VectorLinux

Cooking up the Treats => General Development => Topic started by: uelsk8s on January 08, 2008, 09:59:37 am

Title: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on January 08, 2008, 09:59:37 am
here is the new package list: http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/58651
It is a copy of the 5.9 packages list. for now we will mark the BG of the packages to be removed in red, then once we are sure it should be removed it will be deleted from the spreadsheet.
I am putting Saulgoode as the lead of this project, as long as there are no objections.
If you want to help with this please post here and let us know what you are wiling to do.
If you want access to edit the spreadsheet you will need to register at numsum.com and PM me your email address.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: stoichyu on January 09, 2008, 04:57:41 am
Willing to test!!! :D Have been waiting for a small vector to customize for a while now. Tried to make one before but got lazy ;D
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: saulgoode on January 09, 2008, 06:54:22 pm
I finally got my website and e-mail working (which was previously preventing my registering at numsum) and am now successfully registered.

The ideal approach would be to have an extremely minimal base (no X, no Apps, no unneeded Libs) which would provide the bare essentials to get a terminal-only Vector system installed; and then any additional packages would need the requisite slack-depends generated (and tested). This may be unreasonable from a practical standpoint though.

The more pragmatic approach might be to remove packages from Standard (noting which packages are removed so slack-depends can later be created) until the appropriate VL-LIGHT package set is achieved. While this entails a lot less initial effort, I am thinking that the dependency resolution of that larger set of packages might cause more confusion and (and less reliability) in the long run.

I think I shall take a stab at the first approach to see how it works out. I have previously done similarly with SW 10, generating a fairly complete 6M install system (and someone on LQ.org has done the same with SW 12). This would just be an interim step, I am not suggesting that VL-LIGHT should exclude X11.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Darin on January 09, 2008, 07:14:05 pm
I will be finishing a version this weekend uelsk8s for a base...I am trying to get ahold of the E17 packages and take out xfce and replace with E17 to be a completely different version...I might do 2 versions for testing...
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Darin on January 12, 2008, 11:08:05 am
ok there is an iso but the size is not what we expected with a fully functional desktop..the iso is 454mb in size with flux on it as well as most everything else so there is room to cut...I do think we are going to need different graphics and at this point I think the name is going to be V-Locity but more suggestions are welcomed
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Lyn on January 13, 2008, 02:37:10 am
How low resource for hardware do you want to go?  Have an old P1 Dell Optiplex I can test on.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Freeman on January 13, 2008, 08:22:43 am
I sam Moe-Inx wanted to remove X. I thing it would be nice if we could keep X.. Basic GUI for a novice user would be nice don't you think?
-Just a thought off course :)
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on January 14, 2008, 02:55:07 pm
Can we come to a consensus on objectives re VL-LIGHT. Is it for a small install footprint? Is it for customizing? We haven't really defined its purpose. So I suggest we arrive at some consensus on what it will do, what it's for. Personally, I don't really want a barebones, customizable OS. I would prefer a pared down, fully functional OS for limited hardware, with about one third (to one half) of VL Standard's footprint. Naturally, such a pared down OS can be customized, but still I think it should stand on its own without further modification, with basic apps for everyday usage.

5 Things Wrong With Microsoft Authorized Refurbisher Program (MAR)
http://www.osweekly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2730&Itemid=449
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: newt on January 14, 2008, 03:32:54 pm
Can we come to a consensus on objectives re VL-LIGHT. Is it for a small install footprint? Is it for customizing? We haven't really defined its purpose. So I suggest we arrive at some consensus on what it will do, what it's for.
That's a very good point (unless, of course, this has already been done somewhere else).

My impressions from the other thread was that VL would have the 3 basic versions: Core, Standard, SOHO.  I would define those as follows: (I'm no dev so this is all theorhetical based on imaginary dreaming since I don't know what drives development ;D)

Standard being exactly what it is: a fully-functioning, light-weight release with near-full X implementation centering around supporting "older" hardware with limited resources. Light on the resources.  What does "older" mean? I don't know :shrug:

SOHO (aka Deluxe): a fully-functioning, heavy-weight release (relatively speaking) with full X implementation centering around supporting "older" hardware with more-capable resources.  Moderate on the resources.  What does "older" mean? I don't know :shrug:

...last, and certainly not least....

Core: a fully-functioning, very-light-weight CLI release (i.e. no X implementation) centering around creating the engine that drives Standard and SOHO/Deluxe (perhaps, by definition, this will REQUIRE including X, but perhaps not). No desktop environment or window managers included.  Very light on the resources.  Not intended for use by 95+% of users; only for the hard-core; only for devs; only for capable hackers; only for those that love white text on a black background.

Core becomes the foundation for the release.  The house that gets built on top can be any number of levels or shapes (standard, soho, deluxe, live, server, etc...).
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on January 14, 2008, 03:33:44 pm
Can we come to a consensus on objectives re VL-LIGHT. Is it for a small install footprint? Is it for customizing? We haven't really defined its purpose. So I suggest we arrive at some consensus on what it will do, what it's for.
That was part of my intention for starting this thread. There is little need IMO for a parred down version of VL if it is not optimized for Something.
It has been shown that you can take 5.9-STD and customize it to run on as little as 64mb ram.
If the only reason is for a smaller download  I say spend the money and order a cd.
If  VL-LIGHT is to go ahead I say we define it for lower spec machines put a ck-kernel in, get rid of hal and make it fly on those systems.
I have setup a poll here: http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5302.0
let us know your opinion

Uelsk8s
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on January 26, 2008, 11:22:16 am
I am actually involved in a similar project, albeit a separate distro with some things stolen from VL.  We'd gladly dump our project and go with VL-Light if it meets our needs.

Footprint:  shoot for 210MB or less.  That's a 3"/5cm mini-CD.  That would make VL-Light a pocket distro like GoblinX Mini, NimbleX, Slax, Mustang Linux, TinyMe, etc...  You can get a large part of the rest of the way there by removing the man pages, documentation, and i18n/i10n from the packages and offering them as separate packages in the light repository.  You'd be amazed at how much smaller your packages will become.   Take a look at these distros and the apps they offer to see just how much you can cram into 210MB.  Installed size should be <1.0GB.

RAM:  I can make VL 5.9 run neatly in 32MB of RAM.  I've done it.  Really.  Abiword and gnumeric run fine.  So does dillo.  Opera is just about OK.  GUI text editors are happy as clams as is Bluefish.  xv works for photo editing.  Xfe is my file editor on the 32MB system.  At 64MB Opera is decent and GIMP is just about usable.  Some multimedia stuff can just about work at 64MB of RAM.  SIAG Office is smaller than AbiWord/Gnumeric and is lightning fast even at 32MB of RAM but it lacks functionality.  I'm packaging it for 5.9 anyway.

Installer:  Make sure hosted installs (the vinstall scripts) stay on the iso.  Older and green hardware may not have a bootable CD-ROM drive. 

Wireless works but wifi-radar doesn't.  OK, it does if you don't mind waiting half an hour for it to react.  VL-wifi is the correct answer here.

E17 and Xfce are both really bad ideas at 64MB and unusable at 32MB.  Fluxbox is a bit poky, too, and is noticeably slow at 32MB.  Good choices:  JWM, PekWM with fbpanel, aewm++ with fbpanel, windowmaker, afterstep.  If you go minimal you can use Esetroot to put the background in when launched.  I'd offer two choices, maybe three.  Fluxbox is the heaviest one I'd even consider if this was my project, which it isn't.

Yes, trim /usr/share/wallpapers down to half it's current size or less.  Make the rest (and more pretty wallpapers like the ones that come with fluxbox and Xfce) an optional package in the repository.

Things I'd like to see:  something like VL-Hot that works with a minimalistic window manager.  That would be unique and very cool.  I'd also like to see a copy2ram option like the linux-live scripts even on a conventional install.

....Oh, and yeah, I'm volunteering to help.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on January 26, 2008, 11:25:43 am
Here's an additional package I'd suggest:  claws-mail  Good choice for lightweight mail client.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Joe1962 on January 26, 2008, 11:39:32 am
Things I'd like to see:  something like VL-Hot that works with a minimalistic window manager.  That would be unique and very cool.
Interesting, I gave quite a bit of thought to this a while back, but never figured out the best way to implement this. Would a floating tool-window with the mounted drives/partitions work? Any other ideas?
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on January 26, 2008, 11:49:34 am
Things I'd like to see:  something like VL-Hot that works with a minimalistic window manager.  That would be unique and very cool.
Interesting, I gave quite a bit of thought to this a while back, but never figured out the best way to implement this. Would a floating tool-window with the mounted drives/partitions work? Any other ideas?


That would certainly work.  A desktop icon which would open into a mount/umount tool would also work. 

You know what else would be cool?  Something like embedding it into fbpanel.  Of course, that wouldn't work well with window managers that already have their own panel like fluxbox or jwm.  Of course, if you're feeling really ambitious you embed it just into the panels used in VL-Light.

Nobody has done anything like this so I expect it would be picked up by other small/lightweight distros and be quite popular within that niche.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 26, 2008, 12:10:34 pm
In VL Light Alpha 1.6, using JWM and pcmanfm to manage the desktop, vl-hot icons pop up on the desktop when a device is inserted. The unmount one does work, but the other launcher gives error "Command not found".

You can navigate to the mount point and access it, so I bet it's just a matter of modifying vl-hot's desktop launcher to use pcmanfm to open the drive.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on January 26, 2008, 12:20:29 pm
In VL Light Alpha 1.6, using JWM and pcmanfm to manage the desktop, vl-hot icons pop up on the desktop when a device is inserted. The unmount one does work, but the other launcher gives error "Command not found".

You can navigate to the mount point and access it, so I bet it's just a matter of modifying vl-hot's desktop launcher to use pcmanfm to open the drive.

Very nice.  JWM is an excellent lightweight wm choice in any case.  Where is this alpha of which you speak?  I'd like to download it.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 26, 2008, 01:25:33 pm
Uelsk8s has been cranking out alphas quickly lately. Latest is:
http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/Uelsk8s/iso-test/VL5.9-Light-A1.6.iso
I wouldn't be surprised if there was another version this weekend.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on January 26, 2008, 01:35:16 pm
Uelsk8s has been cranking out alphas quickly lately. Latest is:
http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/Uelsk8s/iso-test/VL5.9-Light-A1.6.iso
I wouldn't be surprised if there was another version this weekend.

Thanks!  eauster also pointed me to it in another thread.  Download in progress....
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: lagagnon on January 26, 2008, 04:32:36 pm
My notes on the A1.6 release:

1) abiword error: libgnomeprintui-2.2-so.2 does not exist
2) jwm: Start Run ... does not work - and its because fbrun is not installed.
3) at login page "Start Fluxbox" does not work, because fluxbox not installed.
4) xfe file manager: top of its window lies above the screen, so cannot easily close, minimize or expand it
5) mc in xterm is almost unreadable. Something messed up with the colours or xterm settings? When I use "xterm -rv" it works just fine!
6) the normal user does not have permission to use "locate". That works in VL5.9 -

So far so good. Only 34.1MB used RAM with xterm at first boot. Tht's great for low end machines. About 40% of what xfce uses in VL5.9
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: easuter on January 26, 2008, 04:44:11 pm
Quote
1) abiword error: libgnomeprintui-2.2-so.2 does not exist

Fixable with

Code: [Select]
slapt-get --install libgnomeprint libgnomeprintui
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 26, 2008, 04:55:40 pm
xfe title bar out of reach: right-click the panel entry for it, select move and drag it down. Next launch it will be on screen.

mc: this color issue goes way back. My workaround is rm -rf ~/.mc When launched, mc creates a new one and uses standard colors.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: lagagnon on January 27, 2008, 06:27:35 pm
My second round of notes re release A1.6:

-there are a lot of installed packages for which there are no jwm menu entries. These include:

adie, fox calculator, gftp, gnumeric, mplayer, xine, gucharmap, vasmcc, nmapfe.

There may well be others.

BTW do we intend to trim more fat or leave it at 3XX MB? For instance, there are things in there, only two I noticed quickly that could go: gphoto2 (there is no GUI digital camera program to go with it??), the info system, amongst other stuff.But it is a lot of work to go through eall the packages as well as /usr/bin /usr/sbin etc....

Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on January 27, 2008, 09:29:15 pm
I think we are done trimming fat. I would like to get the packages into the menu at this point so we can test them and see what is missing.
I would like to get gtkam in there also.

A1.7 is up here: http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/Uelsk8s/iso-test/VL5.9-Light-A1.7.iso

Thanks,
Uelsk8s
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 28, 2008, 05:51:43 am
A1.7: I'm working on the menu.

Had to install pcmanfm from the CD afterwards. I left it checked during install and gslapt showed it as installed but I could not find it on the drive.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 28, 2008, 11:21:18 am
mplayer will not launch, missing libSDL-1.2.so.0
installed package SDL_net
now missing libopenal.so.0
installed package openal
works now
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 28, 2008, 11:31:12 am
New config file for JWM: Paste the following content into your ~/.jwmrc file and restart JWM.

Code: [Select]
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!-- This file controls the behavior of JWM. Modified by nightflier for Vector Linux. Edit with care. -->

<JWM>

    <!-- The root menu, if this is undefined you will not get a menu. -->
   <!-- Additional RootMenu attributes: onroot, labeled, label -->
   <RootMenu height="20">
      <!-- Addititional Menu attributes: height, labeled -->
      <Program label=" Run.. " icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/gnome-run.png">fbrun</Program>
      <Program label=" Terminal" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/terminal.png">xterm</Program>
      <Program label=" XFE File Manager" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/filesystems/folder.png">xfe</Program>
      <Program label=" PCMan File Manager" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/file-manager.png">pcmanfm</Program>
      <Program label=" Web Browser" icon="/usr/share/icons/opera.png">opera</Program>
      <Program label=" Text Editor" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/gedit.png">xfw</Program>
      <Separator/>
      <Menu label="Office" icon="">
<Program label=" Abiword Word Processor" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/abiword.png">/usr/bin/abiword</Program>
<Program label=" Gnumeric Spreadsheet" icon="/usr/share/pixmaps/gnome-gnumeric.png">/usr/bin/gnumeric</Program>
<Program label=" Adie Text Editor" icon="/usr/share/pixmaps/fox-adie.png">/usr/bin/adie</Program>
      </Menu>
      <Menu label="Multimedia" icon="">
         <Program label=" XMMS Audio Player" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/mimetypes/sound.png">xmms</Program>         
         <Program label=" XINE Media Player" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/xine.png">xine</Program>         
         <Program label=" ALSA Sound Mixer" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/kmix.png">xterm -bg black -fg white alsamixer</Program>         
         <Program label=" x264 Video Encoder" icon="/usr/share/icons/video.png">x264_gtk_encode</Program>
      </Menu>
      <Menu label="Graphics" icon="">
         <Program label=" Mtpaint Paint Program" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/looknfeel.png">mtpaint</Program>
      </Menu>
      <Menu label="Utilities" icon="">
<Program label=" FOX Calculator" icon="/usr/share/pixmaps/fox-calc.png">/usr/bin/calculator</Program>
         <Program label=" Shutterbug Screen Capture" icon="/usr/share/pixmaps/fox-shutterbug.png">shutterbug</Program>
         <Program label=" PathFinder File Explorer" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/gnome-folder.png">PathFinder</Program>
         <Program label=" Xclock Desktop Clock" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/clock.png">xclock</Program>
         <Program label=" Xmag Magnifier" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/gnome-searchtool.png">xmag</Program>
         <Program label=" Xkill Process Terminator" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/panel-force-quit.png">xkill</Program>
      </Menu>
      <Menu label="Games" icon="">
             <Program label=" Xgalaga" icon="/usr/share/icons/xgalaga.png">xgalaga</Program>
           </Menu>
      <Menu icon="" label="Network">
         <Program label=" Opera Web Browser" icon="/usr/share/icons/opera.png">opera</Program>
         <Program label=" Dillo Web Browser" icon="/usr/share/icons/dillo.png">dillo</Program>
<Program label=" Pidgin Instant Messenger" icon="/usr/share/icons/pidgin.png">pidgin</Program>
         <Program label=" Gftp FTP Client" icon="/usr/share/pixmaps/gftp.png">/usr/bin/gftp</Program>
         <Program label=" VLSamba Network Mounter" icon="/usr/share/icons/samba.png">/sbin/vlsmbmnt</Program>
<Program label=" Nmapfe Security Scanner" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/gnome-searchtool.png">nmapfe</Program>
      </Menu>
      <Menu label="System" icon="">
<Program label=" Gslapt Package Manager" icon="/usr/share/icons/gslapt.png">/sbin/vsuper "/usr/sbin/gslapt"</Program>
      <Program label=" VASMCC System Administration" icon="/usr/share/icons/vasm.png">/sbin/vsuper "vasmCC"</Program>
      <Program label=" VASM System Administration" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/gnome-settings.png">/sbin/vasm</Program>
<Program label=" Vleasytables Firewall" icon="/usr/share/icons/cop.png">/sbin/vsuper "vleasytables"</Program>
         <Program label=" Htop Process Viewer" icon="/usr/share/icons/htop.png">xterm -bg black -fg white htop</Program>
         <Program label=" System Profiler and Benchmark" icon="/usr/share/icons/hardware.png">hardinfo</Program>
         <Program label=" Xterm Terminal" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/terminal.png">xterm</Program>
         <Program label=" Root Terminal" icon="/usr/share/icons/Vista-Inspirate/scalable/apps/kxconfig.png">/sbin/vsuper "xterm"</Program>
         <Program label=" Edit JWM" icon="/usr/share/icons/executable.png">xfw ~/.jwmrc</Program>
       </Menu>
      <Separator/>
      <Menu label="Quit">
          <Restart label=" Restart JWM" icon="/usr/share/icons/restart.png"/>
          <Exit label=" Log Out" confirm="false" icon="/usr/share/icons/close.png"/>
          <Program label=" Reboot" icon="/usr/share/icons/reload.png">sudo /sbin/shutdown -t3 -r now</Program>
          <Program label=" Shutdown" icon="/usr/share/icons/exit.png" >sudo /sbin/shutdown -t3 -h now </Program>
      </Menu>
   </RootMenu>
   <Group>
      <Class>Pidgin</Class>
      <Option>sticky</Option>
   </Group>

   <Group>
      <Name>gkrellm2</Name>
      <Option>nolist</Option>
   </Group>

   <Group>
      <Name>rxvt</Name>
      <Option>vmax</Option>
   </Group>

   <!-- Additional tray attributes: autohide, width, border, layer, layout -->
   <Tray  x="0" y="-1" height="32">

    <!-- Additional TrayButton attribute: label -->
        <TrayButton label="Start" icon="/usr/share/icons/ROX-nuvola/apps/vector.png">root:1</TrayButton>

      <TrayButton label="" icon="/usr/share/icons/desktop.png">showdesktop</TrayButton>


      <!-- Additional Pager attributes; width, height -->
      <Pager/>

      <!-- Additional TaskList attribute: maxwidth -->
      <TaskList/>

      <Dock/>

      <!-- Additional Swallow attribute: height -->
      <Swallow name="xload" width="64">
         xload -nolabel -bg black -fg red -hl white
      </Swallow>

      <Clock>xclock</Clock>

   </Tray>

   <!-- Visual Styles -->

   <WindowStyle>

      <Font>FreeSans-9:bold</Font>
      <Width>4</Width>
      <Height>20</Height>

      <Active>
         <Text>white</Text>
         <Title>#70849d:#2e3a67</Title>
         <Corner>white</Corner>
         <Outline>black</Outline>
      </Active>

      <Inactive>
         <Text>#aaaaaa</Text>
         <Title>#808488:#303438</Title>
         <Corner>#aaaaaa</Corner>
         <Outline>black</Outline>
      </Inactive>

   </WindowStyle>

   <TaskListStyle>
      <Font>FreeSans-12</Font>
      <ActiveForeground>black</ActiveForeground>
      <ActiveBackground>gray90:gray70</ActiveBackground>
      <Foreground>black</Foreground>
      <Background>gray70:gray90</Background>
   </TaskListStyle>

   <!-- Additional TrayStyle attribute: insert -->
   <TrayStyle>
      <Font>FreeSans-12</Font>
      <Background>gray90</Background>
      <Foreground>black</Foreground>
   </TrayStyle>

   <PagerStyle>
      <Outline>black</Outline>
      <Foreground>gray90</Foreground>
      <Background>#808488</Background>
      <ActiveForeground>#70849d</ActiveForeground>
      <ActiveBackground>#2e3a67</ActiveBackground>
   </PagerStyle>

   <MenuStyle>
      <Font>FreeSans-10</Font>
      <Foreground>black</Foreground>
      <Background>gray90</Background>
      <ActiveForeground>white</ActiveForeground>
      <ActiveBackground>#70849d:#2e3a67</ActiveBackground>
   </MenuStyle>

   <PopupStyle>
      <Font>FreeSans-10</Font>
      <Outline>black</Outline>
      <Foreground>black</Foreground>
      <Background>yellow</Background>
   </PopupStyle>

   <IconPath>/usr/share/pixmaps</IconPath>

   <StartupCommand>
      if test x"$DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS" = x""; then
         dbuslaunch=`which dbus-launch`
         if test x"$dbuslaunch" != x"" -a x"$dbuslaunch" != x"no"; then
            eval `$dbuslaunch --sh-syntax --exit-with-session`
         fi
      fi
      pcmanfm
   </StartupCommand>

   <!-- Virtual Desktops -->
   <!-- Desktop tags can be contained within Desktops for desktop names. -->
   <Desktops count="2">
   </Desktops>

   <!-- Double click speed (in milliseconds) -->
   <DoubleClickSpeed>400</DoubleClickSpeed>

   <!-- Double click delta (in pixels) -->
   <DoubleClickDelta>2</DoubleClickDelta>

   <!-- The focus model (sloppy or click) -->
   <FocusModel>click</FocusModel>

   <!-- The snap mode (none, screen, or border) -->
   <SnapMode distance="10">border</SnapMode>

   <!-- The move mode (outline or opaque) -->
   <MoveMode>opaque</MoveMode>

   <!-- The resize mode (outline or opaque) -->
   <ResizeMode>opaque</ResizeMode>

   <!-- Key bindings -->
   <Key key="Up">up</Key>
   <Key key="Down">down</Key>
   <Key key="Right">right</Key>
   <Key key="Left">left</Key>
   <Key key="h">left</Key>
   <Key key="j">down</Key>
   <Key key="k">up</Key>
   <Key key="l">right</Key>
   <Key key="Return">select</Key>
   <Key key="Escape">escape</Key>

   <Key mask="A" key="Tab">nextstacked</Key>
   <Key mask="A" key="F4">close</Key>
   <Key mask="A" key="#">desktop#</Key>
   <Key mask="A" key="F1">root:1</Key>
   <Key mask="A" key="F2">window</Key>

</JWM>

With this configuration, it will load pcmanfm (install it from the CD). Select Edit > Preferences > Desktop and set your desktop options. If you don't want it, search for "pcmanfm" in .jwmrc and remove it or replace with "idesk"

Edited Jan 29, added PathFinder.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Joe1962 on January 28, 2008, 02:24:27 pm
In VL Light Alpha 1.6, using JWM and pcmanfm to manage the desktop, vl-hot icons pop up on the desktop when a device is inserted. The unmount one does work, but the other launcher gives error "Command not found".

You can navigate to the mount point and access it, so I bet it's just a matter of modifying vl-hot's desktop launcher to use pcmanfm to open the drive.

The desktop icon is of type "Link", with a URL like: "file:///mnt/vl-hot/sda/vol1", so you probably just need to define pcmanfm as the handler for this URL type.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on January 28, 2008, 02:33:43 pm
In VL Light Alpha 1.6, using JWM and pcmanfm to manage the desktop, vl-hot icons pop up on the desktop when a device is inserted. The unmount one does work, but the other launcher gives error "Command not found".

You can navigate to the mount point and access it, so I bet it's just a matter of modifying vl-hot's desktop launcher to use pcmanfm to open the drive.

The desktop icon is of type "Link", with a URL like: "file:///mnt/vl-hot/sda/vol1", so you probably just need to define pcmanfm as the handler for this URL type.
I couldnt find a way to define that so I made a small change to /lib/udev/vl-hot_functions
here is the changed file:
Code: [Select]
#!/bin/bash
#
# (c) Vector Linux, 2005
# Part of VL-Hot by Joe1962
# Licensed under the GPL v2
#
# vl-hot release 1.0.4
#


#**************************************************************************
# DECLARES and ASSIGNS:
#**************************************************************************

# Paths to programs:
#DISKTYPE=/usr/local/bin/disktype
#DISKTYPE=/usr/bin/disktype
DISKTYPE=disktype
SGMAP=sg_map
FDISK=/sbin/fdisk
SUDO=/usr/bin/sudo
LOCKFILE=/usr/bin/lockfile

# VL-Hot paths:
VAR_DIR=/var/run
HOTLINKS_PATH="/dev/vl-hot"

# Some necessary names:
DESKTOPDIR="Desktop"

# Mount options:
USB_USER=root
USB_GROUP=users
USB_UMASK=0111
USB_DMASK=0000

# Unmount options:
#UMOUNT_OPTIONS="-lf"
UMOUNT_OPTIONS="-f"

# Verbosity:
LOG_POPUP_LEVEL=emerg
FACILITY=local5
DEBUG=1

# Notify stuff:
NOT_ICON=$ICON_NOTIFY

id=$(basename $0)

#**************************************************************************
# FUNCTIONS:
#**************************************************************************
function feedback {
if [ "$DEBUG = 1" ]
then
logger -t $id -p $FACILITY.info -- "$@"
fi
}

function debugMessage {
logger -t $id -p $FACILITY.debug -- "$@"
}

function errorExit {
logger -t $id -p $FACILITY.$LOG_POPUP_LEVEL -- "$@"
rm -f "$VAR_DIR/vl_hot.lock"
exit 1
}

function fnotify {
if [ -x "/usr/bin/notify-send" ]
then
USER=`who|grep :0|cut -d " " -f1`
if [ $USER != "" ]
then
exec $SUDO -u $USER /usr/bin/notify-send -u $NOT_CRIT -t $NOT_TIME -i $NOT_ICON -c $NOT_CATG "$NOT_SUMM" "$NOT_MESS" &
fi
fi
if [ $SND_ENABLE = "1" ]
then
play $NOT_SND
fi
}


#function is_excluded() {
#   for EXCLUDED in ${EXCLUDED_DEVICE[@]} ; do
#      if [[ $1 == $EXCLUDED ]]; then
#         for INCLUDED in ${INCLUDED_DEVICE[@]} ; do
#            if [[ $1 == $INCLUDED ]]; then
#        return 1
#     fi
# done
# return 0
#      fi
#   done
#   return 1
#}

function is_excluded() {
   for EXCLUDED in ${EXCLUDED_DEVICE} ; do
      if [[ $1 == $EXCLUDED ]]; then
         for INCLUDED in ${INCLUDED_DEVICE} ; do
            if [[ $1 == $INCLUDED ]]; then
         return 1
      fi
   done
   return 0
      fi
   done
   return 1
}

function chooseMountOptions {
case $FSTYPE in
Ext2)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="-o $MOUNTSYNC,user"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="ext2"
;;
Ext3)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="-o $MOUNTSYNC,user"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="ext3"
;;
ReiserFS)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="-o $MOUNTSYNC,user"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="reiserfs"
;;
NTFS)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="-o $MOUNTSYNC,uid=$USB_USER,gid=$USB_GROUP,fmask=$USB_UMASK,dmask=$USB_DMASK,user,nls=$NTFSNLS,$NTFSIO"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="ntfs"
;;
FAT12)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="-o $MOUNTSYNC,uid=$USB_USER,gid=$USB_GROUP,fmask=$USB_UMASK,dmask=$USB_DMASK,quiet,user"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="msdos"
;;
FAT16)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="-o $MOUNTSYNC,uid=$USB_USER,gid=$USB_GROUP,fmask=$USB_UMASK,dmask=$USB_DMASK,quiet,user,codepage=$FATCODEPAGE,iocharset=$FATIOCHARSET$FATUTF8"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="vfat"
;;
FAT32)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="-o $MOUNTSYNC,uid=$USB_USER,gid=$USB_GROUP,fmask=$USB_UMASK,dmask=$USB_DMASK,quiet,user,shortname=mixed,codepage=$FATCODEPAGE,iocharset=$FATIOCHARSET$FATUTF8"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="vfat"
;;
   *)
MOUNT_OPTIONS="UNKNOWN"
FSMOUNTTYPEARG="auto"
;;
esac
}

function delDesktopIcon {
local DESKTOPFILE="vl-hot-$MOUNTBASE-$VOLNAME.desktop"
local DESKTOPFILEU="vl-hot-$MOUNTBASE-$VOLNAME-U.desktop"

if [ $DIAG = "1" ]
then
feedback "Deleting desktop file $DESKTOPFILE"
fi

# Remove temp Desktop icon file from every user Desktop:
USERS=`ls /home | grep -v backupsys | grep -v ftp`
for I in $USERS; do
# Check for "Desktop" dir:
if [ -d /home/$I/Desktop ]
then
rm -f /home/$I/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILE
rm -f /home/$I/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILEU
fi
done
if [ -d /root/Desktop ]
then
rm -f /root/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILE
rm -f /root/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILEU
fi
}

function showDesktopIcon {
local DESKTOPFILE="vl-hot-$MOUNTBASE-$VOLNAME.desktop"
local DESKTOPFILEU="vl-hot-$MOUNTBASE-$VOLNAME-U.desktop"

# Remove temp Desktop icon file if left over:
if [ -f /tmp/$DESKTOPFILE ]
then
rm -f /tmp/$DESKTOPFILE
fi
if [ -f /tmp/$DESKTOPFILEU ]
then
rm -f /tmp/$DESKTOPFILEU
fi

if [ $DIAG = "1" ]
then
feedback "Showing desktop file $DESKTOPFILE"
fi

if [ -x /usr/bin/thunar ] || [ -x /usr/bin/konqueror ];then

cat > "/tmp/$DESKTOPFILE" <<-EOF
[Desktop Entry]
Version=1.0
Type=Link
URL=file://$MOUNTPOINT
#Type=Application
#Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_exec $DEVNAME $MOUNTPOINT
Name=$MOUNTBASE-$VOLNAME
GenericName=vl-hot mounted drive
Comment=This drive was mounted by vl-hot...
Encoding=UTF-8
Icon=$ICON
X-KDE-Priority=TopLevel
Actions=Unmount;UnmountSignal;UnmountKill;

[Desktop Action Unmount]
Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_umount $DEVNAME desktopicon unmount
Name=Unmount

[Desktop Action UnmountSignal]
Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_umount $DEVNAME desktopicon unmountsignal
Name=Unmount (signal processes)

[Desktop Action UnmountKill]
Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_umount $DEVNAME desktopicon unmountkill
Name=Unmount (kill processes)

EOF

else

cat > "/tmp/$DESKTOPFILE" <<-EOF
[Desktop Entry]
Version=1.0
#Type=Link
#URL=file://$MOUNTPOINT
Type=Application
Exec=/usr/bin/pcmanfm $MOUNTPOINT
Name=$MOUNTBASE-$VOLNAME
GenericName=vl-hot mounted drive
Comment=This drive was mounted by vl-hot...
Encoding=UTF-8
Icon=$ICON
X-KDE-Priority=TopLevel
Actions=Unmount;UnmountSignal;UnmountKill;

[Desktop Action Unmount]
Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_umount $DEVNAME desktopicon unmount
Name=Unmount

[Desktop Action UnmountSignal]
Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_umount $DEVNAME desktopicon unmountsignal
Name=Unmount (signal processes)

[Desktop Action UnmountKill]
Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_umount $DEVNAME desktopicon unmountkill
Name=Unmount (kill processes)

EOF

fi
# Set Desktop icon file owner and access permissions:
chown $USB_USER.$USB_GROUP $DESKTOPFILE
chmod u+w $DESKTOPFILE

cat > "/tmp/$DESKTOPFILEU" <<-EOF
[Desktop Entry]
Version=1.0
Type=Application
Name=Unmount $MOUNTBASE-$VOLNAME
Encoding=UTF-8
Exec=/lib/udev/vl-hot_umount $DEVNAME desktopicon unmount
Icon=$ICON
NotShowIn=KDE;
#OnlyShowIn=XFCE;

EOF

# Set Desktop icon file owner and access permissions:
chown $USB_USER:$USB_GROUP $DESKTOPFILEU
chmod u+w $DESKTOPFILEU

# Copy temp Desktop icon file to every user Desktop:
users=`ls /home | grep -v backupsys | grep -v ftp`
for i in $users; do
# Check for "Desktop" dir:
if [ -d /home/$i/Desktop ]
then
# Copy Desktop icon file to this user's Desktop:
cp /tmp/$DESKTOPFILE /home/$i/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILE
cp /tmp/$DESKTOPFILEU /home/$i/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILEU
fi
done
# Copy Desktop icon file to root Desktop:
if [ -d /root/Desktop ]
then
cp /tmp/$DESKTOPFILE /root/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILE
cp /tmp/$DESKTOPFILEU /root/Desktop/$DESKTOPFILEU
fi
# Remove temp Desktop icon file:
rm -f /tmp/$DESKTOPFILE
rm -f /tmp/$DESKTOPFILEU

}

Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 28, 2008, 05:27:46 pm
Hey, that's cool! VL-Hot functions like in Standard ;D

I tried substituting xfe for pcmanfm and that works equally well. I was wondering about the environment variables in .bashrc (BROWSER, AUDIO_PLAYER, EXPLORER etc). How do these work, is there a way of using those or similar to call a file manager or browser instead of hard-coding for a specific application?
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on January 28, 2008, 05:57:05 pm
try changing xfe to $EXPLORER and then set the file manager in .bashrc
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 28, 2008, 06:31:45 pm
Quote
try changing xfe to $EXPLORER and then set the file manager in .bashrc

No.. that leaves an empty space. I'm playing with grep.. "set | grep BROWSER=" yields "BROWSER=pcmanfm".. I just need a way to get rid of the BROWSER= and pass the remaning info to the next step.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on January 28, 2008, 08:00:03 pm
how bout "explorer"  it should be there
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 29, 2008, 05:37:28 am
Heh, that's what fatigue does.. I meant "EXPLORER"  :-[

Anyways, it's a new day and the coffee is starting to kick in!
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on January 29, 2008, 06:17:32 am
I know you mean EXPLORER, but there is a program called explorer. try that  :)
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on January 29, 2008, 07:22:10 am
I can't find any programs by that name. However, I came up with this syntax that works in a test script:
Code: [Select]
#!/bin/bash
EXPLORER=`set | grep EXPLORER= | sed 's/EXPLORER=//'`
echo $EXPLORER
It returns only the name of the executable, but I can't figure out how to inject it into the vl-hot script. Besides, that's Joe's baby, maybe he could audit it?

EDIT 1: I found "explorer" on my VL 5.8 box and copied it over. It works!  ;D
EDIT 2: explorer does grab the EXPLORER variable when launched from xterm. Otherwise it defaults to the first one it can find on it's list of fallback programs, where xfe is listed. If I add pcmanfm before xfe, it uses that one. By using explorer and adding all the included file managers, there is a good chance that one of them will work even if the user changes his settings.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on February 02, 2008, 12:28:35 pm
VL5.9-Light-A2.3 is ready for download here: http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/Uelsk8s/iso-test/VL5.9-Light-A2.3.iso 332mb
there are also some small deltas here: http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/Uelsk8s/iso-test/
Thanks to some heavy work done by Nightflier we have a good looking and usable system.

additions kdm, gqview, gtkam, sdl, gtk-engines, and lots of other config fixes.
In the tests we have ran kdm uses more memory that xdm, until they load the desktop, and at that point their is no difference.
I am using 40mb ram here with kdm+fluxbox with desktop icons, and vl-hot handling auto mounting.

Thanks,
Uelsk8s
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on February 02, 2008, 02:20:29 pm
Login managers:

I have also found that once logged in, there is almost no difference in memory usage between slim, xdm and kdm. I like kdm the best. Slim comes in last place. It's main selling point seems to be small installed size.

Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Witek Mozga on February 02, 2008, 04:15:53 pm
VL5.9-Light-A2.3 is ready for download here: http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/Uelsk8s/iso-test/VL5.9-Light-A2.3.iso 332mb

When I try to login to 'Default session' nothing happens. Fluxbox and JWM are OK.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: uelsk8s on February 02, 2008, 04:54:39 pm
KDM's 'Default session' is KDE since it is  not installed there it doesnt do anything.
we could disable it in the config so it doesnt show, but then it wouldnt work if anyone decided to install kde.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: lagagnon on February 02, 2008, 06:26:09 pm
Great improvements to A2.3, still some very minor things:

1) during install of veclinux.tlz the install screen says "...of 948MB". It is more than that as it stays at 99% for some time while it installs the rest. The "SETUP.CONF" file on the ISO needs size editing I think...
2) fluxbox: place same desktop background as on JWM? Also fluxbox menu needs xine and hardinfo added
3) jwm: needs gqview added to menu
4) missing a PDF viewer - xpdf seems to have been removed and I couldn't find another - maybe I'm blind...
5) I like the mount CDROM icon, maybe we should add a mount FLOPPY icon as this might be installed on older computers. I wouldn't use it and it can be done from xfe anyways, but just a thought....

Larry
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 02, 2008, 06:48:58 pm
RE: VL 5.9 Light A2.3

My hard drive is nominally 6.4 GB, with a 400MB swap and df shows 35% disk usage, so 0.35 x 6000 = 2100 MB. So I calculate the size of the installation is 2.1 GB. If there is a better way to calculate this, let me know.

Suggestion: Instead of mounting just a single drive type (CD-ROM) with the Mount icon, why not scan all the storage devices, namely, optical drives, usb device, floppy drive. Or rather, clicking the Mount icon should present user with menu and user decides which device to mount by clicking on that devices icon.

CBC Radio stream plays okay in xine (from Run) and the MPlayer plugin (click provided link). (I guess that's the MPlayer plugin, anyway.)

XFE dragbar still inaccessible.

The black and blue skins selected for gmplayer and xmms are hard to read, especially on a dark desktop background. Particularly, the hardly visible Minimize-Maximize-Quit buttons in the upper right corner: dark gray on a black background. There is a "black hat" feel to this that is a little off-putting. I prefer function, good visibility and contrast over style.* In this case I would suggest light gray navigation buttons and panels for xmms and gmplayer, like in xine. The visibility issue will be critical for newbies: to learn how to use xine and gmplayer, a newbie must be able to easily see the controls.

*Take GoblinX for instance. Now that's an unattractive motif to look at...goblins. I would try GoblinX: it's Slackware-based, it's small, it's Brazilian. Rather than exemplifying sunny Brazil, the themes are macabre and ghoulish. I wouldnt wanna look at that as a steady diet, and I would wonder about the distro's proponents. This sort of death theater is not intended for mass appeal, to say the least.

Although I recall setting up a root account during installation, I can't access a root desktop as I might with VL Std. I login as root and get the login dialog again.

Good selection of apps, so far. VL Light is lookin good.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Witek Mozga on February 03, 2008, 04:33:46 am
My hard drive is nominally 6.4 GB, with a 400MB swap and df shows 35% disk usage, so 0.35 x 6000 = 2100 MB. So I calculate the size of the installation is 2.1 GB. If there is a better way to calculate this, let me know.

1.7G on my machine, this is quite much as older machines usualy have small HD (I have a router on pentium2 with 1.6G drive for example)

I tried to analyze space used for directories
du -h (here path to mounted VLlight) | grep M | less 

I found among others:
/usr/doc takes 140M
/usr/lib/locale takes 236M
/usr/lib/qt-3.3.8/doc 25M
/usr/share/locale 106M
/usr/share/gtk-doc 40M

I guess these can be cut without harm to the system (total 547M)

Anyway I can`t help to say once again that creating a distro for older machines is an unfortunate idea as I cannot imagine anyone using such a machine for different usage as router/server. Xorg and GUI apps are useless on older hardware. Creating such a distro may be cool but it`s waste of time.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Witek Mozga on February 03, 2008, 04:43:49 am
Although I recall setting up a root account during installation, I can't access a root desktop as I might with VL Std. I login as root and get the login dialog again.

You have to select session as flux or JWM (default sessioon doesn`t work)
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Sweet William on February 04, 2008, 04:50:31 am
[snip]
Anyway I can`t help to say once again that creating a distro for older machines is an unfortunate idea as I cannot imagine anyone using such a machine for different usage as router/server. Xorg and GUI apps are useless on older hardware. Creating such a distro may be cool but it`s waste of time.

Just what would you suggest we do with older computers? Land fill perhaps?

You guys are talking about a "Lite" version at 350MB. Maybe that is middle-weight but certainly not light. The target for a functional lite distro with an X desktop should be 100MB max (no dev tools of course). I have a hard time reconsiling the fact that Puppy Linux and VL are both derived from Slackware. Puppy weighs in at 50M to 80M and boots very much faster than VL (60sec against 150sec plus). The biggest problem with Puppy is it is not finished and never will be. The desktop of VL is smooth, polished, and consistent; Puppy is one very spotty dog. The only reason I'm comparing VL to Puppy is I'm using it until I get VL working the way I want.

Why don't the developers among you look at what Barry K. has done and flog some of his ideas. I have to say his ideas are good; it is just that he seems to lack the attention span to finish them off properly. At the moment the only way to make VL "fly" is a liberal application of $$ to the hardware factor of the equation.

Here is a quote from your own web site:

"VectorLinux is considered to be the fastest, non-source Linux distribution on the planet!"

Why not make that statement come true and you really will have a tremendous distro.

BTW just what is a "non-source Linux distribution"? I hope it isn't some sort of get out of jail free thing.

I like VL; I'd like to like it a whole lot more. How about it?
--

Sweet William

using VL-5.8-STD-GOLD



Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: rbistolfi on February 04, 2008, 05:23:53 am
Sweet William, VL is fast on my PIII @ 600 mhz, and is just amazing in my main desktop, which is a pretty decent computer for today standards. Many users report the same. Some people here is testing Light in a PII with 64mb, iirc. Less than that... I don't think the effort worth it.
If you put the dev tools on Pup you get a 200mb iso already. And if you "finish" it, you get the size of VL Light ;D. Anyway this is a work in progress, and the size is not definitive.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Witek Mozga on February 04, 2008, 07:36:36 am
Just what would you suggest we do with older computers? Land fill perhaps?

I don`t suggest any treatment of older computers. I only think that creating a distro that is suppose to have X and gui apps on older machines (say 32M RAM and 200MHz) is waste of time. Such a machine can be a server or a net gateway, but GUI? Please... Maybe I`m wrong so I made a poll
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=5508.msg37734

Modern software is to blame. It is bloted. Several years ago 64KB of RAM on my Commodore 64 was enough. Today thousand times that is not enough. I still have my Commodore somewhere but it is unusable (even if there is unix-like OS creted for it). Even if you want to use older machines you cannot because modern soft requires you to have more RAM and more CPU cycles to be able use Flash, browse net, burn DVD, etc.

Maybe VL light should be an extensible base for STD, SOHO, Delux etc. Not intended to have small simple apps but normal usefull apps that are heavier but more usable on modern machines (gimp, k3b to name a few).
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on February 04, 2008, 11:58:39 am
There are modern, useful lightweight apps that aren't bloated and are still very much in development.  There are a number of distros designed for machines that have specs that you consider a waste of time or even lower specs that run X apps.  (Think Puppy Linux, Damn Small Linux, etc...)  VL Light and VL Mini promise a current kernel, a friendly community, and the best variety of apps for low spec machines.  Folks in the developing world often have to make do with what a lot of us would call obsolete.  I also believe keeping old machines useful is good for the environment.  Beats the hell out of landfilling them if they can still do a job.  I sure don't consider VL-Light or VL-Mini a waste of time or effort.

The smaller size will also make these versions of VL useful for green low spec PCs (nano- and pico-ITX technology) and machines like the Asus Eee PC.  Hardly old stuff, that.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on February 04, 2008, 12:03:47 pm
Regarding display managers:  KDM may not consume more memory than XDM but it is noticeably slower to load.  I'd suggest that neither is the right answer.  Have you looked at Slim (used by Wolvix Cub) or WDM?  I've tried both on my ancient Liberty P133 with 32MB of RAM and they are better choices than wither KDM or XDM -- more functionality than XDM, significantly faster than KDM.  Slim is the fastest of the bunch.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on February 04, 2008, 12:14:49 pm
SLIM is included in Alpha 2.3. It works. Hit F1 to select your wm. I don't know if it has a logout option anywhere.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on February 04, 2008, 12:21:35 pm
Quote
.. comparing VL to Puppy..
That is really comparing apples to oranges. VL is a full traditional distro. Puppy is a specialty product.

Quote
BTW just what is a "non-source Linux distribution"?

A source distro is compiled on your machine from the raw source. It usually takes days but you end up with an install tailored to and optimized for your hardware.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on February 04, 2008, 12:30:23 pm
SLIM is included in Alpha 2.3. It works. Hit F1 to select your wm. I don't know if it has a logout option anywhere.

I've had issues getting 2.3 until now -- slow, interrupted downloads.  It looks like the download is running well now.  wget is my friend :)
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Sweet William on February 04, 2008, 01:17:24 pm
Sweet William, VL is fast on my PIII @ 600 mhz, and is just amazing in my main desktop, which is a pretty decent computer for today standards. Many users report the same. Some people here is testing Light in a PII with 64mb, iirc. Less than that... I don't think the effort worth it.
If you put the dev tools on Pup you get a 200mb iso already. And if you "finish" it, you get the size of VL Light ;D. Anyway this is a work in progress, and the size is not definitive.

I can't comment on machines like PIIs and PIIIs because scrounging memory and cards for any machine that old is impossible where I live. I can however comment on your size assertions. I'm using Puppy 2.17 (83M); the dev kit is 66M. Call it 150M.

I've been programming long enough to know that the sort of finishing I mean does _not_ result in code bloat; in fact apps generally shrink. Better algorythms always come to light after the first cut.
--

Sweet William

using VL-5.8-STD-GOLD

Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Witek Mozga on February 04, 2008, 01:19:12 pm
There are a number of distros designed for machines that have specs that you consider a waste of time

Let put it in another way then: consider it a waste of time in context of Vector Linux. In my opinion SOHO is a wonderfull distro and developers should concentrate on it. Making several other versions is a waste of time.
Keep in mind, that Puppy Linux, Damn Small Linux are good because they are concentrated on what they are designed for. They don`t try to make Puppy DeLux, because it would make the releases less often, more bugs, etc. Thus all these versions would "disolve" in several hundreds of distros and versions. Now they shine among them because they are strictly dedicated.

Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Sweet William on February 04, 2008, 01:33:15 pm
Quote
.. comparing VL to Puppy..
That is really comparing apples to oranges. VL is a full traditional distro. Puppy is a specialty product.
Adding the dev kit (66M) to Puppy 2.17 (83M) in round figures is 150M. I think VLs dev tools are probably more extensive. Allow say another 50M for 200M total. Still a big difference when the principal apps of interest to general users are about on a par.

I don't see how Puppy is any more a speciality product than VL.

None of which explains why Puppy boots in 1min and VL takes 2.5min especially when both are derived from Slackware

Quote
Quote
BTW just what is a "non-source Linux distribution"?

A source distro is compiled on your machine from the raw source. It usually takes days but you end up with an install tailored to and optimized for your hardware.

So is Puppy.
--

Sweet William

using VL-5.8-STD-GOLD

Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Sweet William on February 04, 2008, 01:50:32 pm
snip...
Keep in mind, that Puppy Linux, Damn Small Linux are good because they are concentrated on what they are designed for.
With the exception of dev tools VL std offers no more than Puppy. Possibly less.

If SOHO was the only one available, I would not be using VL at all. Std Gold is what interests me and so that is what I've got.

Quote
They don`t try to make Puppy DeLux, because it would make the releases less often, more bugs, etc. Thus all these versions would "disolve" in several hundreds of distros and versions. Now they shine among them because they are strictly dedicated.

Actually, there are more spin off distros of the basic Puppy than you can poke a stick at. Mind you, I would not like to run Fat Puppy as a live cd on a P3/600. I gave up the wips and chains.
--

Sweet William

using VL-5.8-STD-GOLD

Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: rbistolfi on February 04, 2008, 01:54:30 pm
I can't comment on machines like PIIs and PIIIs because scrounging memory and cards for any machine that old is impossible where I live. I can however comment on your size assertions. I'm using Puppy 2.17 (83M); the dev kit is 66M. Call it 150M.
Where do you live? There is lot of stuff for PII and PIII in Buenos Aires.
I didn't time it, but my VL takes many less than 2.5 mins.
The size of the dev packages may vary depending in what do you consider to go in there.

Quote
I've been programming long enough to know that the sort of finishing I mean does _not_ result in code bloat; in fact apps generally shrink. Better algorythms always come to light after the first cut.
[/quote]

Ok.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: exeterdad on February 04, 2008, 01:55:58 pm
Quote
None of which explains why Puppy boots in 1min and VL takes 2.5min especially when both are derived from Slackware

I've only booted Puppy once a while back so I don't remember the experience. But there's many factors that will increase the speed or slow up the boot process.  VL aims to work for the majority of the people who install it.  Including dhcp, a print server and processes at startup. Though VL has fewer at boot time then most other distro's.  I'm curious if Puppy's network is up at boot, or cups run?  Or are these things turned on after your in your desktop?  Or if they are finishing setup in the background while you are busy logging in?  There's a ton of ways to speed things up.  My LFS system I tweaked would boot from lilo to the KDM greeter in 13 seconds.  Or it would appear.... because I messed with the init to have things silently loading, connecting to the network and such while I was typing in my password in KDM.  But that type of init wouldn't work for everyone. Things have to be kept generic to not exclude other users.

But on my newly retired, underpowerd machine, I don't think VL ever took 2.5 minutes to boot?
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: newt on February 04, 2008, 01:57:53 pm
I can understand how a person could feel that creating a new product line is a waste of time and resources, especially considering the limited resources that are already available along with the fact that the product line that's intended is already developed by many other parties.  I can see that logic; it makes sense and is a legitimate concern.  I also think that the actual developers realize this and will weigh their effort carefully so as not to become too fragmented.

On the other hand, I do not believe this venture of creating a slimmer product line to be a lesson in futility.  I believe that new insight and development will come of it that will contribute directly upstream (i.e. standard and soho/deluxe) - I'm betting that some already has ;).  Whether or not a slimmed down VL will survive (let alone survive to a final release) remains to be seen.

VL Light is not Puppy, nor is it DSL.  That fact alone should dictate that there is valid reason to pursue a venture of this sort.  If it fizzles, then so be it; if not, then so be it.

The original thread of "should VL attempt at Light version?" was closed.  I do not think this thread should be a continuation. ::)
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on February 04, 2008, 02:00:28 pm
Quote
I don't see how Puppy is any more a speciality product than VL.

I have used Puppy a lot while traveling. It is an excellent live product. I have not tried a hard drive install of it lately, but when I did in the past, the installer was very much a work in progress.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: rbistolfi on February 04, 2008, 02:06:16 pm
I am sorry about that (mine) last post. Honestly, we shouldn't be discussing this. We already did it and the choice was made. I think is offensive with uelsk8s, saulgoode, nightflier and Darin, who are already working on this (sorry if I missed someone) and the guys testing and such.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Lyn on February 04, 2008, 02:34:09 pm
Sorry to come in so late.  Did anyone look at Deli Linux?  Its a very lightweight Slackware derivative that has many of the same features that is being attempted with VL light.  Might have some important lessons for people on this project
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Witek Mozga on February 04, 2008, 03:00:15 pm
VL5.9-Light-A2.3 is ready for download

I was given a choice which applications to install, I deselcted pidgin but after installation the nice animated panel on the top still contained the icon for pidgin.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Witek Mozga on February 04, 2008, 03:05:52 pm
The original thread of "should VL attempt at Light version?" was closed.  I do not think this thread should be a continuation. ::)

Mea culpa, because I couldn`t help sharing my opinion with you again. I`ll try to keep my mouth shut on "should it or should it not".
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 04, 2008, 04:52:28 pm
Quote
I have a hard time reconsiling the fact that Puppy Linux and VL are both derived from Slackware.
Puppy is not derived from Slackware. Puppy was developed from scratch by Barry Kauler, and is not based on any distribution. As of version 3.0, Puppy has compatibility with Slackware 12 packages. Puppy has a single user/account, which is essentially root, hence there is no login, which reduces boot time. (This also reduces security, more than likely.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppy_linux

I see VL Light as a return to VectorLinux's roots as a fast, efficient, lean OS. VL has always attracted users who want to get more life out of older, even challenged computer hardware. Not too long ago the VL Std iso didn't fill up an entire CD as it does today.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: GrannyGeek on February 04, 2008, 08:55:37 pm
None of which explains why Puppy boots in 1min and VL takes 2.5min especially when both are derived from Slackware

I have four computers. VL boots in 40 seconds or less on all of them. The slowest one is a 1.3 GHz Celeron Tualatin with 1 gig of RAM. The fastest one is an Athlon 64 X2 4200+ with 3 gigs of RAM. Personally, I have zero interest in old, slow computers and have given any that I had away, but if that's the best someone can do, I sincerely wish them luck.

Even when I was running VL on a P133 laptop with 48 megs about seven years ago, it didn't take 2-1/2 minutes to boot.
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: BlueMage on February 04, 2008, 10:03:48 pm
Quote
I don't see how Puppy is any more a speciality product than VL.

I have used Puppy a lot while traveling. It is an excellent live product. I have not tried a hard drive install of it lately, but when I did in the past, the installer was very much a work in progress.

It still is, in a number of ways.

That doesn't change the fact that Puppy saved my sanity while I was in Dubai.

Though I do think Newtor has summed it up perfectly - a) there's no point in debating the validity or lack thereof regarding VL Light, as time will reveal that fairly clearly, and b) no doubt some insight into how certain aspects of the larger versions can be trimmed or further optimised without sacrificing wide-scale usability.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: lagagnon on February 04, 2008, 10:27:54 pm
Puppy weighs in at 50M to 80M and boots very much faster than VL (60sec against 150sec plus).

Please let us help you! Something is seriously wrong with either your machine, hardware, BIOS or installation if Puppy takes 60 seconds and VL 150 seconds. I have loaded VL on old P200's with 96 MB of RAM and they boot MUCH faster than that. What sort of computer are you talking about?
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 05, 2008, 12:35:33 am
I agree with Bill: Puppy boots considerably faster than VL 5.9 Std as an installed OS. I'm gonna quantify that impression shortly, so if there are any conditions I should impose on the experiment, let me know. I plan to use the same computer for the comparison, probably different hard drives.

Estimate: If VL takes 100 seconds to boot, then Puppy would take 70 seconds. Is that 30% faster?
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 05, 2008, 01:12:17 am
Re: black & blue skins on xmms and gmplayer

I like the dark blue wallpaper, looks great. The skin of xine looks good here because in its standard form, it actually stands out against the blue wallpaper. This is what I call good contrast. Gmplayer and xmms, on the other hand, are more obscure because they blend in with the blue background. There's little contrast, and its difficult to see controls in the dark colors. When I see a screenshot posted, there is usually good contrast between the app displayed and the background wallpaper. When there is good contrast, the illusion that there are two planes on the screen is enhanced, giving an overall 3-D impression.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: BlueMage on February 05, 2008, 05:11:43 am
I agree with Bill: Puppy boots considerably faster than VL 5.9 Std as an installed OS. I'm gonna quantify that impression shortly, so if there are any conditions I should impose on the experiment, let me know. I plan to use the same computer for the comparison, probably different hard drives.

Estimate: If VL takes 100 seconds to boot, then Puppy would take 70 seconds. Is that 30% faster?

Recommend you test Puppy as installed to a USB stick and Vector as a normal install - that way, neither is forced to load in an unusual manner (Puppy is intended to be run from external media, rather than as a hard-drive installation) which may mess up times.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Darin on February 06, 2008, 05:58:27 am
as promised there is another version based upon light 2.3 but live with almost everything stripped out except opera...we have it loading on 64mb or ram running live but not sure how usable it is..I used flux with wbar and I was able to get idesk working but found it easier to just do a few custom scripts to go ahead and add the needed icons to the wbar instead...looked alot cleaner that way...the first iso was pretty good but uel redid the bootsplash for me to get the white text for the splash text and we have a different bootsplash and redid the wallpaper..this is was made for my personal stuff with me working on the supergamer series so it is stripped :)
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on February 06, 2008, 01:57:39 pm
This probably can't be fixed but I'll report it anyway since VL: developers are generally more clever than I am...

I have two Toshiba Libretto SS1010 itty bitty subnotebooks, 233MHz Pentium processor in one, 266MHz in the other, 64MB RAM in one, 96MB RAM in the other.  96MB is maxed out, BTW.   Disk drive is only 2.1GB.  Upgrading isn't easy as Toshiba used a 6.4mm high drive in the Slim Shock series of the Libretto.  The only possibility is an IDE flash device -- not out of the question but not something I'm ready to do immediately. The issue with older Libretti is that they do not have a bootable CD-ROM drive, nor do they support booting from USB even if you have the docking bay with the USB 2.0 port, which I do. 

The method that worked for both VL 5.1 and VL 5.8 was to create a small partition (55MB) with Damn Small Linux frugal install.  Currently I have DSL 4.2.4 installed and running just fine.  Then I would use a PCMCIA CD-ROM drive, copy vinstall-cd to my home directory, and with a couple of minor edits to adjust for the older software in DSL the hosted install worked like a charm.  It doesn't work with VL 5.9 Light (any alpha version) or VL 5.9 Mini A1.  Oh, it installs everything as it should, tells me install is done, and then issues a segmentation fault telling me my kernel (I assume the DSL kernel) is too old.  DSL uses kernel 2.4.31.  If I then reboot and choose my new VL install from an entry I created in the grub menu it startd to boot, I get the penguin on the screen, and then:

Code: [Select]
ohci-hcd 0000:00:0b:0: request interrupt 11 failed
ohci-hcd 0000:00:0b:0: init 0000:00:0b:0 fail -16
kernel panic - not syncing VFS: unable to mount root-fs on unknown block (0,0)

So much for hosted installs with DSL.  I may try DSL-N 0.1rc4 or else DOS unless someone here has a brilliant suggestion.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 06, 2008, 02:43:30 pm
Remove hdd from Libretto, attach IDE adapter to 2.5" hdd, install hdd in any old desktop PC, install VL on 2.5 hdd in desktop PC, remove hdd from PC and replace in laptop, boot to TUI, run VASM to redetect hardware. Might be worth a try.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on February 06, 2008, 05:08:44 pm
You've obviously never tried to get a drive out of an SS1010.  The older Libretto models (20CTA-110CT) had drive caddies that were easy to get to.  Not so the Slim Shock series.  I won't be disassembling the system anytime soon if I can avoid it.  I have other methods to try.

DSL-N didn't work, FWIW.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 07, 2008, 04:34:49 am
Quote
You've obviously never tried to get a drive out of an SS1010.
I definitely eschew Toshiba products.

my toy: HP Omnibook 510 (sans expansion base)
http://www.math.fau.edu/sramka/omnibook510/
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on February 07, 2008, 08:27:51 pm
I've actually been very happy with my Toshibas.  They're reliable.  The Libretti in question are coming up on 10 years old.

I installed VL-Mini onto a partition of my Toshiba Satellite 1805-S204.  Nice.  Tarred and gzipped up the installed, working contents of the partition and dropped them onto the waiting partition on the Libretto.  Still no go.  I guess that the Libretto will go back to VL 5.8 for now.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on February 10, 2008, 04:52:35 am
Caitlyn wrote:
Quote
It doesn't work with VL 5.9 Light (any alpha version) or VL 5.9 Mini A1.  Oh, it installs everything as it should, tells me install is done, and then issues a segmentation fault telling me my kernel (I assume the DSL kernel) is too old.  DSL uses kernel 2.4.31.

news item:
Quote
The highlight of SCALE 6x for me so far has been meeting Robert Shingledecker, whose Damn Small Linux is one of the best distributions out there for hardware that's seen better days. I won't go into all we talked about, but in the way of news, Robert told me that Damn Small Linux will soon go beyond the 2.4 Linux kernel and put out a release based on 2.6 at some point in the near future.

http://www.insidesocal.com/click/2008/02/damn_small_linux_at_scale_6x_i.html
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: Darin on February 10, 2008, 05:10:46 am
we are getting close to a release of vlocity...it lives up to it's name also by the way with decreased boot times running live as well as freeing up some ram  requirements...the iso size is down to 251.7mb at this point
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nubcnubdo on March 25, 2008, 01:52:44 pm
Expect-lite command line automation
http://www.linux.com/feature/128384

Linpus Lite 9.4
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/24503

Mandriva Kiosk Lite
http://club.mandriva.com/xwiki/bin/Main/KioskLiteTesting

Ubuntulite
http://ubuntulite.tuxfamily.org/

SQLite
http://www.sqlite.org/

vLite     oops
http://www.vlite.net/about.html
[Darn, "VLite" would have been a cool name. M$ third party got there first.]

ZenLite
http://support.zenwalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=15114&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=4cecd005b873e1f80bd327e0c3b3a6b0&start=0

Shift Linux Lite
http://shiftlinux.net/news/item/shift-linux-065-released
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: bigpaws on March 31, 2008, 03:06:32 pm
I have been following this thread.

I ran across this:

http://www.junauza.com/2008/03/slitaz-gnulinux-smallest-desktop-distro.html (http://www.junauza.com/2008/03/slitaz-gnulinux-smallest-desktop-distro.html)

25 MB in total

Bigpaws
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: nightflier on April 17, 2008, 08:38:18 am
I have been following this thread.

I ran across this:

http://www.junauza.com/2008/03/slitaz-gnulinux-smallest-desktop-distro.html (http://www.junauza.com/2008/03/slitaz-gnulinux-smallest-desktop-distro.html)

25 MB in total

Bigpaws

VL Light is definitely creeping in the opposite direction. Considering that the starting point is a 1.3 GB chunk based on VL Std, this version will not be anywhere close to small. It has become more of a different choice in WM/DE's and default applications. We're gonna need to do VL Mini after this one.  ;)
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: caitlyn on June 12, 2008, 04:29:44 pm
I agree.  I've been very impressed with VL Mini Alpha 1.1 and I do believe there is real potential for a little vesion to be popular, particularly for the new wave of machines using little RAM devices in lieu of hard drives.  When you only have 4GB or less to play with a small OS Is crucial.  VL Mini fits the bill beautifully. 

Personally I'd like to see the next build of Mini include the latest LXDE as the default desktop.  I've always liked JWM but LXDE does take the concept to the next level.
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: aryr100 on July 25, 2011, 02:50:26 pm
Ok just installed VL-light-live-7.0
On EeePC
Install went fine there was a error about hyphenation script but missed it
1 thing after install the vl account is still present and with a autologin
changing the inittab from 4 to 3 was no help
had to init 3 from root shell and delate the vl account reboot now I can login with the account I made
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: GrannyGeek on July 25, 2011, 02:58:21 pm
Unless you found some secret place where ISOs are posted, you installed VL-LIVE 7, not VL-lite 7 (and it's "light," not "lite").

If you want to keep using VectorLinux, it's recommended that you install the Standard ISO, not the Live version, which is intended for demo purposes and for having something portable you can take around when you can't install on a hard druve,
--GrannyGeek
Title: Re: VL-LIGHT Dev thread
Post by: roarde on August 02, 2011, 06:03:56 pm
Unless you found some secret place where ISOs are posted, you installed VL-LIVE 7, not VL-lite 7 (and it's "light," not "lite").

There're light live alpha versions in a not-so-secret place, but the file date of the first was one day prior to your post; I don't refresh three times a day either :P    I'd post a URL, but looks like Nightflier has chosen other methods  here (http://forum.vectorlinux.com/index.php?topic=14343.msg85403#msg85403) for passing on the info. Must be testing his inbox capacity :)

Nods to the idea of using an installation rather than a live ISO for install as of now. Don't know whether Light 7 will continue to have different live vs. install discs, but as stated in the link above, what's there hasn't been released for public testing, let alone general installation. If you're interested in testing for testing's sake, though, see the link.