VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: youngtomedison on December 21, 2007, 03:46:25 am

Title: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: youngtomedison on December 21, 2007, 03:46:25 am
I've got something to say. I know I'm going to catch a lot of heat for it. OK, I';m going to say it anyway.

Linux sucks.

OK, why does Linux suck?

It sucks because it's full of bugs.

Well, OK, isn't Microsoft Windows full of bugs too?

It sure is. Hell, MS Windows IS a bug! If you upgrade to a new version as soon as it comes out, you're paying to be Bill Gates' beta tester!

Linux doesn't have the glaring security and functionality issues that Windows does. It merely has surprises, issues that crop up if you try to do anything but surf the web, process words, or work with pictures. Those things it does quite well, and you cannot beat the price.

But let's say you're an audiophile like me and you want to do some recording. Nothing fancy, just a simple cassette-to-hard-drive transfer. You can't. I describe the problem here:

http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4876.15

Copying a CD such that all the artist and title information gets filled in automatically was a walk in the park under Debian and even under Windows. Not under Vector:

http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5027.0

I'm sick of all these surprise obstacles to what ought to be simple, routine tasks. If they can work OK under a junk OS like Windows 98SE, why can't they just work under Vector Linux?

Bugs, bugs, bugs.

Every distro that I've tried always had something wrong with it, apps that don't quite work right or which don't quite synch up with the rest of the OS.

Perhaps I made a mistake in thinking Linux was an alternative to the all-consuming blob of Windows Vista.

Looks to me like I'll just have to empty my bank account, miss a whole lot of meals, and fork over tribute to Steve Jobs, for a Mac. The hardware and software are a bigger rip-off than Microsoft, but what's the alternative? I'm sick of being frustrated.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 21, 2007, 03:59:35 am
Nåväl, I'm going to refrain from saying something immature because karma will bite me in the ass otherwise.

Linux, the kernel, isn't altogether too buggy. In fact it's quite stable. OK, maybe that's kind of anal retentive. But it's really apps and some drivers that have bugs. You must understand that we (the Linux community as a whole) don't have access to all the specs for hardware and media formats that others do, so it's sometimes necessary to reverse engineer them. The feats so achieved are pretty remarkable, I think.

Maybe the grass simply looks greener on the other side. Macs aren't bad, but even our Mac (OS X) workstations at school bug out and behave strangely. I stay with Linux, specifically Vector, because it offers me a community experience you can't get with most other operating systems. Case in point: on most other computer fora, you would probably get a response like "STFU n00b" or perhaps plain indifference. That didn't happen here.

JMO
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: hata_ph on December 21, 2007, 04:53:35 am

Copying a CD such that all the artist and title information gets filled in automatically was a walk in the park under Debian and even under Windows. Not under Vector:

http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5027.0


If Debian and Windows work for you why don't you continue to use it?
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: bigpaws on December 21, 2007, 05:23:38 am
Quote
I'm sick of being frustrated.

I certainly agree with that. Please look at the
whole problem before just jumping. My first
experiences with Linux were down right
frustrating, my enlightenment came when I realized
the learning curve for Windows.

It is possible that you are using the wrong tool for the
job. Your reports about Audacity is usually one of two
problems the way the program was compiled or a
different version. The different version should not
really be the case but I have seen it. Have you done
any research for audio editing? I am not an audiophile
so the tools presented do not mean much. Perhaps this
will guide the way for a solution.

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7274 (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7274)

The other post the you referred to I did post an answer.

Your thoughts (rant) is certainly understandable. If that is
all this is then rant away most of us have broad shoulders.

It can be lonely not having someone to talk you through things
as well as frustrating. In the MAC world it can be the same as
well.

Bigpaws
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: The Headacher on December 21, 2007, 08:09:34 am
Quote
But let's say you're an audiophile like me and you want to do some recording. Nothing fancy, just a simple cassette-to-hard-drive transfer. You can't.
I am and I can. But I too had some trouble to get my audio card and my usb->midi device working properly. I know how frustrating it is when hardware doesn't work the way it should.

Quote
I'm sick of all these surprise obstacles to what ought to be simple, routine tasks. If they can work OK under a junk OS like Windows 98SE, why can't they just work under Vector Linux?
Well, during testing these tasks may have missed the attention of the testers. For instance, I haven't copied an audio CD for a long time. What's an important task to you might not be important to others. Also, with as little testers as we have we can't test every piece of hardware.

Because I have had trouble with Linux as well, I don't often recommend it to others, and I am sort of hesitant when people ask me to install it for them. But I love using it and always feel very frustrated when I have to use Windows.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: MikeCindi on December 21, 2007, 10:03:43 am
Well, I too wish I had the perfect OS. Unfortunately it doesn't exist (can I put a "yet" here and not be delusional?) and the number of variables that adversely impact reaching "perfection" is increasing. What the others have posted I too would agree with. Currently, to get what I need or want to get done each day has me dual-booting between WinXP and VL. Hanumizzle pointed out why I stick with VL verses some other distro - the community is by far the best.
Mike
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: tomh38 on December 21, 2007, 11:13:40 am
mikecindi

No, you cannot put a "yet" there and not be delusional.  ;D  You're right, though, in saying that things in general are getting better.  Even Windows, of which I am not very fond, is much better than when I started using it (Windows 3.11).

As to the original post:  youngtomedison - I don't want to be harsh, but I suggest that it is unproductive to rant, and more productive to learn about GNU/Linux (Vector if you choose, some other distribution if not).  If you decide GNU/Linux is not what you want or need, then you will have to go elsewhere.  I've heard from many people that Mac OS X is great.  Perhaps what you need lies there.  Until then, should you choose to continue to use Vector Linux, I would urge you to make use of the great community that is here.  People are eager to help you - I've never met a friendlier and more solicitous group in any forum.  If your problem can be solved, they will do their best to help you solve it.  I'm not making any promises for them, I just know this from experience.  Do expect, however, to do some work of your own.  People can't help you if you don't try; if all you have to say is that Linux sucks and that it's full of bugs, I don't think you'll get very far.

Respectfully,
Tom
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: M0E-lnx on December 21, 2007, 12:06:05 pm
Tom could have not said it any better. If no os is good enough for ya then i may suggest you either start writing you own or else seek professional help (j/k). that's the beauty of choice.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: BlueMage on December 22, 2007, 08:15:40 pm
first of all, I'll open by saying "lol Mac".  Second, I'll add that while vista may be a resource-hogging blob, it's a blob that works if you use common sense and install it on the hardware it's intended for.

Third, I'll say that (odd as this may seem - no, I'm not a masochist) half the fun of linux is sorting out the frustrations.  Despite what they tell you, every computer is different in its own subtle way.  No two the exact same (for the home user).  As such, sorting out the frustrations are as much part and parcel of using linux as changing the nappy is when you have a baby.  And in truth, it shouldn't be any other way.

The hard tasks are the only ones worth doing, and frequently bring the greatest reward.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 22, 2007, 09:06:03 pm
As such, sorting out the frustrations are as much part and parcel of using linux as changing the nappy is when you have a baby.  And in truth, it shouldn't be any other way.

The hard tasks are the only ones worth doing, and frequently bring the greatest reward.

Hm, life is often like that. Sometimes I wish it were better but, anyway, at least Linux doesn't threaten your welfare when it doesn't function properly. "All's well that ends well."
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: nightflier on December 23, 2007, 07:33:35 am
I have been known to let out a rant or two myself, including some in this forum. Some times it just feels good to vent.

Frustrations and challenges have been part of my computer education. I remember my first DOS machine.. why on earth did they choose for directory separator a symbol (\) that does not have a standard keyboard location? Windows 3.0.. ah, what a crash course that was. Win95.. anyone remember trying to get USB working on that one? Accelerated graphics: am I the only one who spent hundreds of dollars on upgrades to get a $50 game to run?

I spent a lot of time and effort learning to use computers. Each stage had it's obstacles. The transition to Linux was no different, but I stuck with it, and I am glad I did.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 23, 2007, 07:36:47 am
Frustrations and challenges have been part of my computer education.

I remember when I thought it was possible to write to CD-ROMs as normal disks. Oops.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: rbistolfi on December 23, 2007, 07:54:36 am
Frustrations and challenges have been part of my computer education.

I remember when I thought it was possible to write to CD-ROMs as normal disks. Oops.

The first time I listened about internet, I spent hours connecting the TV antenna cable to some pc-compatible plug (I can't remember which kind). I wonder why it didn't work.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: retired1af on December 23, 2007, 08:03:10 am
No OS is perfect. If you're looking for utopia in the computer world, you're going to end up being extremely frustrated and disillusioned.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: tomh38 on December 23, 2007, 08:36:12 am
One of the things I like about Linux (which is also something that a lot of people see as a drawback) is that there are so many choices.  Different ways to do so many things.  Sure, it's somewhat harder to learn than certain *cough* other operating systems, but I find that the effort is well worth it.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 23, 2007, 09:00:58 am
No OS is perfect. If you're looking for utopia in the computer world, you're going to end up being extremely frustrated and disillusioned.

That reminds me of how Plato said that we can understand perfection intuitively, yet perfection does not exist, only approximations of perfection. I imagine even the electrons that determine whether two numbers are equal on a computer are somehow slightly different. Well, anyway, Linux is an approximation of perfection for my part. Slackware, and then Vector Linux, is a refinement of that.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/KochFlake.svg/362px-KochFlake.svg.png)
"Vector Linux: The n+1 iteration of perfection"

Should be our new motto I think.

Different ways to do so many things.  Sure, it's somewhat harder to learn than certain *cough* other operating systems, but I find that the effort is well worth it.

I still don't know many Windows administration tools. I usually have to look them up. The only one I know by heart outside of the usual stuff in Control Panel is MMC from my high school days. And the shell is just awful, btw.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: BlueMage on December 23, 2007, 09:20:58 am
Frustrations and challenges have been part of my computer education. I remember my first DOS machine.. why on earth did they choose for directory separator a symbol (\) that does not have a standard keyboard location? Windows 3.0.. ah, what a crash course that was. Win95.. anyone remember trying to get USB working on that one? Accelerated graphics: am I the only one who spent hundreds of dollars on upgrades to get a $50 game to run

I'm going to sheepishly raise my hand here.  For me, it was Fury3 with a joystick.  Oh man that was good times.  And before that, Duke3d with a Wingman joystick (y'know, the one that had the knob for turning and the lateral joystick movement for strafing?  Would've been one of the first devices that would introduced folks to circle-strafing)
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 23, 2007, 09:57:45 am
I'm going to sheepishly raise my hand here.  For me, it was Fury3 with a joystick.  Oh man that was good times.  And before that, Duke3d with a Wingman joystick (y'know, the one that had the knob for turning and the lateral joystick movement for strafing?  Would've been one of the first devices that would introduced folks to circle-strafing)

Now you have me thinking of that terrible Doom movie.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: rbistolfi on December 23, 2007, 11:06:00 am
My karma was trying to take some more low memory for games in dos, tweaking config.sys and plaing with himem.sys and emm386.sys, iirc.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: youngtomedison on December 23, 2007, 11:35:16 am
...

...I stay with Linux, specifically Vector, because it offers me a community experience you can't get with most other operating systems. Case in point: on most other computer fora, you would probably get a response like "STFU n00b" or perhaps plain indifference. That didn't happen here.

JMO

I've used Macs in a computer lab setting back in the day. I am no stranger to the little "bomb" thing (the Mac equivalent of the MS "blue screen of death"). I also had a virus eat a word-processor file I was working on!

Your response and others like it bear out your point about community versus the fraternity mentality I've found elsewhere.

I'm only new to Linux. I've been using computers of one kind or another for many years (CP/M, anyone?). I guess for me, switching to Linux is like going from a Chevy or Lincoln to a sports car which performs wonderfully for the most part but is constantly in the shop!


If Debian and Windows work for you why don't you continue to use it?

Because the flavor of Windows I was using was a lot more crashy and aggravating. At least Linux holds up a lot better. Debian, and especially Ubuntu were full of mysterious defects which I couldn't pin down. For instance, CDs burned under Ubuntu with K3B would not play properly in my (admittedly finicky) car stereo while discs burned under Windows, Debian, SUSE or Vector - with the same hardware - played fine.

Quote
I'm sick of being frustrated.

I certainly agree with that. Please look at the
whole problem before just jumping. ... ...

...Your reports about Audacity is usually one of two
problems the way the program was compiled or a
different version. The different version should not
really be the case but I have seen it. Have you done
any research for audio editing?...

Your thoughts (rant) is certainly understandable. If that is
all this is then rant away most of us have broad shoulders.

It can be lonely not having someone to talk you through things
as well as frustrating. In the MAC world it can be the same as
well.

Bigpaws

Thank you, Bigpaws. People with broad shoulders are definitely a life-saver for this recovering Windows user! I appreciate your level-headed and non-judgemental response. It is rather lonely, knowing only one person locally who knows what Linux is about. I did Google up a local Linux users group. They won't be meeting for another month unfortunately, but it's a start.

My real-world friend knows many of the fundamentals of Linux (it was at his suggestion that I decided to try Linux! He's the one who recommended Vector to me.) Unfortunately, his primary activities seem to be watching DVDs and videos, playing games and downloading things. He has no experience or expertise even with basic stuff like printing, let alone audio drivers and such.

As for audio editing, I've edited and processed sound in the digital domain since the radio station I DJ'd for swapped our aging reel-to-reel analogue tape decks for a 450 Mhz Pentium II with 256 MB of RAM, a 6GB hard drive, and a copy of Cool Edit Pro! Prior to that, I edited sound with a razor blade and splicing tape. Once I started digital sound processing, I never looked back!

The link you pointed m to is an excellent overview of Linux audio tools.

Quote
But let's say you're an audiophile like me and you want to do some recording. ...
I am and I can. But I too had some trouble to get my audio card and my usb->midi device working properly. I know how frustrating it is when hardware doesn't work the way it should.

How did you eventually solve the problem?

... ...

... I love using [linux] and always feel very frustrated when I have to use Windows.

Tell me about it! :)

Well, I too wish I had the perfect OS. ...Hanumizzle pointed out why I stick with VL verses some other distro - the community is by far the best.
Mike

It certainly is.

Tomh38 - I posted my rant for the same reason lots of folks rant about things - frustration. I'd had a thread going about my Audacity/ALSA problems for a few weeks, and despite responses and advice from some very helpful people, and my own efforts, the problem remains a tough-dog issue which refuses to let itself be solved.

I'm not a programmer, so getting deep into the workings of ones and zeros isn't in the cards for me. I hear what you're saying about diligently diving into as much info about the new OS I'm trying to adopt as possible, though I sometimes get stuck a lot on some technical issues. I'm computer-literate enough to tell my sister that the reason her WIN XP machine won't boot is probably due to either a hard drive malfunction, data corruption due to other causes, or a bad IDE controller on her motherboard, based upon her over-the-phone description. (I do hope she's backed up her files. it's amazing how many people won't invest the few minutes to burn a disc or hook up an external HD to keep their data from going missing). But mostly, I use my computer(s) for processing sound, still pictures and audio. IOW, I consider myself to be a slightly above-average user.

Perhaps another respondent's suggestion of double-booting between VL and Windows might be the only way to go, at least for now. :( Film at 11.

As for perfection, I know that it only exists on television. In the commercials.

Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: newt on December 23, 2007, 03:29:45 pm
...

Perhaps another respondent's suggestion of double-booting between VL and Windows might be the only way to go, at least for now. :( Film at 11.

...
I wonder if wine (not the alcohol) could serve you well in this instance.  Maybe your favorite Win application is usable under wine which would, at least, allow you to stay in VL without the overhead of dual-booting.  Just an idea.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: hata_ph on December 23, 2007, 05:16:50 pm
Hi youngtomedison, sorry for not helping much as I am not very good in audio processing in Linux but your post with such controversial post title will make a lot of unwanted tension among other.

back to the topic, maybe wine or virtualbox (depend on your hardware) is your temporary solution.....until your problem resolve.....

BTW, VL5.9 STD GOLD is out...maybe you can have a try with this new version....
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: rbistolfi on December 23, 2007, 05:32:09 pm
I've seen some problems in the alsa mail list related o the delta and the newer alsa releases. Unfortunately, my isp is banned because it is a spammer, so I can't send mail to the list. Perhaps you want to do it by yourself, those guys are really good, and some devs are actually in the list. I will try to end mail from another isp connection. I don't think wine or vm's can solve this kind of problems, sound will work exactly like it does in linux, and the performance of audacity will be the worst. A long shot, perhaps realtime support is not included in our kernel config anymore?

EDIT: oh!, I realized tis is not the delta44 topic, perhaps our mods want to move it to the correct place. Sorry.
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: tomh38 on December 23, 2007, 05:39:58 pm
Quote
Tomh38 - I posted my rant for the same reason lots of folks rant about things - frustration. I'd had a thread going about my Audacity/ALSA problems for a few weeks, and despite responses and advice from some very helpful people, and my own efforts, the problem remains a tough-dog issue which refuses to let itself be solved.

All right, that's fine, I have no problem with that.  I've often felt the same way myself, and I have from time to time dealt with difficult issues with Linux.  At one point I had a networking card (HPNA) which should have worked with Linux;  I spent months trying to get it to work but never did.  So I can see where you're coming from.

But ...

Quote
Linux sucks.

OK, why does Linux suck?

It sucks because it's full of bugs.

Sorry to say it, but that's not really ranting about your frustration despite friendly attempts to help you in the Vector Linux forums.  It's trolling, and it's flamebait.

All the same, I hope you manage to work out your recording difficulties.  I would offer to help, but I have no knowledge or experience with what you're trying to do.

Tom
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on December 23, 2007, 06:46:45 pm
Sorry to say it, but that's not really ranting about your frustration despite friendly attempts to help you in the Vector Linux forums.  It's trolling, and it's flamebait.

Not really. I remember saying something about Linux network documentation sucking several years ago on comp.os.linux.networking. Of course I didn't want to inflame negative sentiments on that NG (you'll know when I want to troll), I was only incredibly frustrated with the task at hand.

(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4848/rotk2255yx8.jpg)
[hanumizzle assumes troll form]
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: The Headacher on December 24, 2007, 03:18:45 am
Quote from: youngtomedison
Quote
But let's say you're an audiophile like me and you want to do some recording. ...
I am and I can. But I too had some trouble to get my audio card and my usb->midi device working properly. I know how frustrating it is when hardware doesn't work the way it should.

How did you eventually solve the problem?
Well, for the usb -> midi device (ESI m4u) I had to contact the alsa-user mailinglist. The device wasn't quite as standards compliant as I believed when I bought it. since alsa-driver 1.0.14 it works just great though, they added some lines in the code for the snd_usb_audio module to take care of it.

My on-board soundcard (some intel "high definition" audio piece of crap) didn't quite work well with previous versions of alsa, but seems to work sort of ok with alsa-driver 1.0.15. However, to use it reliably with jack I have to turn up the number of buffered frames to 4, or I'll get xruns all over the place. Took me quite a while to figure that one out. Also, it doesn't have a master channel. This is probably because the card itself has no "master" channel.

Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: tomh38 on December 24, 2007, 06:16:42 am
Hey youngtomedison.

I take back what I said about the trolling and the flamebait.  After having given it some thought, I realized that there have been plenty of times when out of frustration I've said "this sucks" or "that sucks" without really meaning it - that is to say, just because of the frustration and anger over not being accomplish a particular goal.

Also, Hanumizzle is my supreme pontiff when it comes to these matters, except that he doesn't even have to speak ex cathedra, all he has to do is put fingers to keyboard.  So if he says you weren't trolling, then you weren't.

Please accept my apology.

Tom
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: youngtomedison on December 24, 2007, 06:56:54 am
Tomh38 - Apology accepted.

I chose the Delta sound card because it was a much better option than on-board sound, it worked with Linux (at least according to the research I did 3 years ago), and um,it was on sale! (I wouldn't have chosen a multitrack model, but there it was, and it was within my budget.) I hope that I can get it to work properly with VL.

newtor, hata_ph - I tried using WINE in other distros. In one instance it worked fine. In another it didn't work at all. And I agree that my sound drivers might still be an issue, as you suggested.

rbistofli - How do I reach the ALSA mailing list?

hanimuzzle - Thanks. I appreciate your empathy!

Headacher
- My own card seems to have lots of "master channels", but I'll be damned if I can figure out what each slider (in ALSA or GAMIX) is for. Thus far I've been working by trial-and-error. So far I can get fine stereo output (crosses fingers). Also, that "frames" adjustment you described, how does one access that parameter? For that matter, how do I determine which sliders in ALSA do what with my Delta sound card?

And lastly, but not least, thank you to everyone who responded. It's so nice to have a community to turn to when things don't pan out. It sure beats what most software firms now call "customer service"!

Happy holidays, everyone!

Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: rbistolfi on December 24, 2007, 08:15:29 am
http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Mailing-lists#alsa-user_at_lists.sourceforge.net

LOL, a guy just posted a problem with an m-audio very similar to yours, but it was just the amplifier cable  ::)
Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: youngtomedison on December 24, 2007, 07:13:45 pm
http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Mailing-lists#alsa-user_at_lists.sourceforge.net

LOL, a guy just posted a problem with an m-audio very similar to yours, but it was just the amplifier cable  ::)

Thanks for the link.

I have found, when diagnosing what might be wrong with a malfunctioning piece of gear, that half the time, it's something dumb, like what you've described. I myself have been the one with egg on his face from not having found the loose cable, switch turned to the wrong setting, etc.!

Title: Re: A rant -Linux Sucks, and Why
Post by: Pita on December 24, 2007, 09:46:00 pm
How lucky I can call myself only knowing Linux and this system has come a long way. On my first Redhat box one had to hack the sound yet. I still have the instructions for it. Now if something does not work I kick it out and try something else. If a program will not install, delete it. That simple. I am less than a year with VectorLinux-5.8, built a nice house for my needs. What worries me now is that I apparently cannot upgrade to VL5.9 instead have to make a new install. That one sucks.