dvorak with death after he said some things about Apple.  Nobody in here has made any threats against anyone.  If your point is that there are fanatics, maniacs, paranoids, etc., in the world, I think we all already knew that.

Finally, if you really think that it's possible to go to a Linux forum and not see some venting against Microsoft, well ... I think that you may have unreasonable expectations.  To paraphrase rbistolfi (and I hope he lets me know if what I write is incorrect) some of us think and feel the way we do because of many of the things which Microsoft has done over the years.  Finally finally, here in the Vector Linux forums I haven't seen much in the way of Windows or Microsoft bashing outside of the Lounge.  Personally, I thought that was one of the things the Lounge was for (to say what one thinks or feels, without being abusive to other members).  Perhaps I was wrong.

If Vec, or any of the Moderators, Admins, Vectorians, Vectorites, Vectafarians, or anyone else thinks I am wrong on that last point, I hope they will let me know.

Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: Colonel Panic on February 01, 2008, 12:42:06 pm
So, Colonel Panic, are you saying that in the UK buying a Mac is too expensive for most people?

But that would mean ... oh God, I can't bear to think it ... I'm going to stick my head in the oven ... wait, I have an electric oven ... maybe I'll pee on the power supply of my Vector Linux PC ... *sob*.


I would't say they're all too expensive, but the point is they're expensive compared with a PC of a similar specification so they don't seem to be a good option by comprison. Also, there aren't anything like as many Mac sellers in the UK as there are PC sellers, so the cjhoice isn't "on the radar" for a non-techie person buying a home computer.

Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: BlueMage on February 01, 2008, 01:38:30 pm
So, Colonel Panic, are you saying that in the UK buying a Mac is too expensive for most people?

But that would mean ... oh God, I can't bear to think it ... I'm going to stick my head in the oven ... wait, I have an electric oven ... maybe I'll pee on the power supply of my Vector Linux PC ... *sob*.


I would't say they're all too expensive, but the point is they're expensive compared with a PC of a similar specification so they don't seem to be a good option by comprison. Also, there aren't anything like as many Mac sellers in the UK as there are PC sellers, so the cjhoice isn't "on the radar" for a non-techie person buying a home computer.

Hahaha, that's EXACTLY who they're targeted at here.  Macs have a presence in most of the so-called high-end consumer goods stores (like Myers and David Jones) where you can expect to pay 50AUD for a shirt you could get in Target for 10AUD.  And as such, Macs generally are ridiculously overpriced compared to a PC of equivalent spec.

Which is not to say I don't use 'em :) They make them available for folks to try, and with internet access, so if I need quick internet access in the city, I know exactly where I can go.

Still, it breaks my heart to see a smooth salesman (or worse, a so-called Mac Genius) convince some poor little blonde girl that everything she can do in Windows, she can do in Mac and better.  Of course, she's never going to do anything more strenuous than browse the intarwebs and maybe type up a few documents for her arts degree, but still, to see an innocent, naive young woman taken advantage of like that really doesn't sit right with me.

Also, I finally saw an Asus Eee PC yesterday in Myers.  499AUD, but still not a bad price!  Going to play with it a bit more before I commit money though.

EDIT:  HAHAHAHAHA, oh man, pardon my quoting.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 02, 2008, 02:03:07 pm
This article (http://www.securecomputing.net.au/news/69328,megad-botnet-stronger-than-storm-promotes-male-sexual-pills.aspx) says that the Mega-D botnet has overtaken the Storm botnet and is running completely from Linux PCs and Macs.

Go male enhancement!
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: no2thesame on February 02, 2008, 06:57:10 pm
I dual boot Vista with VL 5.9 on my laptop - (only the kids use Vista though). My first Microsoft purchase for 20 years! So I'm not completely against Microsoft but... it does keep intruding...

Just 10 minutes from our little local LUG  http://groups.google.com/group/westlakes-linux-learners (http://groups.google.com/group/westlakes-linux-learners)  is a computing club for seniors ('elders' in the US) with several hundred members. One of our LUG members is also a member of the Seniors Club and he suggested to them we give a talk on Linux. Here is the final email from the club secretary (last names removed)

Quote
Dear Joe & Bruce,

The request from Joe ------- and your offer to come to our club to talk about Linux was discussed at our recent committee meeting.

It was decided that while we appreciate your offer, for the time being we must decline.

The reasons are:

    *  Our members are seniors set in their ways.  Many are very new to computers and to introduce them to another operating system would only confuse them.  To illustrate, even now when some are asked what version of Office they have, not knowing the difference between an operating system and an application, they answer Windows XP.
    *  Previous requests to cater for Macintosh users have been refused as we do not have sufficient facilities to do this.
    *  As explained before, we are partners in the Microsoft Unlimited Potential Project and have recently received from them a very generous donation of $26,000 of software.  We therefore feel that as a club we must stay loyal to Microsoft.   

I am sure you both can appreciate our position.

Yours truly,

A    ----------

Westlake’s Seniors Computer Club.
.

To quote BlueMage...
Quote
Still, it breaks my heart to see a smooth salesman (or worse, a so-called Mac Genius) convince some poor little blonde girl that everything she can do in Windows, she can do in Mac and better.  Of course, she's never going to do anything more strenuous than browse the intarwebs and maybe type up a few documents for her arts degree, but still, to see an innocent, naive young woman taken advantage of like that really doesn't sit right with me.

Why doesn't this 'sit right with me'? Is anyone being taken advantage of here? How exactly?

no2
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 02, 2008, 08:02:51 pm
Quote
As explained before, we are partners in the Microsoft Unlimited Potential Project and have recently received from them a very generous donation of $26,000 of software.  We therefore feel that as a club we must stay loyal to Microsoft.
Hehe...$26,000...that's a pretty heavy hammer.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 02, 2008, 08:22:01 pm
Couple of things, no2thesame:

Here in the US, you're either a child, a young person, middle-aged, or a senior citizen, the last sometimes called "seniors," "older people," "the elderly," or "that cranky guy who yells at kids to get off his lawn."

Well, I can't fault Microsoft too much for giving software to seniors.  Sure, it's one of their ways of keeping their market share, but whoever wrote the letter is probably right in saying that the seniors group as a whole wouldn't be too open to change.  People in general aren't open to change, and when new or unfamiliar technology comes along they tend to resist it, especially if it's difficult or confusing.

I have a lot of problems with Microsoft, in fact I hate the company, but I guess I would say the answer you got from the Seniors Club isn't too surprising; I personally don't find it particularly disturbing.

You might want to suggest to your LUG member who's also a member of the Seniors Club that he approach members of the Seniors to see if any of them are interested in Linux.  Older people are as diverse as any group, so I imagine you would get some takers.  If you can't get Mohammed to the mountain, etc.

With regard to what Blue Mage wrote, I have a few comments.  Women and men are at parity in terms of I.Q., and I know quite a few young women who are more computer savvy than the average guy.  The stereotype of the computer nerd is male, but I think things have changed enough to make the stereotype untrue.  So the "poor little girl" being taken advantage of by the smooth salesman ... pretty sexist, probably happens just as much to guys as girls.  We're generally naive when we're young, but everybody has to learn sooner or later that sales people always lie, and will say anything to close a sale.

Having said that, in my experience Mac people can be pretty pushy.  One time I was at the grocery store, wearing my Tux cap, and some guy with a big blue X on his t-shirt came up to me and started talking to me about OS X.  How I could run X on OS X.  How Apple hardware is superior to PC hardware.  How Apple tech support is the best in the world.  Even when I told him that I build my own machines from off the shelf parts, he wouldn't let up.  Finally I told him that I wasn't interested and had to go.  Kind of annoying, but in a way I understand since for so long Mac people took a real beating from Windows people.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: no2thesame on February 02, 2008, 09:53:02 pm
They have deep pockets with lots of heavy hammers by the sound of it, nubcnubdo, but they get loads of loyalty.

You might want to suggest to your LUG member who's also a member of the Seniors Club that he approach members of the Seniors to see if any of them are interested in Linux.  Older people are as diverse as any group, so I imagine you would get some takers.  If you can't get Mohammed to the mountain, etc.

Good thinking! Will have a word. You are right though about older people being resistant to change, when my mother visits, she loves all the games on my Vector machines, but won't let me put it on her Win'98 box that she uses for Patience because 'something might go wrong and you aren't here to fix it.'

Quote
We're generally naive when we're young, but everybody has to learn sooner or later that sales people always lie, and will say anything to close a sale.

They don't always lie... I bought my first new computer for years, last December. It was the cheapest notebook in the shop (Acer Aspire 3515 with 1.7GHz Celeron, 512Mb ram - yeah got it for VL 5.9, which it runs happily) and as I was looking at it the 'salesboy' came along and said "You don't want to buy that computer" , "Why not?" I asked him. The answer was the truth "Because it can barely push the operating system"! Too true... Vista runs very slowly indeed....but he should see it now!

Quote
Having said that, in my experience Mac people can be pretty pushy.  One time I was at the grocery store, wearing my Tux cap, and some guy with a big blue X on his t-shirt came up to me and started talking to me about OS X.  How I could run X on OS X.  How Apple hardware is superior to PC hardware.  How Apple tech

I try to avoid shopping, my daughter has a (now older) Mac notebook. The sales staff were fine there.

Tux cap to the grocery store?? Have you ever had any good things happen as a result of the displaying Tux? I sometimes wear my "Software Freedom Day '07 " shirt in public and the most useful feedback I've had was from my other daughter... "Dad you're such a nerd!"

no2
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: GrannyGeek on February 03, 2008, 12:29:07 am
When you say something in the form of (e.g.):

"When someone says _______ about Microsoft, people will think that person is a fanatic fanboy," that's not your roundabout way of saying "You are a fanatic fanboy."  You are in fact talking about some other people in some other place who said some other things.

Right. I was talking about other people's perceptions of those who engage in vociferous Microsoft bashing in public forums. They have the same reaction to Mac evangelists who engage in the same type of bashing.

Quote
A few other things:  Windows is terrible (in my opinion), with the possible exception of XP, if the user knows how to keep it virus and spyware free.

You're entitled to your opinion. My experience has been the opposite. I've been using Windows since 1991 and have never had any serious problems. I have very few complaints about Windows, and I have some Windows software I'll never stop using. I've used Win 3.0, 3.1, 95 original, 95B, 98SE, W2K, XP, and Vista, so I do have a lot of experience with many versions. I've also never had a virus, spyware, or adware infestation and I don't work very hard at keeping virus free beyond running up-to-date AV in the background all the time, installing Windows critical updates after they've percolated for a few days, and having safe computing habits (I don't do P2P, don't use pirated software, don't visit the seamier parts of the Internet, don't open unexpected attachments, etc.).

Dissatisfaction with Microsoft did not drive me to Linux. Curiosity did. And once here, fun keeps me here. I think Linux is way more fun than Windows. I also like the choice aspect, of which Linux offers much more than Windows.

Quote
I'm not sure what you're trying to say by mentioning that somebody threatened John Dvorak with death after he said some things about Apple.  Nobody in here has made any threats against anyone.

I was using that as an example of how maniacal some people can get. I wasn't implying that anyone here was going that far. It's also not an indictment of any operating system, be it Mac or Linux (or Windows). It's not the fault of an OS if some users get religious about it. For a long time, though, the Mac had semi-official Mac Evangelists, led by Mac employee Guy Kawasaki. That kind of thing tends to attract some unstable people because it makes the OS a "cause." OS/2 had the same problem with Team OS/2, which became obnoxious and drove prospective users away.

Quote
here in the Vector Linux forums I haven't seen much in the way of Windows or Microsoft bashing outside of the Lounge.

I agree.

Quote
Personally, I thought that was one of the things the Lounge was for (to say what one thinks or feels, without being abusive to other members).  Perhaps I was wrong.

That's my understanding of the Lounge, too. Discussions of religion and politics can quickly get out of hand, so I think those are discouraged. Saying bad things about Microsoft is okay, but if I think someone is going over the top, I'll say so.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 03, 2008, 06:32:09 am
Okay, GrannyGeek, I can see what you're saying.  I apologize to you, I can see that you didn't intend to call anyone names.

On the other things, I hope we can agree to disagree (except for the things on which we agree  :D).  I can see that our experiences are different, and I imagine that contributes to our different views of things.  I'm sure it's healthy and helpful also, for people who disagree (at times this can become heated) to discuss their differences.  We may not end up agreeing, but if done properly we at least learn something about other people's points of view.

Thanks for discussing.

no2thesame
:  Okay, sales people don't always lie, but it's usually safer to assume that they are lying. ;D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 03, 2008, 07:41:01 am
no2thesame:

I forgot a couple of things:

When I wear the Tux cap in public, people rarely say anything.  When they do say something, it's usually "Ooh, cute little penguin."  One time a guy asked me what the penguin was for, and completely off the top of my head I said it was for the McMurdo Station Penguins, the American hockey team in Antarctica.  His response:  "Oh, cool!"  Then he asked me who they played against, and I said something like "Usually there's just one game a year against the Russians."

I don't generally talk to people about Linux unless they specifically ask me.  I've installed VL on some computers for people who told me they didn't want to use Windows anymore but didn't feel they could afford a Mac.  Some of them have gotten rid of it, some dual boot, and some have made it their only OS.  Our LUG where I live is really awful.  It's kind of a clique of smelly fat social reject (males) who actively discourage new members by belittling them.  I've thought about starting my own, but at the moment I really don't have the time or the energy.  There's a guy who lives one street over from me who has Debian on all his home machines (even the ones his kids use).  He's a Unix programmer for a chemical company (I think it's Irix that they use).  Sometimes he and I have a beer and talk Linux.

This is the cap:  http://www.thinkgeek.com/apparel/hats-ties/2998/ (http://www.thinkgeek.com/apparel/hats-ties/2998/)

Finally, I have some friends who live in your state (Tweed Heads, NSW).  I realize that's pretty far up the coast from you, but you're closer to them than I am.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: exeterdad on February 03, 2008, 08:15:16 am
Quote
This is the cap:  http://www.thinkgeek.com/apparel/hats-ties/2998/
I'd wear that hat.  My kids actually are so used to me in hats that if mine falls off, or for some reason I don't have one on, they will bring me one.  I don't get it.  It's not that I have a bad haircut or anything?  But our family loves penguins, even before Linux was a part of this house.  I've a feeling the Tux hat would be popular choice.

Oh....  sorry.  Didn't mean to stray. Back to the topic.

I wish MS would stay out of the OLPC.  I can't shake the gut feeling their efforts are merely long term investments.  Not because they have big unselfish hearts, and are getting involved to improve the chances of these children's future.  :-\
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 03, 2008, 08:59:08 am
exeterdad:  Maybe you have evil-looking scary eyes and your kids want them shaded?  ;D

On the OLPC  ... GrannyGeek did say
 
Quote
You can't seriously expect Microsoft to pass up an opportunity to get in on this. They owe it to their stockholders.

I strongly suspect that's their real motive, and that's the problem.  Personally I think that Microsoft needs to be kept out of this, just because they have such a long history of doing whatever they can get away with to extend their markets - and that's not what the OLPC is supposed to be about.  Perhaps they are doing this because they want to help the kids and they think XP Lite would be better than Linux for the OLPC.  Probably at least some people at Microsoft believe that.

Nevertheless, given their past behavior, I think it would be better to err on the side of caution and keep them out of it.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: BlueMage on February 03, 2008, 04:42:47 pm
To quote BlueMage...
Quote
Still, it breaks my heart to see a smooth salesman (or worse, a so-called Mac Genius) convince some poor little blonde girl that everything she can do in Windows, she can do in Mac and better.  Of course, she's never going to do anything more strenuous than browse the intarwebs and maybe type up a few documents for her arts degree, but still, to see an innocent, naive young woman taken advantage of like that really doesn't sit right with me.

Why doesn't this 'sit right with me'? Is anyone being taken advantage of here? How exactly?

no2

The poor girl has been misled!  She has been told she can do so much more with a Mac!  This is clearly not right!  And if Microsoft charges the earth for its products, Apple adds Heaven to the price to top it off.

And Tomh38, I do believe you took my comment the wrong way my friend.  While it's true that plenty of males are downright incompetent when it comes to computers - Windows or otherwise - this particular instance I observed while abusing Myer's generosity with intarwebs was of a young lady - no older than 20 - being talked around by not one, but three seperate Myer staff, dead-set on convincing her that her Mac would never crash, it would never get virii, she could do anything she does on Windows, etc.  While the second may indeed be true (lol market share) the first and third are plainly wrong.  And THAT I take objection to.

Of course, I didn't do or say anything - not my place to save folks from themselves.  But it still made me feel like a little piece inside of me died :(
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on February 03, 2008, 05:11:12 pm
I don't think the superiority of Windows over OS is evident. Honestly, my brother does some audio stuff for a friend who do movies, and we've seen a G3 doing realtime stuff with great stability. But that is just my experience. People, personal experiences are not valid. Every time we have this discussion I hear "my experience..., I never had a pro... We..., etc". I don't have Windows in my house anymore, and I am not working on computers at the factory since a year or so. I am not used to it anymore and I had to do some stuff on my sister's new lappy loaded with Vista. A simple thing like checking my own IP was a pain. The menu is really different, I couldn't find a way to open a shell from it, I navigated through many windows including "Networking" until I remembered [WIN + R], typed cmd.exe and then ipconfig. In my VL box would be a minute. That doesn't prove Linux is better than Windows, that proves I am used to linux, and nothing else.
So if we want to have more than a little flame and put some ideas in the table, we have to take some distance and look wider.
About the salesman, he lives selling, he will never say "Windows is better, check Vista". If the next week he would be working for a shop selling  MS machines, he wouldl say the same with the makes switched.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 03, 2008, 05:18:18 pm
BlueMage

Kid's gotta learn some time, and getting ripped off is one of the best ways to learn that people will lie to get your money.  Yeah, I would agree ... not your place to save people from themselves, unless of course it's something more important (talking someone out of suicide comes to mind).

Maybe this 20 year old young woman learned the important lesson that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.  Or maybe she already knew that, and didn't buy the Mac.

Maybe you already know this and are using virii because it's become sort of a joke on the Internet, but the plural of virus is viruses.  I know that usage forms language, not dictionaries and grammar books (ultimately) but that word ... virii ... makes me sick to my stomach; it's an affront to both English and Latin.

Nothing against you personally for using the word, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Tom
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: BlueMage on February 04, 2008, 03:31:44 am
I shall say that what you have described is indeed the case.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is spouting hateful lies!
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 04, 2008, 04:37:17 am
Blue Mage ... this (http://www.geocities.com/sotto-voce/pancake_bunny.jpg).
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 04, 2008, 09:11:08 am
They might not be the spawn of Satan but they do dodge taxes (http://www.crosscut.com/microsoft/11167/Microsoft's+%24528+million+Washington+tax+break/).

Just like every other big company.  In this case it looks more or less legal, but even if it weren't they have a brazilian lawyers to take care of things.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: GrannyGeek on February 04, 2008, 07:56:44 pm
Okay, GrannyGeek, I can see what you're saying.  I apologize to you, I can see that you didn't intend to call anyone names.

No problem. I should have worded things so they couldn't be misunderstood.

Quote
I can see that our experiences are different, and I imagine that contributes to our different views of things.  I'm sure it's healthy and helpful also, for people who disagree (at times this can become heated) to discuss their differences.  We may not end up agreeing, but if done properly we at least learn something about other people's points of view.

Right. No matter what the topic is, it annoys me when everyone in a discussion expresses the same point of view. Obviously, there have to be other opinions that have validity. Otherwise every intelligent, honest person would agree, and that's not the case.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: MikeCindi on February 05, 2008, 02:55:26 pm
...they have a brazilian   lawyers ...
I suspect that is a reference to the slang combination of billion and zillion (is zillion really proper nomenclature or just slang itself?) vs. a reference to the nationality of the lawyers at Microsoft.  :P
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on February 05, 2008, 03:27:13 pm
LOL, brazilian lawyers must be great. They hypnotize you with samba and then BANG, you just give them your house. Argentinian lawyers are the worst, you can smell the sulfur from miles.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 05, 2008, 06:25:33 pm
There's a movie about a house sold to US couple Tom Hanks and Shelley Long by Brazilian lawyers/realtors/hustlers, called The Money Pit.
the scaffold scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PochL9uL-Y

Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 05, 2008, 07:23:13 pm
nubcnubdo:  That's one of my favorite movies of all time!

mikecindi:  Correct ... I got it from people at Fark.com (a site I sometimes visit but don't really recommend) where "a brazilian" is goofy slang for any really large number, as opposed to "a Brazilian," which would, I suppose, be a person.

rbistolfi
:  I get the joke about about the Brazilian lawyers and the samba, but I think there's a joke about the Argentinian lawyers and sulfur which I don't understand.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on February 05, 2008, 09:20:42 pm
A tradition says Astharot, Lucifer, Azmodel, Beelzebub, Mephistopheles, Satan, well... the Devil smell like sulfur (or it is sulphur?, bah, S in that chemistry thing).
Damn I didn't go so far with the devil's name, I used to know lot of them.
I take the chance to salute Caim, my Brazilian friend. Damn, pentacampeao my a**, you will see!! ;D
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: tomh38 on February 06, 2008, 05:16:47 am
Thanks, rbistolfi, I should have understood the reference to sulfur and Hell.  I think that all European-derived cultures have the same association between the smell of sulfur and the Devil.

What I was imagining was sulfur dioxide or hydrogen sulfide or whichever one of those sulfur compounds that causes the bad smell of, um, intestinal gas.

I don't know why I would associate this with lawyers.
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: sledgehammer on February 06, 2008, 09:49:24 pm
Well, now that lawyers are mentioned, I have a comment.

The problem is not Microsoft, the problem is that government has not broken up Microsoft into separate companies, one owning the highway, another the cars that run on the highway. Until it does, the cars made by Microsoft will run well on the highway and cars made by others won't.   

Monopoly is and always has been the cancer of capitalism.  Without government action to cut out that cancer, being Microsoft in the current context, or weaken it, monopoly results.  We all know that monopolists have absolute power, or effectively so, and that absolute power corrupts.  So Microsoft continues to do whatever it can to destroy its rivals, and will continue to do so until (and unless) government stops it, until, that is, we get an administration with the courage to enforce our anti-trust laws.  Those who think Microsoft, or any company, will stifle itself, don't understand capitalism.  Under Clinton, the government was doing its duty....it was breaking up Microsoft.  Then Bush came along and stopped all that.  Bush isn't smart enough to understand that for capitalism to flourish, the biggest (and sometimes the best) have to go under the knife.

As an aside, Bush's failure to comprehend that it is competition that brings the benefits of capitalism to the people also caused him to empty the federal treasury to his friends via no-bid contracts, and Bush's friends are the only ones who, in today's economy, have any cash.  Thankfully, term limits will likely solve many of these problems, probably explaining Microsoft's attempt to gobble up Yahoo now, before the election.

John
Title: Re: Historical Inevitability: M$ set to horn in on OLPC with XP Lite
Post by: rbistolfi on February 06, 2008, 10:53:01 pm
Surely is a task of the government to put limits in the free enterprise activity to protect the community. The debate is international and it is not limited at the US government. In the last 20 years we assisted to a "liberalization" of the economies of the world. Now that process is under question,  since many countries are having several problems and the underpowered State is perhaps the origin of many of them. The role of the FMI and similar organizations which promoted free enterprise around the globe are now in a heavy crisis. The neo-liberal tendency shows it own limitation, because more close to its realization, the social problems it generates produces a heavy impact on the economy, the productive system and the stability in a long term. We suffered this kind of problems at s. America the last 10 years. The capitalism without social justice is just impossible, and is all the way dangerous for the Freedom it pretends to promote. I am not in favor of the super giant State machinery, but I do believe in the reason -this is the law- putting limits over the social forces of the economy and its actors.
In this scenario, I think Open Source is not only a way of develop and distribute software, it is also an example of a new point of view about property, about the role of the community and an alternative between the Big Bureaucratic Organization and the pure individualism of free enterprise. Community (common property) and Freedom are finally interacting.