VectorLinux

The Vectorian Lounge => The Lounge => Topic started by: Triarius Fidelis on June 24, 2008, 01:42:58 am

Title: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 24, 2008, 01:42:58 am
I was thinking about Late Antiquity earlier. Specifically, I was thinking about the sack of Alexandria. I can't think of any other historical event I would have wanted to prevent more. It really surprises me that Cyril is still called a saint, but I guess you can't argue with tradition. ::)

Anyway, It seems that in a geologically short time period—only a few centuries—we've basically recovered most of the technical knowledge from the city's library one way or another (unfortunately, very little of the art) and are now well on the path of steady exponential growth of technology.

I can't account for the hardiness of reason, something that has been threatened year in and year out for ages, other than to say that there is something in Nature that favors it. I'm not necessarily saying that Nature actively cares about us using reason, or that there is some God or supernatural force that wants us to. I'm not saying there isn't either. Maybe there is. I guess I'm agnostic, but I'm not even sure about that. But, in any case, I'm not so much concerned cause as I am with effect. The effect is apparently that using reason in any form is ultimately rewarded much more than wallowing in ignorance, even though it appears to have the advantage in the short term.

And I have to say—it feels good to have something to believe in that isn't petty, like the personal satisfaction I get out of studying or the material comfort I can enjoy from pursuing a challenging field. If any one of us who is  interested in promoting the truth fails along the way, ten more will eventually pick up where the one left off. It's a process that can't be stopped, I think. There is evidently something more powerful than any one of us that will crush out the people who blow themselves up in the street in the name of God, the people who kill scholars and the people who try to corrupt science education in public schools. It might be a strictly incidental force of nature, but it's very comforting anyway.

So, I think I've found the peace of mind that I couldn't find in religion or in society as it stands today. This is pretty cool. What do you think?
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: gacl on June 24, 2008, 08:05:02 am
My view of the living world is very simple: The survival of the gene pool. To me that's all there is. You take something very complex, you start to decompose it, and sooner or later you'll find those genes there. Of course, i've been told that i'm oversimplifying everything, but i've done my share of brainstorming on this and i stand by my opinions.

Now, if we think about, let's say the AIDS virus ( HIV ), it just propagates its genetic code as it wreaks havoc on us. But, why? It's certainly not doing it consciously; it doesn't even have a brain. Instinct? Ditto. Is it obeying some fundamental laws of physics? Some properties of the carbon molecule? In other words: Why does "survival of the gene pool" exist?
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 24, 2008, 01:14:31 pm
Hm, well idk.

But it has been seen that precursors to life arise spontaneously—including crude self-replicators—in a laboratory simulation of the environment of a very early Earth.

It seems something in Nature 'wants' life to exist and—later on—sentient life.

I imagine that an AI complex enough to replicate and solve new problems would be rewarded by Nature in the same way. Its sentience would be more important than whether it's organic or not.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: tomh38 on June 24, 2008, 02:59:38 pm
EPIC:

Regarding the destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria (I think that's what you're referring to):  There's now a lot of disagreement among scholars about what actually happened to the most famous library of antiquity.  I once read a book which listed a number of people upon whom the burning has been blamed, only to show that a great library at Alexandria is referred to at some later date in history.  I probably borrowed the book from my public library; I no longer remember the name of the author nor the title of the book.  However, here is a link to an article from The Straight Dope which is a good summary of why we should be skeptical about the actual destruction of the library:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/malexanderlibrary.html (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/malexanderlibrary.html)

If I can find the book I'll give you the title and author in a later post.

Regarding the second point, about how life persists:  it seems to me that a molecule which could make copies of itself only had to come into existence once.  Whether that happened purely by accident, or because of something inherent in the nature of the universe, or via a divine act is right now a question open to debate (I'm leaving out my own personal opinion here).  Once such a molecule came into existence, however, it would spread to wherever the raw materials that made it up could be found.  If by some fluke one of these self-replicating molecules gained a quality which helped it to replicate more easily, more quickly, or exist under harsher conditions, it too would spread everywhere it could.  You can of course see where this is going - to the world in which we live today, where life is very diverse and found even in extremely harsh conditions.

I don't think I can say why this happened, but the geological record and our own knowledge of chemistry indicates that it did happen.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 24, 2008, 03:36:20 pm
I am surprised Cyril did not eat the filleted flesh of Hypatia directly from one of the abalone shells. Perhaps no clean portion was possible, his mob was fiendish, stripping her to the bone and burning the remains before obliterating the intellectual remains of the library. A truly fascinating reflection of human repetition

http://alexpetrov.net/memes/hum/alexandria/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_Alexandrina
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Dweeberkitty on June 24, 2008, 07:54:43 pm
I guess I'm agnostic, but I'm not even sure about that.

LOL.....You're not sure whether you're sure or not or even whether you can be sure of anything and be sure of your position of being sure on it?  :D Wow, that'd drive ME bonkers.  ;D
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Masta on June 24, 2008, 08:17:57 pm
I'm so sure of being sure ... lol  ;D
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 24, 2008, 08:44:58 pm
EPIC:

Regarding the destruction of the Great Library at Alexandria (I think that's what you're referring to):  There's now a lot of disagreement among scholars about what actually happened to the most famous library of antiquity.  I once read a book which listed a number of people upon whom the burning has been blamed, only to show that a great library at Alexandria is referred to at some later date in history.  I probably borrowed the book from my public library; I no longer remember the name of the author nor the title of the book.  However, here is a link to an article from The Straight Dope which is a good summary of why we should be skeptical about the actual destruction of the library:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/malexanderlibrary.html (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/malexanderlibrary.html)

Well, the point is that there were a lot of crazy people like St. Cyril (and, like your page mentioned, Omar) who were directly hostile to the library and eventually destroyed most of its contents. Yet there has been a recovery.

Regarding the second point, about how life persists:  it seems to me that a molecule which could make copies of itself only had to come into existence once.  Whether that happened purely by accident, or because of something inherent in the nature of the universe, or via a divine act is right now a question open to debate (I'm leaving out my own personal opinion here).  Once such a molecule came into existence, however, it would spread to wherever the raw materials that made it up could be found.  If by some fluke one of these self-replicating molecules gained a quality which helped it to replicate more easily, more quickly, or exist under harsher conditions, it too would spread everywhere it could.  You can of course see where this is going - to the world in which we live today, where life is very diverse and found even in extremely harsh conditions.

tr00f
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: tomh38 on June 25, 2008, 07:07:36 am
EPIC:

I've concluded that there are a few important points to keep in mind about the Great Library at Alexandria.  If people remember that something has been done in the past, they then know that it can be done; this gives them much greater incentive to invent something than they would otherwise have - since they know it existed, they will look for a way to re-create it.  Another point is that very few searches for knowledge are completely fruitless.  Sometimes people make fun of the medieval alchemists in their search for a way to convert base metals into gold.  Nevertheless, in their researches the alchemists discovered the properties of many substances, which laid the groundwork for modern chemistry.  It's also easy to mock astrology (which we know has existed for at least three and a half millenia), but the precise observations of the planets and stars which astrologers made laid the groundwork for modern astronomy.

On the other point, concerning the origin of life and its place in our universe:  we already know that our universe is hospitable to life (our own planet is evidence of that).  In addition, we only recently confirmed that many stars near us have planetary systems, something that was suspected by many for a long time but is now known as fact.  I think we're on the verge of knowing (within the next few decades) whether planets capable of bearing life are common also.  My personal opinion is that on the scale of the universe the existence of life in places other than our planet is almost certain.  I hold this opinion because there are probably more than 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe, ranging in size from a few tens of millions of stars to a trillion or more in very large galaxies.  Whether or not life exists elsewhere in our galaxy or even in our corner of the Orion Arm, I think we're going to find out very soon (on a historical scale, of course).
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 25, 2008, 02:05:40 pm
EPIC:

I've concluded that there are a few important points to keep in mind about the Great Library at Alexandria.  If people remember that something has been done in the past, they then know that it can be done; this gives them much greater incentive to invent something than they would otherwise have - since they know it existed, they will look for a way to re-create it.  Another point is that very few searches for knowledge are completely fruitless.  Sometimes people make fun of the medieval alchemists in their search for a way to convert base metals into gold.  Nevertheless, in their researches the alchemists discovered the properties of many substances, which laid the groundwork for modern chemistry.  It's also easy to mock astrology (which we know has existed for at least three and a half millenia), but the precise observations of the planets and stars which astrologers made laid the groundwork for modern astronomy.

Newton's alchemical experiments have been repeated and it turns out a lot of them have merit.

I have much less respect for astrology (especially since people still seem to take it seriously), but yes it was important.

On the other point, concerning the origin of life and its place in our universe:  we already know that our universe is hospitable to life (our own planet is evidence of that).  In addition, we only recently confirmed that many stars near us have planetary systems, something that was suspected by many for a long time but is now known as fact.  I think we're on the verge of knowing (within the next few decades) whether planets capable of bearing life are common also.  My personal opinion is that on the scale of the universe the existence of life in places other than our planet is almost certain.  I hold this opinion because there are probably more than 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe, ranging in size from a few tens of millions of stars to a trillion or more in very large galaxies.  Whether or not life exists elsewhere in our galaxy or even in our corner of the Orion Arm, I think we're going to find out very soon (on a historical scale, of course).

Well, there's a Terrestrial Planet Finder project now and so we'll find out whether it's possible very, very soon. Finding out whether it is true (i.e., obviously intelligent transmissions and/or entirely credible report of contact) may take a very long time. I think our best bet would be to send a probe to Europa and look for life under its icy shell. If there is life twice over in our Solar System, I think we can infer it's abundant everywhere it can be sustained. If not, then who knows.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 26, 2008, 04:10:38 pm
Quote
So, I think I've found the peace of mind that I couldn't find in religion or in society as it stands today. This is pretty cool. What do you think?

Ya that's pretty cool EFG..I'm not very religious.. but if there was a man named jesus I think he was a man with the confidence to die for what he believed..and understood the power of positive thinking and simple pleasure. I think his mother took him to church and when he realized the history was being used for self gain by the clerics, said so and was kicked out...when he explained to others outside the church.. some blindly followed not really understanding but intrigued and when he rubbed sand over the cateracts of a man blinded by them and stuck his head in a fountain to wash out the sand the now seeing man was amazed and the blind followers thought it a miracle..how can you stay silent when you have knowledge to share..point being he found the self confidence to embrace what religion and general society could not..wisdom...accumulated knowledge objectively applied

I think intelligent life out there know better than to make contact...we are like wolverines...then again it could be an encounter like THE MOTE IN GODS EYE where both are equally pompous and traitorous

cheers
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Will on June 26, 2008, 04:44:07 pm
RE: Alexandria

I'd always assumed the library was burned/purged at least four different times throughout history. I don't know why four as opposed to six, or three, or any other number, perhaps something I'd heard or seen when researching the matter years ago.

Still, the fact that we know that things HAVE been done provides a stepping stone, even though many seemed to view stories of temple machines, or the odometer, as exadurations or outright fabrication  they gave people ideas on what to aim for.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Dweeberkitty on June 26, 2008, 05:42:44 pm
but if there was a man named jesus

:o LOL, IF there was a man named Jesus.....This is what I believe in case you want to know (or even if you don't  ;)):
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3794.msg24650#msg24650

Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 26, 2008, 06:07:29 pm
I think intelligent life out there know better than to make contact...we are like wolverines...then again it could be an encounter like THE MOTE IN GODS EYE where both are equally pompous and traitorous

Haven't read anything by Larry Niven yet. But I do like the hard science fiction genre. Seems to be worth looking at.

Still, the fact that we know that things HAVE been done provides a stepping stone, even though many seemed to view stories of temple machines, or the odometer, as exadurations or outright fabrication  they gave people ideas on what to aim for.

The temple machines are at least theoretically possible and the Roman odometer is definitely not a fabrication! The secret in recreating it was very simple actually: to use triangular teeth on the gear, so that a peg on the wheel would advance it without getting stuck. Every other attempt failed because they tried to use unwieldy square teeth.

but if there was a man named jesus

:o LOL, IF there was a man named Jesus.....This is what I believe in case you want to know (or even if you don't  ;)):
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3794.msg24650#msg24650

As we've mentioned before, this post contains several logical fallacies and inaccuracies. One is that the Second Law of Thermodynamics has nothing to do with information entropy—i.e., 'randomness' of data, or how well data can be compressed ideally. That law is about the physics meaning of entropy, rather than the information theory meaning of entropy, and simply states that the amount of energy usable to do work decreases constantly in a closed system. (The Earth is an open system.) Information theory doesn't really support ID either, because it observes that Nature has many interesting ways of self-organization.

And, overall, the argument rests on an 'appeal to the masses'. If we were to rank religions by the size of a consistent corpus written by many people over thousands of years, Hinduism would probably be the winner. However, I don't follow Hinduism even though it has many, many texts, which are, for the most part, internally consistent. I find some aspects of this religion really illogical, and I can come up with my own opinions anyway.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Dweeberkitty on June 26, 2008, 07:08:33 pm
As we've mentioned before, this post contains several logical fallacies and inaccuracies. One is that the Second Law of Thermodynamics has nothing to do with information entropy—i.e., 'randomness' of data, or how well data can be compressed ideally. That law is about the physics meaning of entropy, rather than the information theory meaning of entropy, and simply states that the amount of energy usable to do work decreases constantly in a closed system. (The Earth is an open system.) Information theory doesn't really support ID either, because it observes that Nature has many interesting ways of self-organization.

Yeppers, I realized my mistake...but of course the thread is locked so I couldn't change it. But yeah, if you have a bone to pick, an axe to grind, pick that ONE sentence and generalize my mistake in an attempt to downplay the entire argument. I guess that's how the lawyers do it.  ;)

And, overall, the argument rests on an 'appeal to the masses'. If we were to rank religions by the size of a consistent corpus written by many people over thousands of years, Hinduism would probably be the winner. However, I don't follow Hinduism even though it has many, many texts, which are, for the most part, internally consistent.

Wow, I did not realize that Hinduism was more consistent and had more historical backing than the Bible. I'd like to see where you got that.  :D In all seriousness, compared with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscript evidence  than  any ten  pieces of classical literature combined. (Montegomery, J.W. "History and Christianity", Downer's Grove, IL. InterVarsity Press)

There are now more than 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Add to that over  10,000 Latin Vulgate and at  least 9,300 other early versions and we have more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions  of the New Testament in existence.  No other document of antiquity even begins to approach such numbers and attestation. In  comparison, the "Iliad" by  Homer is second  with only 643 manuscripts that   still survive. Other works   such as the writings   of Livy, Plato, and Herodotus have no more than 20 surviving manuscripts! (Bruce, F.F. "The Books and The Parchments", Rev. ed. Westwood: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1963.)

The reliability of  the  New Testament  manuscripts is  also supported by   the writings of  the early church Fathers. Suppose  that the New Testament had been destroyed, and every  copy of it  lost by the end  of the third century (that's 100 years before the  Synod of Hippo canonized the  New Testament), how much of it could be collected from the writings of the Fathers  of the second and third centuries? The answer is stunning! All of it except for eleven verses. ([9] Leach, C. "Our Bible: How We Got It", Chicago: Moody Press)

LOL, yeah anyway, that's that. If you want to talk historical accuracy and consistency, don't argue with the Bible. :D I don't intend this to be a flame to anyone, just had to defend my position you know.  ;D

Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 26, 2008, 07:34:53 pm
Quote
LOL, IF there was a man named Jesus.....This is what I believe in case you want to know

Sorry.. it was not my intention to offend those inspired by dogma but to site example of one misunderstood in history who I feel had confidence in his understanding of history and science and was not afraid to apply it regardless the consequences. many examples exist in historical documentation, this is perhaps one of the more popular and could use some trimming down to fuctional value. Hypatia, said to be the last scientist to work in the library of Alexandria is possible another. True is true to what objective or less bias perspectives we may precieve it?

As you mention a whirl wind of sorts createing things...so it goes with the king james amoung other translations of ancient text..these were precieved to have similar context and put into a collection by man and were created by such. I have no willingness to prove any supernatural creation of a bound volume nor to argue any dogmatic belief in the same. However I feel that all may have the right to share there philosophical ideals in appropriate venue. I do not feel my comparison of EFG and Jesus unreasonable in this one, but will take it no further and apologize for any inappropriate forum posting
cheers
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 26, 2008, 07:42:41 pm
Yeppers, I realized my mistake...but of course the thread is locked so I couldn't change it. But yeah, if you have a bone to pick, an axe to grind, pick that ONE sentence and generalize my mistake in an attempt to downplay the entire argument. I guess that's how the lawyers do it.  ;)

There were a number of inaccuracies and I didn't have time to examine every single one. So I picked out one just for instance.

Anyway, the main thrust of your argument, as I said, was an appeal to the masses. That is considered a logical fallacy.

There are now more than 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Add to that over  10,000 Latin Vulgate and at  least 9,300 other early versions and we have more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions  of the New Testament in existence.  No other document of antiquity even begins to approach such numbers and attestation. In  comparison, the "Iliad" by  Homer is second  with only 643 manuscripts that   still survive. Other works   such as the writings   of Livy, Plato, and Herodotus have no more than 20 surviving manuscripts! (Bruce, F.F. "The Books and The Parchments", Rev. ed. Westwood: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1963.)

Well ... what does that mean? It was copied accurately, many times. There are only 643 copies of the Iliad, as you said, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a real Trojan War. Likewise, having many copies of any other book, including originals, doesn't make it right.

And of course there are so few original manuscripts by authors like Livy, Plato and Herodotus. As you may have noticed earlier, many of them were put to the torch.

LOL, yeah anyway, that's that. If you want to talk historical accuracy and consistency, don't argue with the Bible. :D

There are many places where the Bible and history and/or science are in conflict.

For example, natural languages did not all come from Sumeria. They developed over time, and in different locations. In fact, they're still developing today.

Dragons, cockatrices and satyrs, all mentioned as real creatures in the Bible, do not exist. Dragons could be dinosaurs I guess, but there's never been anything like a cockatrice or satyr.

The Bible also contains passages that imply the Earth is flat, such as Mat 4:8. A mega-mountain from which you could see all the kingdoms of the Earth at that time would not only require a flat Earth, but would also require a mountain huge enough to see all the way east to China. Josh 10:12-13 says that the Sun stood still in the sky. We know that, for the Sun to appear to stand still, the Earth would have to stop revolving. The inertia of people living on its surface would suddenly trouble them greatly if that happened.

We take that the Earth is more or less round for granted today, and benefit from this fact a lot. I think saying that the Bible is 100% historically and scientifically accurate doesn't show enough respect to the men and women who faced persecution, torture and death to say otherwise.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 26, 2008, 08:06:23 pm
It can be interesting  to look at the possible meaning of a passage ..in S&G I think the family of good is told to leave the city and not look back or they would turn to stone...I think that means if any one had turned to look they would be mesmorized by the happening and thus appear in so many words to be turned to stone and perhaps lose what opportunity could be had for safe passage before being consumed by it. in other words...make haste
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 26, 2008, 08:32:43 pm
A lot of the Hebrew sense of metaphor is really interesting. It paints very vivid pictures with only a few simple words, and I think it's a great example for modern authors.

I don't reject everything in the Bible, in either its literary or ethical content. In fact, I don't want to develop a one-sided view of anything. So I definitely have a strong appreciation for some things in the Bible. But I am extremely opposed to blind faith, because death and chaos almost always follow in its trace.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Dweeberkitty on June 26, 2008, 08:36:10 pm
Likewise, having many copies of any other book, including originals, doesn't make it right.

Very good. I'm glad you realized that. But it does make you wonder, why were the copies so carefully preserved and copied so accurately? Maybe there is something special about it that is worth checking out?


There are many places where the Bible and history and/or science are in conflict.

For example, natural languages did not all come from Sumeria. They developed over time, and in different locations. In fact, they're still developing today.

Dragons, cockatrices and satyrs, all mentioned as real creatures in the Bible, do not exist. Dragons could be dinosaurs I guess, but there's never been anything like a cockatrice or satyr.

The Bible also contains passages that imply the Earth is flat, such as Mat 4:8. A mega-mountain from which you could see all the kingdoms of the Earth at that time would not only require a flat Earth, but would also require a mountain huge enough to see all the way east to China. Josh 10:12-13 says that the Sun stood still in the sky. We know that, for the Sun to appear to stand still, the Earth would have to stop revolving. The inertia of people living on its surface would suddenly trouble them greatly if that happened.

LOL. ;D I guess I'm laughing (not at you, don't take it personally) because those are the most overused, clichéd examples of the Bible and science contradicting in existence. They are also the most addressed ones too--there are entire books dedicated to those subjects. I'm not even going to try to answer your arguments, not because I don't have the answers, but because the answers are so readily available. I could suggest some books for you to read, but I don't know if you'd actually want to read them. Let me know if you are interested.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 26, 2008, 09:05:10 pm
Likewise, having many copies of any other book, including originals, doesn't make it right.

Very good. I'm glad you realized that. But it does make you wonder, why were the copies so carefully preserved and copied so accurately? Maybe there is something special about it that is worth checking out?

A lot of it had to do with that the people who were busy propagating it were also keen on eliminating other books. I guess you could say their attention was undivided.

In any case, the existence of many accurate copies of a book does not definitively suggest anything about it other than that it was accurately copied many times.

btw, Euclid's The Elements has almost as many editions as the Bible—it was sheltered from the Dark Ages by scholars in the Near East—but it's far from perfect. Some of its proofs are not very rigorous and of course there is non-Euclidean geometry today. It's still a good book and can even still be used as a textbook, but I wouldn't trust it unswervingly.

LOL. ;D I guess I'm laughing (not at you, don't take it personally) because those are the most overused, clichéd examples of the Bible and science contradicting in existence. They are also the most addressed ones too--there are entire books dedicated to those subjects. I'm not even going to try to answer your arguments, not because I don't have the answers, but because the answers are so readily available. I could suggest some books for you to read, but I don't know if you'd actually want to read them. Let me know if you are interested.

Well, we live in Western society and the onus is on you to show evidence for your claims.

I could have easily referred you to an undergraduate physics or biology text for rebuttals to things you've said before, but I took time to explain them instead. I'm kind of disappointed. I would like to know the titles of these books anyway. I've learned not to expect much from creationist books, seminars, websites, etc. because they tend to be dishonest (http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Pier/1766/hovindlies/) and, in general, don't hold up to Occam's razor. The arguments are usually convoluted and require too many assumptions. I've seen a lot of them already, but I'm willing to look at something that is genuinely new.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 26, 2008, 09:16:17 pm
In modern times there are all to often stems of deceit supporting the flowers of hope. I suspect in the next few years psycological prowess will be of greater value to the masses, mathmatics plays an intrinsic role.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 26, 2008, 09:25:56 pm
Evidence of this change can already be seen. Especially since the 90's, bookish people are starting to be respected a lot more in our neck of the woods. Creationism/ID has been expunged from several public school curricula. People are apparently realizing that books aren't (only) for dorks and that we don't stand much of a chance to compete with our Eastern neighbors if we don't put the same value on empiricism as they do.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: tomh38 on June 28, 2008, 11:49:14 am
Hi everybody ... as you know I'm not a mod or an admin, just another user (I don't even code).  I would prefer that this not become a religious discussion, as that could develop into a religious flamewar (not necessarily, but still possible).  I'm not against such discussions, but the last time that happened in a VL Lounge thread, the thread got locked.  I know things aren't hostile right now, but with this sort of topic they can easily become so.

This is only a personal request, since I would like the thread to remain open.

Tom
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 28, 2008, 01:09:20 pm
lol..well you are likely correct in assumtion...I take responsibility for mentioning the J word..I thought the lounge may offer some opportunity for posting as I seem to have an affection for vector but mayby I will stick to reading..there is still lots of great stuff I have not grasp in the threads above..and btw I am happy to see they have survived.....later
cheers
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 28, 2008, 03:41:26 pm
Hi everybody ... as you know I'm not a mod or an admin, just another user (I don't even code).  I would prefer that this not become a religious discussion, as that could develop into a religious flamewar (not necessarily, but still possible).  I'm not against such discussions, but the last time that happened in a VL Lounge thread, the thread got locked.  I know things aren't hostile right now, but with this sort of topic they can easily become so.

A lock would be unnecessary. In fact, there have been harsher threads here that were not locked.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: tomh38 on June 29, 2008, 07:00:11 am
A lock would be unnecessary. In fact, there have been harsher threads here that were not locked.

EPIC:  I agree with you, a lock is unnecessary, and there have been harsher threads that have not been locked.  Also, I'm not trying to keep this thread completely away from religious topics, and I certainly didn't want overthere or anyone else to leave the thread.  I just wanted to keep this thread from developing into a religious flamewar, since the last time we had that the thread did get locked, which ended the discussion.

overthere
, I apologize if I came across too strong, or for anything I wrote which may have led you to think that what I was saying was aimed at you.  It wasn't.  I was only offering my opinion as another member of the VL community, based on past experience.  Since this is the Lounge, things are pretty open in the threads.

So, for what it's worth, I have no desire to keep anybody from discussing any topic.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 29, 2008, 07:39:50 am
EPIC:  I agree with you, a lock is unnecessary, and there have been harsher threads that have not been locked.  Also, I'm not trying to keep this thread completely away from religious topics, and I certainly didn't want overthere or anyone else to leave the thread.  I just wanted to keep this thread from developing into a religious flamewar, since the last time we had that the thread did get locked, which ended the discussion.

That is true. However, no flame war actually broke out.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: tomh38 on June 29, 2008, 09:34:27 am
EPIC:  You're right, there was no flamewar.  I admit that I over-reacted, out of fear that a flamewar might have been about to happen.  I can see now that my fear was misplaced.  I apologize.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 29, 2008, 07:22:54 pm
Tomh38
It's fine..thanks..It could happen..I have inadvertantly caused that before on a forum mentioning I was praying to...someone.. no one stole all my underwears from the laundrymat..you would think they could leave two socks instead of one stuck to the side of the washer tub at least..never mind...kinda WAY off topic....ok..i'll stop typeing...
cheers
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: tomh38 on June 30, 2008, 06:37:51 am
Thanks, overthere.  It's not your fault either though.  By the way, where do all the missing socks go anyway?  Is there some other dimension or planet where they have their own civilization?  ;D
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 30, 2008, 02:00:41 pm
every once and a while you see one on the side of the road...must have had a heartattack and got left behind during the escape..imagine..come on glenda come on..nows our chance..laying there in the fetal position isn't going to stop the misery..I have a friend at the dryers..let's go..hurry the pounders comming..run glenda runnnn..ack..uk..ack...save your self.....glenda...go
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: dawnsboy on June 30, 2008, 03:00:08 pm
Having worked on dryers more times than I care to count I can attest to the fact that it is not only possible that they may escape through the dryer; they are actually induced to make the attempt because the very design of the dryer invites such activities.  I have seen socks, coins, paper money, sundry items such as paperclips, small toys and yes I have even seen a hanger or two manage to make a getaway.  The drum is fixed to a short motor shaft at the rear of the dryer.  The front of the drum is not actually attached to the dryer.  The front of the dryer has a handful of slightly curved tab like projections that find themselves inside the drum when the front of the dryer is assembled.  The seal is also attached to the front of the dryer and wears out as time goes by.  This allows the drum to float to some degree rather than being fixed to something.  It is through these seemingly doubtful gaps that the socks make good their escape.  It usually starts with the occasional sock finding its way out.  As the dryer ages the number (and size) of the items that escape increases until finally, you guessed it; mass exodus.

In most cases the escapees make things worse as they will usually find themselves outside the drum ( therefore beyond the sight and reach of their human masters ) but trapped within the dryer itself.  That part of their bold journey is fraught with danger and disappointment.  Especially if it is a gas dryer.  I have found them in the dryer duct.  Perhaps this is an indication that some of their counterparts actually made it outside the dwelling.  I doubt that I will ever know because they are no where to be seen ( although I have heard stories ).  In any event if you notice that you are losing large numbers of socks it is time to have the local technician or your otherwise useless brother-in-law run routine maintenance on the dryer.  This will increase the efficiency of the dryer, prevent the machine from wearing out altogether and in the case of a gas dryer or situation where air flow has been severely obstructed by the bodies of unsuccessful escapees the routine maintenance may very well prevent a fire.  It may also prevent the number of escapees from rising to the point that they feel confident about returning to rescue their fellows that were left behind.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: exeterdad on June 30, 2008, 03:23:29 pm
:D
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 30, 2008, 04:13:51 pm
dawnsboy

That's interesting. I wish I had more repair skills. I did wiring for a house once, which was pretty cool.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: tomh38 on June 30, 2008, 05:14:28 pm
Maybe the socks go here:  http://www.worth1000.com/entries/57000/57019xEGC_w.jpg

Here is an explanation of where they might go: http://khamael.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/the-planet-of-lost-socks-and-the-story-of-a-perfect-nipple/

WARNING:  Page includes "Not Safe For Work" photograph.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 30, 2008, 05:24:00 pm
say.. thanks for the new wallpaper.. it's.. Perfect ;)

speaking of mechanics

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/GreekScience/Students/Ellen/Museum.html

some uses of the Archimedes screw

http://www.math.nyu.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Screw/Applications.html

steam cannon tests

http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www//experiments/steamCannon/ArchimedesSteamCannon.html

solar energy

http://www.miller-mccune.com/article/289
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: dawnsboy on June 30, 2008, 06:05:06 pm
EPIC FAIL GUY
Quote
dawnsboy

That's interesting. I wish I had more repair skills. I did wiring for a house once, which was pretty cool.

Actually wiring a house is pretty cool.  8)

I have never wired a house although I have done home electrical repair.

tomh38

Quote
Maybe the socks go here:  http://www.worth1000.com/entries/57000/57019xEGC_w.jpg

Seems to be a broken link at this point.  The other one is hilarious but due to spelling, syntax and sentence construction issues I suspect that it was actually written by one of the missing socks.   ;)

ON SECOND THOUGHT

If the story about the perfect nipple was written by the same author as the story of the missing socks then my theory on that one is out the window....




Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 30, 2008, 06:23:09 pm
say.. thanks for the new wallpaper.. it's.. Perfect ;)

speaking of mechanics

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/GreekScience/Students/Ellen/Museum.html

some uses of the Archimedes screw

http://www.math.nyu.edu/~crorres/Archimedes/Screw/Applications.html

steam cannon tests

http://web.mit.edu/2.009/www//experiments/steamCannon/ArchimedesSteamCannon.html

solar energy

http://www.miller-mccune.com/article/289

eh heh heh (pretty cool) heh heh heh (thank you very much)

My wallpaper, incidentally

http://www.hypatia-lovers.com/images/Hypatia_1024x768_px_Wallpaper.jpg

Shown resized here

(http://i28.tinypic.com/2ecg8yo.jpg)

That site up top (the Alexandria one) is the ideal kind of web page: very little formatting, a lot of content. The Sacred Texts website is a lot like that as well.

EPIC FAIL GUY
Quote
dawnsboy

That's interesting. I wish I had more repair skills. I did wiring for a house once, which was pretty cool.

Actually wiring a house is pretty cool.  8)

I have never wired a house although I have done home electrical repair.

I'd like to gain some background in electrical engineering although I'm not sure how I'm going to do that. The mechanical end doesn't really interest me as much, although it can be very useful.

In the mean time, CS and pure math are way cheaper for me to study as you need very little equipment.

Quote
Maybe the socks go here:  http://www.worth1000.com/entries/57000/57019xEGC_w.jpg

Seems to be a broken link at this point.

It's not. Refresh.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: dawnsboy on June 30, 2008, 06:59:16 pm
Quote
Quote from: dawnsboy on Today at 10:05:06 PM
Quote
Maybe the socks go here:  http://www.worth1000.com/entries/57000/57019xEGC_w.jpg

Seems to be a broken link at this point.

It's not. Refresh.

Thanks!   ;D

Quote
I'd like to gain some background in electrical engineering although I'm not sure how I'm going to do that. The mechanical end doesn't really interest me as much, although it can be very useful.

In the mean time, CS and pure math are way cheaper for me to study as you need very little equipment.

You clearly have an aptitude for these subjects.  You will accomplish a great deal during your lifetime.



Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 30, 2008, 09:01:43 pm
Thanks!   ;D

Yeah, it's an annoying website that forbids hotlinking.

I generally use tinypic in these cases.

You clearly have an aptitude for these subjects.  You will accomplish a great deal during your lifetime.

Given a very liberal definition of 'accomplish'.

I recently found out that I wouldn't get A's in any class unless I knew the subject matter beforehand. That is why I am spending a whole bunch of time on material I know I will cover in the future—in effect, terminating my coursework before I (don't) actually do it.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on June 30, 2008, 09:04:04 pm
Oh..thanks..looks like patty's going to tell me a bed time story...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/

cheers
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: rbistolfi on June 30, 2008, 09:19:59 pm
say.. thanks for the new wallpaper.. it's.. Perfect ;)

speaking of mechanics

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/GreekScience/Students/Ellen/Museum.html

Excellent. Perseus project page is probably the best website ever. It is quite impressive that such quantity of classic texts is available for anybody wanting to read them.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on June 30, 2008, 09:43:57 pm
Oh..thanks..looks like patty's going to tell me a bed time story...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/

cheers

One of my favorites on that website is The Seven Evil Spirits: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/seven.htm

Another good one is the Lokasenna: http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe10.htm. Loki really shuts Frigga up in this one by calling her a ho.

Excellent. Perseus project page is probably the best website ever. It is quite impressive that such quantity of classic texts is available for anybody wanting to read them.

I am currently reading a history of ancient Greece.

Pretty cool.

Not one from the Perseus page, but on paper—the better way to read almost anything.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: dawnsboy on July 01, 2008, 02:01:15 pm
Epic Fail Guy

Quote
Given a very liberal definition of 'accomplish'.

I recently found out that I wouldn't get A's in any class unless I knew the subject matter beforehand.

Alas, a lesson we all must learn at some point.  Sigh....

Epic Fail Guy

Quote
That is why I am spending a whole bunch of time on material I know I will cover in the future—in effect, terminating my coursework before I (don't) actually do it.

You learn quickly!



Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on July 01, 2008, 06:23:29 pm
Quote
on paper—the better way to read almost anything.

Paper Rules.


Well..looks like my ISP is closeing the doors after all these years..will look for you if I can get another service..THANKS for everything..later
cheers
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: exeterdad on July 01, 2008, 06:41:50 pm
Yikes overthere!
Sorry to hear that.  Hope you can come back soon :)
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: MikeCindi on July 01, 2008, 06:49:16 pm
Now that's something to chew on! I hope there is another solution for you soon.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on July 01, 2008, 07:16:45 pm
Thanks..ya sucks..I've had this account ten years..it worked with all my modems and linux..hope the alternatives are as friendly..will soon know..guess just as well I donated all the antiques..one is easier to deal with or replace...
cheers
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on July 01, 2008, 07:46:32 pm
Consider satellite Internet if you live in an area that doesn't have a lot of infrastructure.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on July 02, 2008, 03:39:14 pm
Quote
Consider satellite Internet if you live in an area that doesn't have a lot of infrastructure.

Well I made inquirery today and discovered that satelite is available via contract..$1000 for equipment lease plus 100 per month plus 20 for dialup to cover sat down time via 12 month contract and download speeds are throtted...

 unlimited dialup package for 30 with a two week wait..but billing starts immidiately so I pay for two weeks wait. sat install is longer.. both have zero tech support for linux and assume it may work..but full tech support for windows.  If I choose dial up, I can add the windows accelorator software for just 5 dollars per month..

high speed is near and $35 per month so think I should continue the dialup service until it arrives. the benifits do not outway the cast for satelite. Down time should be minimal unless linux is an issue which is my problem.

my old service was 10 bucks unlimited and just worked.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: exeterdad on July 02, 2008, 04:09:37 pm
There are several free dialups all over the place.  Not talking Juno or that other famous crap.  Most of them are for certain areas.  Maybe you can get lucky?  Google for free dial up or dialup.  A slug of things come up.  I'd dig further but don't know your location.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on July 02, 2008, 05:00:54 pm
Thanks...I will do some googles..and look for additional options..those are the two more popular local fair..I tend to look for cheapest..being a skinflint..what ever that means..guess this is way off topic..oh well...sorry epic
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: exeterdad on July 02, 2008, 05:48:34 pm
Quote
oh well...sorry epic
Meh...  He'll get over it.  According to his other thread he's "self absorbed", so it won't hurt him to give a little ;)
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: Triarius Fidelis on July 02, 2008, 06:09:08 pm
overthere

High-speed Internet rules. It's worth the extra $25 / month.
Title: Re: here's something to chew on
Post by: overthere on July 02, 2008, 06:09:53 pm
 :) it is the same price as dialup if I wait a little bit. I refuse to shell 1000 to borrow a dish so I can pay 100 bucks a month for utube and better downloads...skinflint..someone who hates spending money or giving it away..although I wait with bated breath