VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: M0E-lnx on January 04, 2008, 09:13:32 pm

Title: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: M0E-lnx on January 04, 2008, 09:13:32 pm
This occured to me about 2 days ago, when I was trying to run VL on one really old machine
PIII 500mhz
64mb ram
2 X 4gb hard drives

I tried VL, but it seems too heavy for it. It takes about 5 minutes to boot and I end up with a non-gui boot.

So I dloaded a DSL iso, and booted that.
That seems to work ok (somewhat)
* boots fast ( <20 secs)
* ships JWM & Fluxbox both are fast

The bad part with DSL is the poor selection of installed software.

So here is the idea I had.
Can we produce a "really light" version of VL that would be aimed @ even older boxes than STD is?
Here is a a couple of things I have in mind

* Keep the ISO under 300mb (DSL is only 50mb)
* Ship JWM and FLux (configured like in 5.9std)
This ISO would only contain the most basic but useful applications
* One browser (make it dillo to keep it light)
* one good terminal app
* light Office apps (gnumeric, abiword (or even other lighter ones))
* No kernel src

I could really use something like this to rescue this old piece of junk here.
I'd like to see what everyone thinks about this... I know VL is already aimed at old hardware, but you have to admit that in order to stay up-to-date with new technology (visual effects, new applications, etc), VL is not as light as it used to be. So I really do think we should consider this.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: saulgoode on January 04, 2008, 11:46:43 pm
So here is the idea I had.
Can we produce a "really light" version of VL that would be aimed @ even older boxes than STD is?

I support this idea. At the time VL 5.1 was being developed, I commented on the system requirements being slightly more than what was typically available in machines found by "dumpster diving". Even now, there are a lot of discarded Win98 or early XP machines which have 300-800MHz processors but only 32-96Mb RAM. SIMM memory modules of 32Mb can be had for next to nothing, but larger ones are rarely available used and are not particularly good values when purchased new. The fact that most motherboards only offered three memory slots means that populating a board with more than 96Mb of RAM exceeds the point of diminishing returns.

There IS a "market" for a GNU/Linux which targets resurrected machines and I think that Vector should offer a version which targets that market. The reason to do so is to encourage further development of Vector. Not only would you gain the ambassadorship of users receiving machines distributed from people like Lagnanon (who refurbishes older machines for the disadvantaged), but current VL users might be more likely to resurrect an old freebie than to risk their understandably treasured primary installation for purposes of experimentation.

The goal of attracting new developers (not to mention new users) by offering a basically "no-cost" platform upon which to experiment should make MOE-lnx's idea well worth pursuing. I, myself, have had little interest in contributing to Vector development but would be very interested in dedicating some time towards the goal of producing a minimalist version.

Here is a a couple of things I have in mind

* Keep the ISO under 300mb (DSL is only 50mb)
* Ship JWM and FLux (configured like in 5.9std)
This ISO would only contain the most basic but useful applications
* One browser (make it dillo to keep it light)
* one good terminal app
* light Office apps (gnumeric, abiword (or even other lighter ones))
* No kernel src

I agree with you other than I think Dillo (as much as I like it) is a little too barebones and an additional option should be offered. Also, terminal apps typically consume only tens of kilobytes on a CD and little is gained by limiting available options (though if the default menu setup only presented one terminal, that would be fine).

Likewise, there are quite a few window managers available which require well under a megabyte of disk space and I would suggest that if a developer volunteers to package and maintain one of these, it should be a valid candidate for inclusion (for myself, I would offer to maintain a UWM package requiring 50Kb on the CD). Again, the default installation could focus on just one or two, but I see nothing wrong with the CD including a couple of megabytes of lightweight WMs.



One thing that should need to be addressed in creating a ultralight VL version is a refactoring of the Vector bulk tarballs. The current bulk tarball for core functionality (no X11) is 80Mb, which seems to be a somewhat bloated starting point for minimalist version.

To be honest, I wonder if it might not be prudent to reconsider the utility of the bulk tarball approach to installation. Back when I first used Vector (version 2.0), the space savings (on the CD image) by the bzipped bulk versus the original gzipped Slackware packages was significant -- with the advent of Vector packages being offered with LZMA compression, I fail to see a benefit to bulk tarball installation methodology. It would seem to me that a return to individual package installs, with the appropriate use of SW's tagfiles, would provide some welcome flexibility to installers (custom and repeatable installations, network installs, installs from non-standard devices). Is there some benefit offered by bulk tarballs which I am missing?

Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: uelsk8s on January 04, 2008, 11:52:25 pm
Quote
Is there some benefit offered by bulk tarballs which I am missing?
installing individual tlz packages is much slower.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Xeon on January 05, 2008, 01:27:48 am
Does it really take 5 min  ???
I run it on a pentium 2 machine 340mhz, 128mb ram. Stripped 5.8 std install, no gui, no unneeded stuff. Compiled apache mysql and postgresql to load on boot and it takes 57 seconds to load the system. I now added X with ion for users without console knowledge and the gui boots in 5~6 seconds.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Joe1962 on January 05, 2008, 01:39:56 am
Even 5.9 Std should work pretty decent on that machine. I did some testing on a 64 MB vm and it was ok. Could be the HDDs are way too slow or not getting DMA mode. Fluxbox without wbar would leave some RAM for lightweight apps, maybe leave out kdm too. Some swap will inevitably occur once you run Abiword, dilo and a terminal, but not much (might be smart to use xterm instead of the xfce terminal, as well).

Also, support for older hardware is a sliding window. There comes a point where you will have to stick with VL4 or earlier on some of them, like you wouldn't put XP or even 2K on that example PC, for instance.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: saulgoode on January 05, 2008, 02:13:58 am
installing individual tlz packages is much slower.

True, some quick benchmarking suggests that bulk installation is nearly twice as fast as individual packages when using LZMA. But Vector took a much higher hit in regard to installation speed back when it used BZIP2 bulks: at that time the bzipped bulks took over twice as long to install as individual gzipped packages. I shouldn't foresee a big problem if Vector stayed with bulks for the Standard and SOHO versions, but it would seem an ultralight version should need concern itself more with flexibility than installation speed (which would still be less than that of Standard by virtue of its smaller footprint).



FYI: my benchmarking used the Inkscape package and my harddrive for both source and destination (I didn't think to use a tmpfs until afterward).

GZIP (15M compressed)
- Bulk: 1.787s
- Inst: 3.698s
BZIP2 (11M compressed)
- Bulk: 10.212s
- Inst: 20.624s
LZMA (5.7M compressed)
- Bulk: 2.932s
- Inst: 5.790s
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nightflier on January 05, 2008, 05:39:57 am
Couldn't this be done as a how-to? Instruct the user to do a bare-bones install, then post slapt-get commands to add more.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: rbistolfi on January 05, 2008, 05:51:02 am
Given the fact the difference is mostly in the packages (is this right?), perhaps the installer could be in charge.  But as Saulgoode pointed, a minimal version (I think nubcunubdo proposed a VL Lite before) could give Vector some more exposure.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: exeterdad on January 05, 2008, 07:06:12 am
We can name it DSVL.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: M0E-lnx on January 05, 2008, 07:13:06 am
it really does take 5 minutes... literally 5 long ones
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: easuter on January 05, 2008, 07:29:40 am
Xorg is also partially responsible for this IMO. My desktop VL 5.8 and VL 5.9 installs have practically the same setup when it comes to running services (no HAL), and the thing that really stands out in htop as a resource hog on VL 5.9 is Xorg.

On VL 5.8 its consuming about 1-2% CPU while idle and 2-3% of ram while idle (my box is a P3 900mhz with 256mb ram). But on VL 5.9, xorg uses 10% CPU while idle and about 10 to 20% ram idle... and that goes up when a lot

Maybe Volkerding was not crazy by sticking to Xorg 6  :-\
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Joe1962 on January 05, 2008, 11:02:55 am
Check out these screenshots of VL 5.9 taken in a 64MB vm, with fluxbox and xfce, showing a full-screen htop. You can see that xfce terminal is a "resource hog" at this RAM level. All the different XFCE "parts" make up quite a bit too. On fluxbox, wbar becomes noticeable, as does the xfce-mcs-manager. However, you can see that xterm is much lighter than terminal. CPU usage is pretty much nothing on both cases though.


    (http://www.image-upload.net/files/5316/screenshots/VL59-64MB-fluxbox-htop-g_thumb.jpg)
 (http://www.image-upload.net/files/5316/screenshots/VL59-64MB-fluxbox-htop-g.jpg)

    (http://www.image-upload.net/files/5316/screenshots/VL59-64MB-xfce-htop-g_thumb.jpg)
 (http://www.image-upload.net/files/5316/screenshots/VL59-64MB-xfce-htop-g.jpg)
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 05, 2008, 11:33:05 am
Blowzilla browsers have always been the greatest memory hogs for me.  ::)
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Joe1962 on January 05, 2008, 11:35:14 am
Yes, I wouldn't run those or OOorg on 64 MB RAM... ;)
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: M0E-lnx on January 05, 2008, 11:46:52 am
that's why this would be a very thin release. Including just the essential stuff. In case the user decides the want more they can always install what they need via gslapt
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Joe1962 on January 05, 2008, 12:58:28 pm
BTW, could the XFCE Start menu / Quit bug be memory-related? It has a 100% failure rate in a 64 MB vm, and AFAICT a 0% failure rate in a 512 MB vm.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 05, 2008, 02:41:43 pm
Can we produce a "really light" version of VL that would be aimed @ even older boxes than STD is?

This is wrong way in my opinion. Generally  speaking I dislike the fragmentation of linux distros. Instead of spliting forces on several hundreds distros people should rather unite to make fewer of them but more polished and less buggy. The same IMHO holds true for Vector: instead of dividing power among Standard, Live and SOHO maybe it would be better to concentrate? Don`t try to make a version for every possible purpose.

Why is Vector based on Slackware? Because Slackware is good, I suppose. Why is it good? Because there is only ONE Slackware that shines.

BTW: Vecor is rather addressed not for newbies. Thus people using it probably should have enough experience to removepkg and feedle in /etc to make it work on older machines.

Anyway, the developers must decide if they have enough time to take care of all those Vector clones.

Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: easuter on January 05, 2008, 03:05:14 pm
Distro proliferation is Linux's weakness and strength at the same time. Weakness, because as you pointed out, the development effort is somewhat spread around instead of concentrated in one single distro.
BUT: there is NEVER "one size thats fits all", there are always niches that can't be satisfied by using one distro, so a new one is made.
And competition is always healthy  ;)
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 05, 2008, 03:36:27 pm
BUT: there is NEVER "one size thats fits all", there are always niches that can't be satisfied by using one distro, so a new one is made.
And competition is always healthy  ;)

Competition is healthy because there is natural selection. And current data for selection of the desktop use (and Vector is aimed for the desktop, I guess) according to latest Slashdot is as follows:
"OS X has seen continual growth, from 4.21% in Jan 2006 to 7.31% in December 2007 at the same time, Linux's percentage has risen from only 0.29% to 0.63%"
Which means linux on desktop is within statistical error. I think that distro proliferation is one of the causes. Competition is very healthy within linux world only, but when compared to outside, well...
Maybe Windows and Apple are succesfull on the desktop because for them there are no niches that can't be satisfied by using one distro?
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: easuter on January 05, 2008, 03:49:52 pm
Quote
Maybe Windows and Apple are succesfull because for them there are no niches that can't be satisfied by using one distro?

I really wonder how accurate those numbers really are. Either way, MS and Apple are in it for the money, nothing else. Their users are led to believe that their problems have to be adapted to the OS, when it should be the other way around. and most people don't question that way of thinking. The few that do are having this conversation right now  :)

Most of FOSS devs couldn't care less if their app/OS dominates the world, its the technical challenge and ego that drives them  ;D
Linus Torvalds wrote the kernel "Just For Fun" (tm).

And thats why companies like MS and Apple are like so many others that can just die out, because their entire premise for existence is money, nothing else.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: bigpaws on January 05, 2008, 03:53:13 pm
You have to love numbers. You can take any
numbers and  through languafe make look how
you want.

So look at the facts if these numbers are correct
then:

Mac had increase in use of  76% impressive numbers.

Linux on the other hand had 117% increase, maybe
smaller numbers but larger growth.

Bigpaws

Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 05, 2008, 04:07:22 pm
Most of FOSS devs couldn't care less if their app/OS dominates the world, its the technical challenge and ego that drives them  ;D

I realize that :) Same for me: it`s the technical challenge and ego that drives me to use linux :)
But wouldn`t it be most honestly to emphasize when installing a linux distro: "hey guys we make this distro because of technical chalenge and ego and don`t care much if it dominates desktop usage so don`t expect we understand the needs of average-joe"?
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 05, 2008, 04:19:44 pm
You have to love numbers.

Slashdot does. In a way I do, too.
Emmanuel Kant said: there is as much truth in science as there is mathematics in this science. And I agree. Every computer users loves numbers in a way, even if he does not realize that  :P

Quote
Mac had increase in use of  76% impressive numbers.
Linux on the other hand had 117% increase, maybe
smaller numbers but larger growth.

I know that there is lie, bigger lie and statistics :)
Anyway 117% grow in values as low as within statistical error can be safely ignored.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: rbistolfi on January 05, 2008, 05:46:29 pm
If I understand Moe-LNX proposition correctly, the difference between the VL flavors is mostly in the packages, Moe stated would be not much work to develope another vl flavor. Saulgoode said this could attract more people to the vl project. Those arguments are still there. This is being proposed with the assumption VL will have more resources by a depreciable amount of work. We should focus on those arguments. In the other hand, as Joe pointed, STD already performs very well if you do careful choices and heavy apps can be replaced easily.
I just wanted to do a resume and kick the thread back to the original topic  :P
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: exeterdad on January 05, 2008, 07:20:29 pm
Agreed rbistolfi.

My thoughts.  I've seen many requests lately, and many people stating that VL has become bloated compared to past releases.   I personally think that a slimmed version of VL would be great. A minimalistic install.  Don't try to make the masses happy.  Just enough to get a usable desktop.  I feel Fluxbox would be good choice.  It might not be a preference to many, but it's usable enough for any first timer to comfortably get productive, or enough get to Gslapt to start customizing.  I am hopeful when the iso is pruned down, it isn't pruned too deeply as the majority of the core packages  have no slack-depends file.  So if the user in the future needs to replace these packages, they are going to have a tough time as there will be no dependency tracking.

Also, as pointed out, it would be more visual activity for us on DW.  And maybe even attract an audience that may of passed us over in the past.  And for much less effort from a development standpoint.

This is all fine and dandy except for one thing...  Who will step up to the plate and take this on?  I'm not a dev, but I've gotten a small taste of the "behind the scenes" here at VL.  There is a ton of work going on until the wee hours of the morning, on a daily basis.  And it's sick how few dev's are doing this work.  I have a tiny little office, and there is no doubt in my mind that all the dev's could fit in here and have a beer with me.  I've no idea how many VL users there are, many thousands at least, but the VL user, VL dev ratio is way out of balance.

I think M0E has a great idea, he's done his time as with the rest of the devs.  But we really shouldn't consider this project unless people step up to the plate and are willing to pitch in.  There is plenty to be done that doesn't involve coding and such.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 05, 2008, 07:46:36 pm
DeLi, DSL, Puppy, NimbleX, NimbleXsub100, Custom NimbleX 2, Wolvix Cub

NimbleX is a pretty outstanding effort so if you're interested in Vector Lite, you might wanna check out NimbleX. If we do a lite version of VL intended for older machines, maybe we could improve dialup support/modem detection.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: saulgoode on January 06, 2008, 03:07:12 pm
Correct me if my line of thinking is impractical or if I am missing something.

Instead of having a core "vector-essential" set of packages based on Standard, this core base would need to be dictated by the more minimal demands of the light version. Conceptually, the Standard installation would first extract the vector-essential bulk of the light version and then extract a bulk which brings that base up to the level of a "Standard-essential" -- though the installer itself could use a merged version of those two bulks.

Packages which might be needed for Standard but excluded from the light version would need slack-depends files created if they don't already exist. It would not be acceptable to have different packages specific to the different versions of VL, so any packages available for the light version would be the same package (if) included in the Standard version's bulk.

Thus releasing a light version would have a developmental impact on Standard; it could not be developed completely independent of the other Vector versions. However, for the most part this impact would consist of regenerating (adding dependencies) the packages in "Standard-essential" which are not in the core light version. The lion's share of the burden of regenerating these new packages should rightly fall on the light version developers, rather than on the standard developers, even though these packages may not be included in the light version. Nonetheless, usage, support, and maintenance of these packages would eventually fall on the entire development team.

As stated earlier, I would be willing to contribute towards such a release -- and perhaps MOE-lnx and Lagnanon would be interested -- but the ultimate decision lies with the Vector management and developers.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: rbistolfi on January 06, 2008, 03:32:51 pm
I think you are right, a packaging station must be always the smallest VL.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: uelsk8s on January 06, 2008, 04:12:13 pm
We think that this is a good idea.

To move foreward with this we will need to have a package list to start from.
The list of packages on the ISO for 5.9 is here: http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/57314
Saulgoode, if you (or anyone else) want to make an account at numsum.com I will make a new copy of this spreadsheet and you can start marking out packages to form a new smaller list.
Once this is done we can move on from there.

Uelsk8s
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Dweeberkitty on January 06, 2008, 06:34:35 pm
Cool spreadsheet. I could use something like that for the MMBD. How did you make it? Do you have scripts?
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: uelsk8s on January 06, 2008, 06:35:56 pm
Cool spreadsheet. I could use something like that for the MMBD. How did you make it? Do you have scripts?
make an account at numsum.com and go from there
Title: Something has to go.
Post by: The Headacher on January 07, 2008, 02:24:35 am
Looks like we'll end up with a lot of different versions:

VL "light?"
VL standard
VL standard Live
VL64 standard
VL SOHO
VL SOHO Live
VL64 SOHO
(several others have been suggested in the past)

So, the question is: Do you think there is enough manpower to test and release all of these? I don't think so, perhaps we should scratch some of these, and focus on a few 'core' products (IMO these should be VL standard and SOHO). All the rest is nice and funny, but just niches. We can't and shouldn't make a distro for every niche.

Other distro's are much better at making Live versions. The 64 bit VL so far doesn't seem any faster or better than the normal version on my 64 bit box. Perhaps if we just "scrap" those 64 bit and live versions we can focus on this "light" version, and make 3 quality releases, instead of trying to build and maintain 7 or more different versions, which is virtually impossible. It will take some weight of Uelsk8s' shoulders (though he probably enjoys doing what he does), and will make things less confusing: If you want VL, get the install cd and install, rather than trying a livecd, and attempt installing from it, ending up with a system that's just different enough from the non-live version to run into trouble. 
Title: Re: Something has to go.
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 07, 2008, 03:02:14 am
perhaps we should scratch some of these, and focus on a few 'core' products (IMO these should be VL standard and SOHO). [...] If you want VL, get the install cd and install, rather than trying a livecd, and attempt installing from it

Agreed :) Focus is necessary.
Live version can be dropped, especially when non-live ones install very fast, so if you want to test, there`s no problem
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nightflier on January 07, 2008, 05:28:05 am
While we're brainstorming: I'd vote for making VL Standard lighter. Drop XFCE in favor of Fluxbox. Make SOHO the full-featured, heavy version (but still fast in it's class).

uelsk8s should be free to make whatever he wants in Live. I personally do use Live discs for troubleshooting, testing and repair. No need for hard drive install.

As pointed out, manpower is a major concern. I'd say: keep the developers happy. Allow them to do what they enjoy and do best. Rather than trying to conquer the world and convert the masses, let the volunteers enjoy what they are doing. I'm sure they will listen to suggestions and try to please as many as they can.
Title: Re: Something has to go.
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 07, 2008, 08:57:48 am
Looks like we'll end up with a lot of different versions:

VL "light?"
VL standard
VL standard Live
VL64 standard
VL SOHO
VL SOHO Live
VL64 SOHO
(several others have been suggested in the past)

So, the question is: Do you think there is enough manpower to test and release all of these? I don't think so, perhaps we should scratch some of these, and focus on a few 'core' products (IMO these should be VL standard and SOHO). All the rest is nice and funny, but just niches. We can't and shouldn't make a distro for every niche.

AGREED WHOLEHEARTEDLY
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 07, 2008, 09:12:55 am
We should retain VL Std LiveCD for its demonstration purposes and lower hardware requirements.

VL Std
VL Std LiveCD
VL SOHO

I would also favor VL Lite/Core if feasible. Or else, at least, provide a detailed howto for paring down VL Std for a frugal install. I think we should carefully define our objectives in such a project as VL Lite/Core/Barebones, with an awareness that there are already several excellent distros that specialize in being small and efficient.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: newt on January 07, 2008, 09:18:45 am
In my mind, headachers 7 possibilities break down like this: (I could be 180° off base here; just how _I_ invision the process)

--------------------------------------------------

VL Light/Core requires all dev man power and is the engine of VL.  Time intensive, heavy dev power.

VL Standard depends on Core; adds dev power to make it "STD"; is the rest of the economy car.  Still time intensive but not as much as Core; mod-heavy dev power.

VL SOHO depends on Core (maybe STD too) PLUS adds dev power to make it "SOHO"; is the rest of the full-equipped, luxury car.  Still time intensive but not as much as Core+STD; mod-heavy dev power.

-------Up to this point, theorhetically, no additional dev power required (of course more is better)--------
-------Biggest difference is the intermediate stage between of breaking out Light/Core-------

VL Live STD & SOHO, from what I gather, is one person's work.  Makes the two "full car" releases into live releases.  Time intensive; moderate dev power.

-------Up to this point, these are ALREADY being done; that's 5 of 7 possibilities---------

VL64 STD & SOHO starts the entire, aforementioned process again from the beginning.  New core, new STD, new SOHO; new cars with different engines.  A culmination of all previous time intensivity and dev power.  Of course the logistics of putting it all together is easier, but the full effort is still required.

-------IMHO, VL64 seems like it that one "straw" ;)---------

=-=-=---=-=-=-

I like nightfliers suggestion of re-lightening STD.  Fluxbox, icewm, or anything of that magnitude would be great; don't make me pick just force one on me and I'll learn to use it ;D.  Keep it lean; keep it light; make it small; make it scream.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: easuter on January 07, 2008, 10:28:57 am
Quote
-------IMHO, VL64 seems like it that one "straw"  ;)---------

Yeah....my mind went to VL64 right away...but some think we need a 64bit distro to be taken seriously  ::)
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 07, 2008, 10:47:13 am
Quote
we need a 64bit distro to be taken seriously

I dont know about "serious" but DW ranks us 23rd, for what that's worth. When we get more users and developers we can expand, take on new responsibilities, develop community editions. Obviously, there's a shortage of users and devs right now.

To the end of presenting a distro for the most users, I say, focus on the quality of the select VL versions that we are known for, namely, Standard and SOHO. If we are deciding between a wide variety of versions and just a few select versions, I recommend the latter for the purpose of reaching the most users. (If, on the other hand, we just want to accommodate our own members in their technological pursuits, then maybe a wide variety is the way to go.)

Furthermore, too many choices might confound some new users. It's enough of a quandry to choose VL from among 400 distros, but then to present 6 or 7 more choices of VL versions, well, that would take some figuring.

KISS
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: uelsk8s on January 07, 2008, 12:22:59 pm
I have to say the first time I read this thread It bothered me. I though with standard we had the perfect mix that would cover most people. If you want a small install you can just install the required packages removing the checks for the optional ones then slapt-get Xorg and the WM you would like or install just the optional X11 bulk and remove the packages you dont want.

After thinking more about it I dont think it would be a bad idea. It would save people from having to 700mb when they only needed 300-400. It would also give us a smaller cleaner base to build upon.
I think as long as we have someone that can step in and manage package lists and such, we can make more versions without problems.

I think we have decided that after 5.9 SOHO as you know it will not be made anymore, instead it will be merged with the deluxe version.
So if we have someone (or a group) that would step up and help us manage things we would be able to produce a VL-LITE along with the
Standard and SOHO-Deluxe versions we have planned.

Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 07, 2008, 01:20:03 pm
VL Light/Core
VL Standard depends on Core;
VL SOHO depends on Core (maybe STD too)

If those three options could be merged into one CD that would make sense. A user could choose how much expanded system he wants during install. Light/Core would be the install base and Standard or SOHO would be options that require Light/Core base + some additional packages.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: The Headacher on January 07, 2008, 01:35:30 pm
Quote
I think we have decided that after 5.9 SOHO as you know it will not be made anymore, instead it will be merged with the deluxe version.
That's a great way to pretty much kill a successful version. So we invent all sorts of niche distro's but destroy the core business, the one version that has a lot of followers?

well, if we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot..... /me takes out the bandages
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 07, 2008, 01:53:59 pm
I think we have decided that after 5.9 SOHO as you know it will not be made anymore, instead it will be merged with the deluxe version.

Sounds scary... SOHO is why I use Vector at all
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 07, 2008, 02:06:26 pm
As a recovering distro-hopper, I can attest that distro-hoppers are very disappointed if they can't check out a distro with its liveCD. Distro-hoppers are liveCD-happy. So I suggest we keep a sampler liveCD, and in that regard, the choice should be Standard because it runs on more machines, yet still gives the full effect.

Quote
I think we have decided that after 5.9 SOHO as you know it will not be made anymore, instead it will be merged with the deluxe version.

We decided that? Who done that? Who decided that? What?
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: lagagnon on January 07, 2008, 02:21:20 pm
As a recovering distro-hopper, I can attest that distro-hoppers are very disappointed if they can't check out a distro with its liveCD.

But to follow that concept through to its logical conclusion inveterate distro-hoppers are often never around long enough to help support the community anyways so should we really be catering to them? I know that may be a bit harsh, but probably true in many circumstances....
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: newt on January 07, 2008, 02:27:11 pm
I think we have decided that after 5.9 SOHO as you know it will not be made anymore, instead it will be merged with the deluxe version.
So if we have someone (or a group) that would step up and help us manage things we would be able to produce a VL-LITE along with the
Standard and SOHO-Deluxe versions we have planned.
That IS a shocking statement with numerous pros and cons; and I really had no idea this would be the case.  HOWEVER, I'm not totally opposed to it either.  SOHO-deluxe should require payment.  I think influencing increased revenue for VL is good and fine; it's something VL deserves (that's how good VL is).  On the flip side, many people see such a move as a "greedy/selfish/insert_negative_adjective_here" move that will DEFINITELY push some folks away - regardless of the optional avenues provided.  Perhaps providing folks a way to make "payment" via a non-monetary form to obtain strict-SOHO could sooth the sting: have folks build packages for payment, have folks develop for payment, have folks be artistically creative for payment, have folks be port-ivily creative for payment, have folks be technically-supportive for payment, have folks be wiki-ily creative for payment, have folks be blog-ivily supportive for payment, have folks do _something_ to obtain direct ISO access for the SOHO version.  As a fall back for those that simply cannot or will not offer any help and won't pay (and because providing free things for all is a good feeling) provide a downloadable script that runs on an already-installed Standard version that will download-and-install necessary packages to increase functionality to SOHO version.  I would certainly do _something_ to taste the ISO release of SOHO - I don't know what but it would be something useful.  Notice the distinction between SOHO-deluxe and SOHO; SOHO-deluxe should always require payment.  This is all just out-loud thinking and, yes, I know it's flawed in various ways. ;D
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 07, 2008, 02:29:18 pm
I simply miss the days when only Standard, SOHO and Dynamite were present. Can't public release of a 64-bit distro wait until 64-bit CPUs become the majority?
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 07, 2008, 02:50:39 pm
nubcnubdo<====distro-hopper

Um, I'm here, been stopped on VL for a year now. I still have my 5.1 liveCD which I admired greatly when I first tried it a couple years ago. Two or three years ago I was doing Mandrake/Mandriva, hopping to Suse, Fedora, or Gentoo. My very first distro was Austrumi, as a recovery tool (dialup download).
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: M0E-lnx on January 07, 2008, 02:59:50 pm
I really dont think dropping SOHO would be that bad anyway. You can SOHO-nize an STD install very easily.
I just thought I'd throw this idea out there to remind everyone that VL was once aimed at low-end machines and to point out that we might be heading the other way on the new releases. While upgrades and new software is most of the time good, it is simply hard to maintain the same goal and at the same time stay up-to-date with current demands and competition.
Which is why I suggested an ultra-lite version. A "barebones" if you will. That way, VL would still target old machinery while at the same time be able to step up to the competition.
I really do feel that there is room for an ultra-lite VL. Checking out the suggestions some people made on this thread, I've tried a couple of them, and I have to say that I dont feel confortable with any of them.

I think if we can come up with a set of packages ranging between what DSL offers and what Wolvix offers, we should get a nice release.

I myself am willing to contribute as much as possible (in my limited time that is) if we are to develop this

BTW, I like newtor's way of thinking about the SOHO and Deluxe thing.
I think that would encourage people to contribute and also give the current contributors an incentive to keep doing what they do
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Sty on January 07, 2008, 03:02:29 pm
I know it has been a while since I've been posting here, but if I may I would like to throw my two cents in.

I would dare to venture that Vector approaches the Live CD front backwards.  If we are serious about doing a Live CD, why not develop to that as the standard?  i.e. Instead of developing Vector Standard, then porting to LIVE, why not develop Vector Standard as LIVE from the get-go?

The Pros as I see it would be:

I suppose that possible cons would be:

However, it seems that this is the best way to condense the workload for everyone.

Also, about the discontinuation of SOHO:

Initially I was against this, but upon further thinking, it does make sense.  Do we really need more than a "Base" version of Vector?  As long as packaging is still done for KDE, OOo, etc., we aren't losing anything.  In this way it should simplify development quite a bit.

This would allow for mainly two releases, Standard 32-bit and 64-bit.  From there you have the building blocks, everything you need to run a computer, and if you find you want something more, hit the repo and you're good to go.

To some who say this would be a penalty against Vector, have you EVER had an opporating system that you were 100% satisfied with from install?  Not even with Windows, the largest operating system base, do people merely install Windows and call it a day.  I, myself, add browsers, office suites, protection-services, email programs, media players, etc., before I begin to consider Windows "useable".  Again, so long as packages are available to add, Vector is in good shape.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 07, 2008, 03:38:20 pm
nubcnubdo<====distro-hopper

Um, I'm here, been stopped on VL for a year now. I still have my 5.1 liveCD which I admired greatly when I first tried it a couple years ago. Two or three years ago I was doing Mandrake/Mandriva, hopping to Suse, Fedora, or Gentoo. My very first distro was Austrumi, as a recovery tool (dialup download).

The majority of 'distro-hoppers', as I'm sure you'll agree, are not likely to stay with a given distro for very long. Then they are a relatively small niche.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 07, 2008, 03:53:26 pm
Sheesh, how do you know these promiscuous distro-hoppers? When I make a self-reference to "distro-hopper," I do not use the term as a pejorative. More like, perpetually curious; addicted. Is there a pink elephant in the living room? I thought most Linux enthusiasts were distro-hoppers, to some degree.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 07, 2008, 03:59:15 pm
Sheesh, how do you know these promiscuous distro-hoppers? When I make a self-reference to "distro-hopper," I do not use the term as a pejorative. More like, perpetually curious; addicted. Is there a pink elephant in the living room? I thought most Linux enthusiasts were distro-hoppers, to some degree.

Nor do I. I was a dist-hopper at one time as well. In fact, I don't really know what was negative about my usage of the term. I can certainly identify with 'perpetually curious' and 'addicted' because those are some of the feelings that keep me alive. Currently, my perpetual curiosity is drawn to graph theory and, as always, Norse mythology. However, there is really no way of knowing how many people who use or evaluate some distro want or need a live CD.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: rbistolfi on January 07, 2008, 04:07:28 pm
I have to say I dont hate the idea of dropping SOHO. But you have to admit it is a risky move. Until now, 5.9 is working great, and if anyone ask for kde it is in the repo. I got it with slapt-get, and it works, despiting some problems with specific packages. But I have seen more newcomers after a SOHO release.
About VL Lite, looks like it is easy enough, and the arguments lately exposed by Moe are strong.
DW ranking and users choices are a mystery. Nothing will ensure success or failure.

We have to make the most people possible to give VL a try. Distro-hoppers or not. If after giving a try we lose them, there is nothing we can do about it. I know people likes Live-CD's. I don't. I think is not a valid way to try an os because a installed version can be really different for good or bad. That said, there is a lot of people who likes live-cds, imo, and looks like the vl scripts are working good.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 07, 2008, 04:13:00 pm
DW ranking and users choices are a mystery. Nothing will ensure success or failure.

Exactly. I think we're superior to caring about stuff like DW rankings. I never even look on that site tbh.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: easuter on January 07, 2008, 04:15:12 pm
Quote from: hanumizzle
Can't public release of a 64-bit distro wait until 64-bit CPUs become the majority?

Hehe, I wish some home users would realize they don't need 64bit number-crunching machines to watch videos on Youtube or check their emails....anyway
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: saulgoode on January 07, 2008, 04:42:58 pm
Going back a couple of pages...

We think that this is a good idea.

To move foreward with this we will need to have a package list to start from.
The list of packages on the ISO for 5.9 is here: http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/57314
Saulgoode, if you (or anyone else) want to make an account at numsum.com I will make a new copy of this spreadsheet and you can start marking out packages to form a new smaller list.
Once this is done we can move on from there.

Great. I have perused the spreadsheet and done some preliminary investigation. I have also registered but the server which hosts my email crashed a few days ago; it is back online but my disk quotas are screwed up right now (unless I received over 2 gigabytes of Viagra and Megadik spam in the last five days). If my e-mail isn't back up in the next day or so, I will "borrow" a friend's and re-register.

If there is a developer's repo for VL 6.0, I should like to have access (read-only is fine). Or should I just pull packages I can from the 5.9 repos and grab the rest from the projects' homepages? My initial goal would be to create an extremely barebones bootable system: no X, no user apps; just the basic Vector tool chain and the libraries to support them. I have a fairly strong background with Slackware and I used to have a good grasp of VL-INIT and Kocil's original VASM (circa 2.3), but I haven't really kept up with the newer facilities such as VL-HOT, the new installer, or the updated VASM.



Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: uelsk8s on January 07, 2008, 05:04:47 pm
If there is a developer's repo for VL 6.0, I should like to have access (read-only is fine). Or should I just pull packages I can from the 5.9 repos and grab the rest from the projects' homepages? My initial goal would be to create an extremely barebones bootable system: no X, no user apps; just the basic Vector tool chain and the libraries to support them. I have a fairly strong background with Slackware and I used to have a good grasp of VL-INIT and Kocil's original VASM (circa 2.3), but I haven't really kept up with the newer facilities such as VL-HOT, the new installer, or the updated VASM.
There is no developers repo, all the pacakges are in the 5.9 repo.
keep in mind if you need to build something thats not already in the 5.9 repo we need source and buildscript with it.
I would reccomend using the 5.9 gold ISO to install just the base required packages and start from that.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: gacl on January 07, 2008, 05:17:30 pm
Well, the live CD has its uses. Like when i make copies for friends to show them that Linux is not just a command line. . . and show them Beryl. Also, when i break my system i need a way to recover, and i'm already familiar with Vector, in case i need to modify configuration files and the like ( . . . maybe we could have more recovery/repair tools in the live CD? ).

I was complaining about Xfce in another post, but really, is not that bad. I hadn't realized that there were other choices at the login screen ( . . . maybe they should be more visible? not as a pull down menu? ).

Gus
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 07, 2008, 05:23:40 pm
Quote from: hanumizzle
Can't public release of a 64-bit distro wait until 64-bit CPUs become the majority?

Hehe, I wish some home users would realize they don't need 64bit number-crunching machines to watch videos on Youtube or check their emails....anyway

I imagine that 64-bit machines will eventually become the norm, as programmers figure out more lavish and occasionally useful ways to spend cycles / memory. Remember that technology experts used to say 32-bit processors and addressing space were way too much. Well, with Windows Vi$ta apparently eating up something like 512 MB RAM when it sits there idle, and plenty of incredibly bloated, frivolous programs on all operating systems (Linux shares plenty of blame there), 4 GB max RAM is beginning to seem a little tight. Personally, I wonder why the intermediate measure of 32-bit processors with 64-bit addressing spaces wasn't introduced as it was in an earlier era, with 16-bit processors and 32-bit memory addressing. That would have helped a lot.

In the meantime, though, launching a 64-bit version is a bit like trying to ensure complete IPv6 compliance. JMO.

saulgoode, my new version of VASM was an epic fail.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nightflier on January 07, 2008, 05:26:29 pm
I am disappointed to hear that SOHO may disappear. SOHO 5.0 was the reason why I ended my distro-hopping. I purchased it as well as 5.1. When 5.8 came out I bought some other merchandise from the store.

I have experimented with adding KDE to Standard, but have never produced as good a product as the one put together by more capable people. It seems to me that SOHO is more than just an add-on, it is a refinement of Std. Usually, by the time SOHO appears, several issues/bugs in Std. are discovered and fixed. I do install and test the Standard releases, trying to be of some help, but my main desktop remains the stable SOHO.

So did I get this right, KDE will become part of the Deluxe package? Or will there be an actual SOHO disc that I can purchase?
Title: Re: Something has to go.
Post by: Dweeberkitty on January 07, 2008, 05:40:17 pm
Looks like we'll end up with a lot of different versions:

VL "light?"
VL standard
VL standard Live
VL64 standard
VL SOHO
VL SOHO Live
VL64 SOHO
(several others have been suggested in the past)

So, the question is: Do you think there is enough manpower to test and release all of these? I don't think so, perhaps we should scratch some of these, and focus on a few 'core' products (IMO these should be VL standard and SOHO). All the rest is nice and funny, but just niches. We can't and shouldn't make a distro for every niche.

I have to agree. When there are too many choices, people are almost always deterred. They can be confusing to the person looking at VL as a possible distro and they may be overwhelmed with the choices and leave. Studies have shown this to be true. For example, in one study, people shopping in Draeger's, a high-end supermarket in Stanford, Calif., encountered a tasting booth displaying exotic jams. In one case, they were offered six different jams to taste and in another a selection of 24. Once they'd tasted the jams they were given $1 off coupons for the spreads. Thirty percent of those offered a choice of six jams to taste purchased a jar, while only 3 percent of those offered a choice of 24 jams bought any. Apparently, confronting 24 jams is just too much for most people.

Another study found that students were more likely to write a short essay for extra credit if they could choose among six topics rather than 30. Clearly, fewer choices can be key to attracting more customers or users. Microsoft for example has experienced great success in selling Windows XP Home and Windows XP Professional. Those were the two choices that the average joe saw. However, with the coming of Vista and the many versions, they have not had as much success, partly to buggy software but also I think, to the fact that are too many choices. This is also a predominate problem in the Linux market today.

Here is a link to the research paper showing that too many choices can be confusing and produce less results: http://www.columbia.edu/~ss957/whenchoice.html

I believe that to draw users instead of repelling them, we must strip VL down to just a few choices. Sure we can have other versions and options laying around, but the main ones that we promote on the website, try to sell and advertise for should be the two or three flavors, thus making it simple for the average user (which makes up the majority of the market) to choose.

I have experimented with adding KDE to Standard, but have never produced as good a product as the one put together by more capable people. It seems to me that SOHO is more than just an add-on, it is a refinement of Std. Usually, by the time SOHO appears, several issues/bugs in Std. are discovered and fixed. I do install and test the Standard releases, trying to be of some help, but my main desktop remains the stable SOHO.

I agree. I think there is a need for a customized KDE version of VL. Just installing KDE on STD doesn't cut it and the result are always less satisfying than having a polished, fixed up, cleaned up, custom KDE version of VL. Please don't do away with that. A vanilla install of KDE is not even close to the sweet product called SOHO. Doing away with that seems to be a mistake.
Title: Re: Something has to go.
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 07, 2008, 07:54:33 pm
I have to agree. When there are too many choices, people are almost always deterred. They can be confusing to the person looking at VL as a possible distro and they may be overwhelmed with the choices and leave. Studies have shown this to be true. For example, in one study, people shopping in Draeger's, a high-end supermarket in Stanford, Calif., encountered a tasting booth displaying exotic jams. In one case, they were offered six different jams to taste and in another a selection of 24. Once they'd tasted the jams they were given $1 off coupons for the spreads. Thirty percent of those offered a choice of six jams to taste purchased a jar, while only 3 percent of those offered a choice of 24 jams bought any. Apparently, confronting 24 jams is just too much for most people. 

A supermarket called Draugr's that sells two dozen kinds of jams? I'm there, dude!
Title: Re: Something has to go.
Post by: Masta on January 07, 2008, 09:23:22 pm
A supermarket called Draugr's that sells two dozen kinds of jams? I'm there, dude!

Will you please slow down? You're going to get us into a jam   ;D
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Witek Mozga on January 08, 2008, 02:48:00 am
We have to make the most people possible to give VL a try. Distro-hoppers or not.

First of all we have to answer the qusetion what is the aim of making a distro. Is it the technical challenge and ego that drives the project and devs couldn't care less if their app/OS dominates the world as stated by easuter or maybe we want to make the most people possible to use VL? Both ways are OK, but they are mutually exclusive IMHO.

Who is Vector addressed to? a narrow group of users? Newbies? Geeks? or maybe not users are important but older hardware? If we know the answers we can choose direction to go. You cannot please everyone and you shoudn`t.

If you want to make a distro for geeks or older hardware then make minimal barebones.

If you want to address average user then there is no other way than SOHO or maybe Deluxe. Doing something in beetween will not attract average MSwindows users (maybe you don`t want them, that`s OK).


Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: rbistolfi on January 08, 2008, 08:36:57 am
Not really, Witek. That is an assumption. Why cant you do a distro technically good, and expect people actually using it?. It's just no true. Note I said "give vl a try"; i.e. we want the chance to convince people to use vl. It was an argument in favor of the live-cd. If people dont look at vl, they will never use it. VL have to be noticed, so we have a chance to gain users. If AFTER giving vl a try they say 'is too techie' or something, well, I am affraid we cant do too much.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 08, 2008, 09:30:49 am
Who is Vector addressed to? a narrow group of users? Newbies? Geeks? or maybe not users are important but older hardware? If we know the answers we can choose direction to go. You cannot please everyone and you shoudn`t.

It seems that most of our new users are inexperienced, but willing to learn. I hope we continue to aim for that audience.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 08, 2008, 10:00:23 am
When we invite a visitor on our site to give VL a try, I think we have an obligation to provide this visitor a means to try VL with no commitment of money or material resources. Visitor shouldn't have to buy a hard drive to install VL, or dedicate a spare computer to VL, or even risk borking the OS on his working computer with a dual boot, just to try out VL. This is good reason to have at least one VL version in liveCD form, that is, to demonstrate VL without cost or risk. If we choose just one version for the liveCD, it almost certainly should be Standard because Std will work on the most computers, particularly low-end machines, to give the full effect of a VL install.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 08, 2008, 10:24:36 am
I guess I agree.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: no2thesame on January 08, 2008, 11:00:40 pm
Initially I was sorry to hear that SOHO would be leaving the building. Not only is it the reason I stopped distro--hopping nearly 3 years ago but, I think this is the where Vector stands out from the crowd: it is stable, business-friendly (it just works) and has the software I like to use. All in a small, unobtrusive distro.

On reflection though, it IS a good business move, I buy a polished Deluxe version, at most twice a year, and still get what I need to keep my home-office and family happy and regularly support the Vector team as well.

I vote we go with three Vector versions:
Light
Standard
Deluxe (with a similar feel to what we now call SOHO)
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on January 08, 2008, 11:11:30 pm
Warning: some, perhaps many will feel disenfranchised by the loss of SOHO.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Rusty Guy on January 09, 2008, 07:46:24 am
Warning: some, perhaps many will feel disenfranchised by the loss of SOHO.

My .02. There are several reasons why I'm keeping an eye on VL. One is the SOHO idea. I think I could live with no SOHO version - provided that some of us in the adult educ/non-profit community could do a remaster for our specific purposes. This has been discussed before but not in The Lounge.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: uelsk8s on January 09, 2008, 08:08:25 am
some comments to hopefully ease concerns.

Nothing I say is final, and as you may have noticed nothing is final around here until the ISO is burned :)

5.9 will have its SOHO, but at this point it probably will not be free for everyone.

after 5.9 our idea is to combine deluxe and SOHO most likely call it SOHO and have an integrated SOHO bulk instead of just the KDE packages that currently come with Deluxe. so that way with deluxe you would have the option to install STD or SOHO or both from the purchased disks.

Thanks for everything,
Uelsk8s
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nightflier on January 09, 2008, 09:54:31 am
Well, I have been thinking about this and just logged on to post my suggestion. Looks like some of my opinions harmonize with uelsk8s' post above:

Three 32 bit versions:
- A light and fast VL Std. For stand-alone computers and those who like to take manual control. Text installer, minimal default services and light window manager. Good for lower powered machines. Small ISO. Free download.

- A Live version of Std. Intended as a demo or power tool. No hard drive installer. Free download.

- VL SOHO/Deluxe. Big package with all goodies (but still fast, please!). KDE default. Maybe DVD ISO. Available for purchase.

As far as 64-bit versions go, that is undoubtedly the future, and in the future I think most computers will have the power to run SOHO. That could be the only 64 bit version needed.

Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 09, 2008, 10:09:07 am
Quote
A Live version of Std. Intended as a demo or power tool. No hard drive installer. Free download.

Why would we not have a hard drive installer on the LiveCD? That's like fishing without a hook in the bait. If we get a prospect to try the live CD, he should be able install from there. What, he's gotta download and burn another CD just to install VL?

Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: nightflier on January 09, 2008, 10:22:36 am
Why would we not have a hard drive installer on the LiveCD?

Because it adds complexity, confusion and support burden. Instead of complementing Std, it would compete with it.

If Live is installable, we might as well drop Std.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: uelsk8s on January 09, 2008, 10:31:39 am
the problem right now is that we are getting very different results from the live installer on different hardware.
It works perfectly on my test machines, but they have lots of ram and fast cdrom drives.
it also works well in a VM with as low as 64mb mem but I still have the fast cdrom.

Hopefully we can figure out a way to make it work everywhere.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: M0E-lnx on January 09, 2008, 10:50:22 am
I think we do need the live installer. It simply would not make sense to force users to download two images to get a working install
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Darin on January 12, 2008, 05:09:22 pm
I am working on what you guys are talking about...I have a test iso done but it is sitting at 454mb and I can trim some more out of it and I am using flux.


Here is a link running live with a test version:

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1imageyw9.gif
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: Darin on January 13, 2008, 12:00:41 am
Now to explain my reasons to pursue the endeavor, I made the SupGamer VL edition and I want a small base to pass along between testers without the games or drivers. I do have a trimmed down version stated above and I will be taking it down further in the next week to slim it down. We will be doing different graphics for the iso as well testing on some older equipment. The slowest machine I have is a xp1500 with 1gb of ram and the iso runs as good on it as it does my 3700 athlon with 1gb of ram so speed is there. I also found some additional speed when doing the supergamer vl edition that I planned on using for the update to it but I will add it into this to speed up really slow machines for the bootup. Now for the big questions. What programs are to be included or not included? Right now I have Fluxbox, Opera for the browser and use xfe for the file manager and abiword as well as xine for the multimedia player. For my purposes I would take out all of them and just have dillo but since I am already pretty close to what is being proped here and I am doing this for our project I can go ahead and release an iso based upon these criteria choices that have been proposed. I do need suggestions for apps so I can trim as much out before gutting it for my purpose
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: PSimon23 on April 10, 2012, 04:55:00 am
Similar subject was being discussed at yahoo answers last week. I can post the link if needed.
Title: Re: Crazy idea / suggestion
Post by: M0E-lnx on April 10, 2012, 11:22:03 am
This is an old thread, and was the origin of what we now know as "Vectorlinux Light"