VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: Joe1962 on December 14, 2007, 02:01:37 pm

Title: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Joe1962 on December 14, 2007, 02:01:37 pm
VL has become very international as far as users and developers go, so I have this idea to add a subforum for other-languages threads, with sub-subforums for any language for which we have more than 1 user. The sub-subforums would be created by asking for them in a post directly on the containing subforum. What do you all think?


EDIT: Please note that I am running this poll as a VL developer and user, not as a Forum admin.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: newt on December 14, 2007, 02:12:04 pm
Sounds messy, but probably worth a shot ;D
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Joe1962 on December 14, 2007, 02:16:41 pm
Heh, I'd forgotten the real name, they are called "child boards" and I set one up as a test in "The Dumpster" a long time ago.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: tomh38 on December 14, 2007, 02:17:30 pm
Sounds like a good idea.  If you get any time-traveling users who only speak Latin or ancient Greek, I can help.  Oh, and Italian.  My Italian is pretty good still.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Joe1962 on December 14, 2007, 02:25:25 pm
Don't forget to vote... ;)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: easuter on December 14, 2007, 02:26:19 pm
Sounds like a good idea, only that it might be hard to give the same kind of help when those who know the answer don't understand the language in which the question is written...
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: exeterdad on December 14, 2007, 02:27:05 pm
Sounds like it would be useful enough. I wouldn't be able to help at all, but I'm sure many would appreciate it.

I belong to a php related board that is English and German.  Often through searching the boards you come acrossed what "might" be the solution you are looking for, but in another language.  Also, often people will cross link to threads in a different language trying to be helpful. It's actually very frustrating.

But it might make VL more accessible to others.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: kidd on December 14, 2007, 02:28:52 pm
Being a small community, I don't think It'd be a good idea, because knowledge will be spreaded among 3-5 languages, and that makes more difficult to reuse knowledge already posted.

For example, as I understand english more or less, I'll keep posting in english, as  more feedback is likely to come...

People only speaking one (non-english) language can post in their language, and someone is likely to translate/answer. It's been happening for some time already.

Just my 2c.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Joe1962 on December 14, 2007, 02:32:51 pm
...it might be hard to give the same kind of help when those who know the answer don't understand the language in which the question is written...
That's a given (or selbstverständlich, a very useful word) and if needed, a disclaimer post can be put up. But if only one of them understands English, they can act as a link to the info. I can only see our international audience growing...


EDIT: I also didn't mean it exclusively for info, it would be a place for people to "lounge about" in their own language without translations needed. I believe it would make them feel more at home.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: M0E-lnx on December 14, 2007, 02:39:12 pm
I vote yes... I think it'd be good. Some newcomers are more confortable if they can post in they native language. Makes sense.. Some of us who speak more than one language could better assist users that dont speak english.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: rbistolfi on December 14, 2007, 02:45:38 pm
Yes, but I have to say, if you can post in English you could get better answers, just because you will have more readers. I would include this warning in the sub-forum.
I think could be good for those who can't speak English and don't give the shot in their own language for some reason. Is true the community is very international.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Witek Mozga on December 14, 2007, 04:28:49 pm
VL has become very international as far as users and developers go, so I have this idea to add a subforum for other-languages threads

I`m other-language speaker myself but I think that`s a bad idea. Vector forum is rather small one and there is no need to still divide (community and knowledge). Besides, English is 'lingua franca' of modern world and being forced to use it is useful for non-native speakers like me.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: GrannyGeek on December 14, 2007, 06:14:08 pm
I'm on the Scribus e-mail list, which is very international. From time to time, the question of having e-mail lists for languages other than English comes up. The dominant opinion is that this is a bad idea for a few major reasons:

*  It would make it less likely that people would get the information they need because fewer people would see questions and comments posted to the list.

*  This would mean someone who could answer a question may not see it because he or she concentrates on the list in their language.

*  It would mean more time spent by those who are competent in more than one language if they chose to subscribe to more than one Scribus list.

*  It fragments the user community by making it a bit too easy to hang with those, and only those, who share a language.

If course, people who don't understand English or have difficulty reading or writing English are at a large disadvantage and may even feel embarrassed. So on the Scribus list, people who have difficulty with English are encouraged to post in their native language or another language with which they are comfortable. There is a very big chance that someone on the list can reply to the questions or comments. Often someone will translate the non-English message so the rest of us can have a crack at it. This seems to work pretty well, as these non-English messages do get answered in the language of the poster.

I think this could work well on these Vector forums, too. If it could be prominently made clear that posts need not be in English and that it's totally acceptable to post in languages other than English and if forum members who speak other languages would step up to the plate to translate, people who have difficulty with English wouldn't have to worry about struggling to express themselves in English.

We have a lot of people here who understand French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Russian, and other languages. Translating to and from other languages would be a valuable contribution to the growth of VectorLinux. And certainly, the Lounge should be open to conversations in languages other than English.

So often people whose English is not great apologize for their "bad English." I always feel like saying "hey, you do a lot better writing English than I do at writing French or German, which I did study back in the middle of the last century." If anyone should apologize, it's those of us who are monolingual. In fact, one of my retirement projects is to brush up on French, which I could read fluently but not speak well almost 50 years ago, just so I could read and maybe reply to some of the posts I come across in forums and e-mail lists. And then do the same with German. And if I live long enough :) , tackle Spanish and Italian.

Oh--back to Scribus. Much of the Wiki is available in languages other than English and volunteer translators for more languages are warmly welcomed.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: MikeCindi on December 14, 2007, 06:25:44 pm
I really like the idea of making the interaction more comfortable anyone that English is not their first language but I must agree with what several have pointed out...useful information get diluted or possibly never posted. I'm not sure what the best answer is but what happens now seems to work fairly well. (I know that's easy for me to say as English is my first language. My Xhosa, Africaans, French, Taki-Taki, Dutch (Suriname flavor), and Spanish are long gone.) I wouldn't want anyone left out of this great forum and distro...
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: exeterdad on December 14, 2007, 07:00:58 pm
I do have to say that the folks that don't have English as their first language, do a great job on this board.  Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.  ;)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 14, 2007, 07:28:58 pm
...it might be hard to give the same kind of help when those who know the answer don't understand the language in which the question is written...
That's a given (or selbstverständlich, a very useful word)

'Självklar' is much shorter. :)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: t'web on December 14, 2007, 10:09:37 pm
Of course I've voted 'YES'...Thumbs up !.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Gerinald on December 15, 2007, 12:07:00 am
Bonjour,
J'ai aussi voté, bien sur pour le français.

Ouvrir un forum en mode international ne peut que vous apporter que du soutien supplémentaire, et une meilleur connaissance de Vector, à un plus large public.

Merci

@micalement
@+ Gerinald
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 15, 2007, 01:02:17 am
Trevligt att ses igen!

C'est bien de te revoir!

...good to see you again...  :)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: saulgoode on December 15, 2007, 01:09:26 am
As for myself, I voted "no" but it is a very mild "no". I would hope that everyone feels welcome in the forum and personally do not mind discussions taking place that are not in English. It is appreciated when one of the participants provides a translation of the discussion, but understood that this is an additional burden.

My personal limitations with non-English languages are that I am more familiar with listening to them than reading them (especially Dutch) and that I can parse another's writing better than I can compose it myself. I am generally able to follow a non-English discussion but not comfortable with joining in. (I also have no comprehension of the Nordic languages.)

In retrospect, I should not have voted "no". The decision is better made by forum administrators and I trust their judgment. (EDIT: I see that I am able to remove my vote; this I have done.)

Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 15, 2007, 01:36:23 am
My personal limitations with non-English languages are that I am more familiar with listening to them than reading them (especially Dutch) and that I can parse another's writing better than I can compose it myself. I am generally able to follow a non-English discussion but not comfortable with joining in. (I also have no comprehension of the Nordic languages.)

Hmm, jag har funnit att det är hur lätt som helst att förstå dessa språk...

 ;D
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Xeon on December 15, 2007, 02:24:24 am
Although I am one of the guys that had the idea to make a dutch section, I must say suse-refugee's argument in that topic has convinced me that a non-english section is not what we want. I don't really think this will really work out. As said before, why split the community again? I think that if some people have questions and really can't write them in English, they will write them in their own language anyhow, hoping that someone can understand them and make clear to the rest of the community what they want. So far it has worked, and we were able to help people in a lot of languages.

My guess is that our dutch section would have been some sort of extended dutch lounge anyway.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Freeman on December 15, 2007, 03:53:03 am
I think the community is to small for this nobel idea. We can't even grant the same knowledge and support to non-english speakers, because not every developper understands Dutch, French, ...
Just my 50 Cent :)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 15, 2007, 04:07:20 am
Just my 50 Cent :)

50 Cent, yo! Represeeeeeeent!!!

(http://mog.com/pictures/wikipedia/192481/The_Massacre.JPG)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: The Headacher on December 15, 2007, 04:43:11 am
Quote
My guess is that our dutch section would have been some sort of extended dutch lounge anyway.
With topics like clogs, windmills, tulips, pot and complaining about the weather!

Seriously though, I like this English forum thing, it helps me keep my English level up. Most people who speak Dutch will also know English, so no need for a Dutch subforum. Can't speak for other languages though.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 15, 2007, 04:48:17 am
Quote
My guess is that our dutch section would have been some sort of extended dutch lounge anyway.
With topics like clogs, windmills, tulips, pot and complaining about the weather!

The Swedish sub-forum would consist of exactly one wannabe Swede. How sad.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Freston on December 15, 2007, 07:01:42 am
I'm not to afraid of splitting the community in the sense that people discuss in the above. As I've said in the thread about a Dutch subforum, I'll give a translation here ;) for technical questions or any news I'd like to share, I would put it in English to get a broader audience.

But also, the community may be to small to really justify a different language subforum. I'm afraid it would bleed to death by lack of posting. On the other hand, my first reaction was that it could be fun. It's easier to quickly express something in Dutch, although I do tend to sound like a manager :D

Anyway, I'm not against it. Having Dutch/French/German subfora may even draw in a different crowd... who knows?

Quote from: The Headacher
With topics like clogs, windmills, tulips, pot and complaining about the weather!
Bakkie doen? Gezellie!  ;D
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Gerinald on December 15, 2007, 07:51:56 am
Trevligt att ses igen!

C'est bien de te revoir!

...good to see you again...  :)

Merci,
Mais je me demande si le sub-forum verra un jour une place ici.

En vous traduisant, j'ai vraiment l'impression de lire les mêmes idioties que chez nos politiciens du Nord.
Je dit bien politiciens, et non populations, j'insiste.

De par ailleurs, je me demande parfois si on vit sur la même planète.

Cela m'attriste beaucoup de voir ce genre de mentalité :  ""Moi je défend ma langue, et je veut que l'on parle MA langue"".

Pour petit rappel, nous sommes tous des êtres humains, fait de chair et de sang, et seul nos langues nous séparent.

Si déjà le fait de rester fermer comme une huître, vous semblent le meilleur argument, alors, que penser du reste.

Bien @micalement
@+ Gerinald
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Megamieuwsel on December 15, 2007, 08:49:37 am
A very definitive NO from me.
When dealing with being on the web, I'd like to quote the immortal words of Bruce Dickinson(Iron Maiden):

"SPEAK ENGLISH OR DIE!"

...for all the GOOD reasons, posted before.

If there ever would've been even a *remotely* half-decent reason to implement them, I'd have done so when I first made the layout of this board.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: nightflier on December 15, 2007, 04:01:10 pm
With somewhat less assertive words than SuSE-Refugee, I join the no-crowd.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: rbistolfi on December 15, 2007, 05:01:15 pm
This is fun, is the closest poll ever. A point for the sub-forum defenders, nobody is traslating Gerinald's posts  ::)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: newt on December 15, 2007, 05:22:09 pm
ya know, my knee-jerk reaction was to vote "no" but then I thought, if it somehow helps international, non-english speaking members then I'd say it's worth it.  Just like Cait wants 64bits and better internationalization; just like metvas wants VL-provided paid product support; maybe this is worth a shot as well.  If we open our arms to more users and it "pans out" then perhaps we will have a bigger userbase on which to develope VL; more users to beta test releases; more users to package; more users with more experience.  The best part is that I don't have to admin or moderate the board or forums, and I don't have to answer questions I don't understand  ;D.  I certainly think it's worth a venture to see if it's something that's been missing.  The easy test would be to create the forums and see how much they get used.  I'm guessing that they'll be used VERY little, but it's only a guess and I've guessed wrong many times before.  I'll be fine either way though.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: rbistolfi on December 15, 2007, 05:57:43 pm
well, vl is a friendly community and I think everybody feels comfortable in it. This is a minor question for me. Is not really important. Could be enough if everybody knows he/she can post in his/her own language if necessary. And if the sub-forum becomes reality, we have to make clear is much better if the user post in English.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: JohnB316 on December 15, 2007, 07:00:36 pm
To add my $0.02 as one of the forum admins, I don't at all mind posts in non-English languages, just so long as somebody who speaks that non-English language can provide some sort of translation of the message. It would be a shame for people not to get help using a great distro just because they don't know English well enough to post a question.

FWIW,
John
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Joe1962 on December 15, 2007, 07:48:01 pm
To add my $0.02 as one of the forum admins, I don't at all mind posts in non-English languages, just so long as somebody who speaks that non-English language can provide some sort of translation of the message.
My reasoning for this poll is that this is not happening even remotely close to 100% lately.

It would be a shame for people not to get help using a great distro just because they don't know English well enough to post a question.
Indeed, so I figured they'd ask more easily if they didn't have to abide by the translation rule. Let's face it, more than one non-English user has asked about the existence (or not) of VL forums in their native language lately. I know for a fact that a lot of VL users (or prospective users) in my own country have asked for this in the national LUG mailing list. My current work load does not allow me to answer their problems like I used to.

Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 15, 2007, 09:25:31 pm
This is fun, is the closest poll ever. A point for the sub-forum defenders, nobody is traslating Gerinald's posts  ::)

I'd do it if I knew French. :)
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Gerinald on December 15, 2007, 11:06:04 pm
Bonjour,

J'avoue ne pas comprendre vos réticences, beaucoup de forum anglophones ont ouvert leurs portes à des sub-forum internationales.

Je cite Sabayon, PcLinuxOs, et encore bien d'autres.

Vous refermez sur vous mêmes ne vous apportera rien, vous ouvrir au monde peut vous apporter beaucoup.

Mais ce n'est pas grave, je n'utiliserez plus Vector à l'avenir, puisque l'aide et quasi refusé parce que on ne parle pas anglais.

C'est bien dommage, et pense à tout ceux qui voudront dans l'avenir utiliser cette distro et qui vont lire les pensées de chacun sur ce post.

Pour moi, cela me fait penser à certain souci communautaires que je connait dans mon pays, et cela me fait peur.

BAV
Gerinald
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: uelsk8s on December 16, 2007, 12:29:05 am

Bonjour,

J'avoue ne pas comprendre vos réticences, beaucoup de forum anglophones ont ouvert leurs portes à des sub-forum internationales.

I acknowledge not to include/understand your reserves, much forum english-speaking opened their doors with sub-forum international.

Je cite Sabayon, PcLinuxOs, et encore bien d'autres.

I quote Sabayon, PcLinuxOs, and still well of others.

Vous refermez sur vous mêmes ne vous apportera rien, vous ouvrir au monde peut vous apporter beaucoup.

Mais ce n'est pas grave, je n'utiliserez plus Vector à l'avenir, puisque l'aide et quasi refusé parce que on ne parle pas anglais.

You close again on you same will not bring anything to you, to open in the world can bring to you much.

C'est bien dommage, et pense à tout ceux qui voudront dans l'avenir utiliser cette distro et qui vont lire les pensées de chacun sur ce post.

It is a pity well, and thinks of all those which will want in the future to use this distro and which will read the thoughts of each one on this post.

Pour moi, cela me fait penser à certain souci communautaires que je connait dans mon pays, et cela me fait peur.

For me, that makes me think of certain concern Community which I connait in my country, and that frightens me.

BAV
Gerinald
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 16, 2007, 12:46:24 am
Pour moi, cela me fait penser à certain souci communautaires que je connait dans mon pays, et cela me fait peur.

I hope you're not talking about about Vlaams Belang. :'(
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Gerinald on December 16, 2007, 12:54:08 am
Pour moi, cela me fait penser à certain souci communautaires que je connait dans mon pays, et cela me fait peur.

I hope you're not talking about about Vlaams Belang. :'(

Bonjour,
La nature de certain post m'y font un petit peu penser, oui

Linux et Libre, .... Libre de pensée, Libre d'ouverture d'esprit, Libre de tout, et ici, je voit une fermeture de cette Liberté.

Franchement, ne croyez -vous pas qu'ils y a assez de connerie dans le monde pour encore entacher la communauté avec ça ?

Mais ne t'inquiète pas hanumizzle, dans ma partie francophone, nous sommes beaucoup à bien penser à cette Liberté ;)

Je tiens quand même à remercier uelsk8s pour avoir fait la traduction ;)

BAV
@micalement
@+ Gerinald
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 16, 2007, 01:04:41 am
Mais ne t'inquiète pas hanumizzle, dans ma partie francophone, nous sommes beaucoup à bien penser à cette Liberté ;)

Thanks.  :) I'm not very good with French at all. The only foreign language I know well is Swedish. I would translate posts that you wrote, but I can't.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: uelsk8s on December 16, 2007, 01:10:32 am
Gerinald,
You are welcome for my feeble attempt at translation. I understand your point now even less than when it was in french im afraid.
Also the more you post in french the more I hope we never have a french subforum other-languages sub-forums  :(


Uelsk8s
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: The Headacher on December 16, 2007, 01:23:28 am
I acknowledge not to include/understand your reserves, much forum english-speaking opened their doors with sub-forum international.

I quote Sabayon, PcLinuxOs, and still well of others.

You close again on you same will not bring anything to you, to open in the world can bring to you much.

It is a pity well, and thinks of all those which will want in the future to use this distro and which will read the thoughts of each one on this post.

For me, that makes me think of certain concern Community which I connait in my country, and that frightens me.
All your base are belong to us!! Seriously, this shows just how crappy translations from e.g. babelfish usually are. It gets even worse if you translate technical text. Also, I seem to be missing the part where he says he won't be using VL any more, but my French is too poor to translate properly.

Bottom line? If we're going to have people translate posts from other languages than English they'd better know the language they're translating. If not it's going to be hard to understand the problem, and even harder to fix it.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: t'web on December 16, 2007, 01:47:20 am
@Gerinald
Moi je sais me debrouiller en Francais  (comprendre et parler), mais ecriver ca c'est une autre chose...je fait beaucoup de fautes.C'est le meme chose en Anglais...je comprendre tout,je parle aussi, mais ecrivez,ca c'est pas facile pour moi.

I can talk and understand almost everything in English, but writing that is quit an other more difficult matter for me.And that is the same for my French.I work everyday together with French colleague...i can talk and understand French ass well, but writing faultless...that's an other question.Maybe you must take this opportunity to improved your English...such as I do.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: nightflier on December 16, 2007, 05:58:19 am
Talk about Babel!

In the end it comes down to manpower and resources. I suspect that separate sub-forums for each language won't make the cut, but that the occasional sprinkling of French, Spanish, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Russian, Portuguese, German, Flemish, Gaelic, Italian, Swahili, Esperanto, Chinese, Papiamento, Japanese, Korean, Afrikaans and others will continue to spice up the regular forum.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: ltjmax on December 16, 2007, 08:56:32 am
Maybe we should nominate someone responsible of each language... I mean, something like a moderator for the french speaking community, a moderator for the italian speaking community, etc... Those people could then be in charge to translate posts in their language. Like this, someone could post in french, the moderator translate it in english and then everyone can answer... At the end, the moderator just translate everything in french to be sure that the first guy who asked a question get his answer....

I'm not sure if I made myself clear... I'm french too, from Quebec and my english is far from perfect... but if at least something like this was done, it would surely open VectorLinux to a more larger community... just my 2 cents!
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: bigpaws on December 16, 2007, 10:24:50 am
Quote
just like metvas wants VL-provided paid product support

That project is already done. The support site is in operation.

https://vector.ecosq.com/ic (https://vector.ecosq.com/ic)

Feel free to browse around.

I voted No.

Granny Geek could not have stated it any better. When a non english
request is posted I Google the request and attempt answers. As long
as it is understood that translation is not great, I try the best that I am
able. Many others have done the same.

No one here has ever made a negative comment about other languages.
Which IMO is the way it should be. This forum has a community of users
that do not place political, geological, personal or religious preferences ahead
of helping someone else. Some interesting thoughts have been posted and ALL
of the respondents acted with prudence and respect. Which why this forum is
incredible.

Bigpaws
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Megamieuwsel on December 16, 2007, 11:53:02 am
Maybe we should nominate someone responsible of each language... I mean, something like a moderator for the french speaking community, a moderator for the italian speaking community, etc... Those people could then be in charge to translate posts in their language. Like this, someone could post in french, the moderator translate it in english and then everyone can answer... At the end, the moderator just translate everything in french to be sure that the first guy who asked a question get his answer....

You volunteering?...
Any idea of the amount of work that would load upon the moderators' shoulders?
It's not like they're being paid, y'know...
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: turquoise on December 16, 2007, 02:20:01 pm
I have to say that I agree with ltjmax's idea. It's one thing to have separate sub-forums, but as some have pointed out, it can lead to some lowering of the quality of the help. However, when the moderator of such sub-sections is able to speak English, it can be very easy to avoid. The first thing  is that if an answer exists elsewhere, then the moderator can translate it for the user who doesn't understand English. The reverse can also be true, if an English-speaking user see a potential solution in another language but doesn't understand the language, then he can ask for someone to explain it to him.

Quote
You volunteering?...
Any idea of the amount of work that would load upon the moderators' shoulders?
It's not like they're being paid, y'know...

I consider myself a bit too green with the use of Vector at the moment, but otherwise, I probably would. I have done so elsewhere, because I believe that getting help in our own language does help a whole lot so yes, I know how much of a workload this is. What i have also found out while doing it, is that the workload is heavy at first but after a while, it becomes easier because as more people start to contribute in a language-specific sub-forum, the number of users speaking both the language in question and English tends to increase, thus reducing the amount of time the moderator has to spend on translating things.

So my answer is yes to other languages, as long as the people in charge are able to speak the main language in use in these forums to make sure that as little information as possible is lost in the process.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: bigpaws on December 16, 2007, 02:58:42 pm
Sometimes it appears that the community
loses sight of real numbers and resources.

There are 2249 members.

971 or 43% have not made a post
910 or 40% have up to 2 posts
310 or 14% were not found

50 or .02% have more than 100 posts which
are the majority that provide support.

Dividing resources should be considered for
every thought of expanding.

Bigpaws
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: easuter on December 16, 2007, 03:04:23 pm
I agree that if this goes foreward, there should only be a language board if there is a moderator that can speak that language. Otherwise trash-talking can break out and nobody else will even know.

About the translating: count me out. After a long day I come home to my PC and there is already a huge amount of posts and new topics opened, some of which I don't have time to follow fully. Now imagine having to translate a pile of posts from a thread that has had a lot of activity, it would be unmanageable. Unless there is someone who wants to assume a translator role in the forum (like Suse-Refugee has suggested). Otherwise its just not sustainable.

Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: turquoise on December 16, 2007, 03:49:08 pm
Of course it shouldn't become an additionnal load for those who already contribute heavily. This is what I mean about having the potential moderators speaking English and the language of the part they would be moderating. Also, the translation part doesn't have to be for *everything* that is posted. That would be asking for too much, for anyone. Experience taught me it is better done as on-demand basis. It also taught me that going back and forth between different languages has made me better at understanding the problems users experience and that has made me better in helping others.

If it comes to that, I have no problem with pointing out potential solutions and explaining to others what is being said in a thread. I already do it elsewhere, and not only in the forum where I do moderation work in French. I participate in other French forums, and explaining and translating things to help others is often part of the global helping effort in a situation like that. My problem in doing so in the present case is that I have been using Vector for barely a week, and in alternance with FreeBSD, so mot much experience in the field yet. My experience with Slackware-based and Slackware-like distros is also very limited, which makes me kind of lost at the moment. Time will help with that but until then, the help I can offer is very limited because I'm still in the process of figuring out some things for myself.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Freston on December 16, 2007, 06:22:45 pm
If  an 'other languages forum' means that posts need to be translated into English, I change my vote to no.

Vector is a great distro, and this is a great forum. But you can ask to much of it's members. IMHO what you need as prerequisites for a non-English sub-forum is 1) a healthy group of members who are at least half proficient in the intended language, and 2) someone willing to moderate. And also 3) the sub-forum should add to the forum, not replace any (parts) of it.

That way it'll be easy on the existing participating members, because 1) it's moderated, 2) it's vitality is result of enthusiasm about the existence of the sub-forum; no posts = no enthousiasm  ; kill dead forum. And 3) the main parts of the forum remain in English.

Now I already told ya I can sound like a manager ;D But I'll be quick to give an example, which will be clearer than what I wrote above. I have a Dutch article about \Dutch Governmental 'comply or explain'policy on FOSS (pdf) (http://www.ososs.nl/files/Presentatie%20OSSOSS%20op%20Typo3%20overleg.pdf) in relation to the mandatory Open File Formats in data storage and archiving.

Now if I want to discuss this in relation to a growing local market due to this policy, I can do two things. I can put :(Dutch): before the thread title, or I can put it in the Dutch section. That is neither here nor there though, I wouldn't be posting about that... just couldn't think of another example ;)

To tell you the truth, I don't know if it's feasible to maintain such a forum... Can I change my vote to 'I dont know'?
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 16, 2007, 08:05:13 pm
Dividing resources should be considered for
every thought of expanding.

In light of everything else that has been said, I revoke my vote. I don't think anyone will put a ban on non-English messages at any rate.

I (try to :)) communicate with ghartl in German and on the odd chance there is a Swede here whose English is so bad that he/she can't communicate effectively, I will be ready for that as well. :)

nightflier, LOL @ Papiamentu ... don't forget Windish!!
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: M0E-lnx on December 17, 2007, 08:14:19 am

"SPEAK ENGLISH OR DIE!"

I have to disagree with that line of thought. I like to think that there are smart individuals all over the world who speak many different languages, and are sick and tired of their (translated version of) Wind OS. I feel that would = limiting VL's oportunity to grow.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Joe1962 on December 17, 2007, 09:05:26 am
If  an 'other languages forum' means that posts need to be translated into English, I change my vote to no.
Actually, it was the other way around. They meant that a solution in the English part of the forum could be translated for a non-English reading member.
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Megamieuwsel on December 17, 2007, 09:54:35 am
I have to disagree with that line of thought. I like to think that there are smart individuals all over the world who speak many different languages, and are sick and tired of their (translated version of) Wind OS. I feel that would = limiting VL's oportunity to grow.


IT => ENGLISH.
period.
See how one fares with understanding the configuration-scripts in Linux without having at least a basic grasp of english.
Like it or not; English is the Lingua Franca of IT and the Internet.(and trade , for a good part of the world..)
If you're not willing to learn such an insanely easy language, what are you willing to learn?...

Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Gerinald on December 17, 2007, 11:42:18 am
Bonjour Suse Refugee,

Je me demande bien qui tu peut être pour parler ainsi ???

Quote
If you're not willing to learn such an insanely easy language, what are you willing to learn?...
Hormis certain extrémiste qui parle ainsi, je ne voit pas d'autres terme te concernant.

Depuis le début de ce post, tu prêche pour rester anglophone.

Eh bien, pas de souci, reste comme tu et, fermé et obtus comme tu et, ça doit pas être triste autour de toi.

C'est avec des gens comme toi que rien n'avance.

Je vous signale quand même que vous n'êtes pas tout seul sur cette planète, et que il existe différentes langues, ainsi que des gens qui n'ont pas le temps ou la possibilité d'apprendre d'autres langues.

Mais bon, apparement, chez certain, il n'y a que l'anglais qui existe sur terre.

Franchement, je trouve cela très triste et déplorable.

@+ Gerinald
Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: Megamieuwsel on December 17, 2007, 12:10:26 pm
Gloves are off.

On the contrary;
Since (as I pointed out) English is the defacto standard in IT, refusing to follow the widely accepted standards is more harmfull to the general effort.
What you, and the others who want these Language-sub-forums are actually trying to accomplish is a fragmentation of knowledge.
Very much like the "Babylonian Language Confusion", as described in the bible.(Never thought big 'ole atheist me would ever refer to that book....)
Innovation is sped up by easy communication, which demands a common language.
As it is now in IT and on the majority of the Internet, that common language is English.
Why are you trying to break what doesn't need fixing?

Furthermore are you mistaken in me being an Anglophone: I'm Dutch and hence English is a second language to me(and German third..)
With the help of a dictionary I can decipher French, which normally doesn't even give a "blip" on my radar since it's neither an important language in my line of work(Mechanical engineering), nor for my hobbies (IT, amongst others.).

What I find deplorable is people who, out of cheer chauvinism, refuse to speak one single word across their own border(and even within in some cases...) and act all like the world owes them their own "special little snowflake"-treatment.


Title: Re: Should we have an other-languages sub-forum?
Post by: easuter on December 17, 2007, 01:47:01 pm
This is thread is going south fast, so its closed  >:(