Leaving the vector linux community.

[haywire]

After init3 command, I'm greeting with the text login. Login and root run driver install again, crashes before finishing.

I think I give up. I tried multiple hard drives because I thought it may be hardware. I sat through 6 or 7 clean installs and had the same problem (Driver install crashing in the middle) every time.

Steven

[haywire]

Forgot to mention, for what its worth, yes if they insist on leaving cairo in the default install, the bars should be reversed with the cairo dock on top and the "start menu" on the bottom.  I would not use cairo but I've been using a dock at the top for frequenty used apps for years.

Besides this all current VL users are used to it at the bottom. All windows users are used to it there also.

I don't like cairo though, too bouncy, Eye candy thats not so great anyway so who cares. Too complicated a thing for a simple task (Launch common apps) Wbar I think its called would have been a much better choice if you want that mac bouncy app launcher style, with an interface that is simple and easy to use.  Me? I just use a panel and put my app launchers there.

From what I tested, vl7 is working great except for nvidia drivers won't install and therefore compiz won't work. Can you guys put the old nvidia installer at initial install back in for rc2? In 6.0 the nvidia drivers were just installed during initial install. I had 3 computers all with nvidia cards and vector saw and installed them all, all different nvidia cards. Why would you pull out such a great thing from the installer?

Steven

Steven

[uelsk8s]

the nvidia drivers, like most other software just keep growing. they no longer fit on the iso with everything else.
you can download them here: http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/veclinux-7.0/kernels/drivers/vlnvidia-7.0-x86-2vl70.txz
install the pkg then run vxconf from init 2.
you may also need to remove the noveau kernel module before running vconf

[GrannyGeek]

Good lord. I must say I don't understand the mindset behind all these complaints. They're all adjustable.

First of all, in Windows you can have the Taskbar on any of the four edges of the screen. I know some users who prefer to have the Taskbar on the top and also a few who like it on the side. So it's simply not true that all Windows users expect it on the bottom. The Mac puts that stuff on top. So does Gnome. In XFce you can have it wherever you want it. Just drag the Panel to the edge you want it and there you go. I like it full width on the bottom and I detest Hide the Panel. If it's not a laptop, I'd suggest getting a monitor large enough so you have the screen space for it. (only half joking here)

I also hate the mostly transparent Panel that is the default for XFce in VL7. Simple solution--right click on the Panel and choose whether you want any transparency and how much if you do.

I don't like Cairo-Dock or the other Dock (GTK? GLX?), so duh--I just close it and make sure it's not set to start up again. I know lots of people like it and it's Mac-like. I didn't like Wbar either. Simple solution--don't use it.

This stuff is all so customizable. It just takes a few minutes of poking around for the settings and you can have things exactly the way you want them. I've never installed *any* operating system where I was completely happy with it out of the box. But it's a small matter to make it the way I want it. Defaults can't please everybody.

With old ATI cards, there is no support from ATI for using the proprietary ATI driver with them. I don't know how far NVidia maintains backward compatibility with older cards. If the NVidia driver can't be installed, the alternatives are the open source nv and nouveau drivers. I don't know if they work with old NVidia cards, either.
--GrannyGeek

[stretchedthin]

the nvidia drivers, like most other software just keep growing. they no longer fit on the iso with everything else.
you can download them here: http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/veclinux-7.0/kernels/drivers/vlnvidia-7.0-x86-2vl70.txz
install the pkg then run vxconf from init 2.
you may also need to remove the noveau kernel module before running vconf

uelsk8s is right and I don't know why I did not think of it.  Noveau drivers are now used by the vl7.0 setup by default.  It is the most likely reason for you system crashes.  I've made that mistake myself but the system never crashed, just got a warning about noveau drivers.

uelsk8s provides the most elegant solution above, but for what it's worth you can still try the Nvidia's drivers the same way you will just need to use vxconf and set yourself up with the vesa drivers before attempting the proprietory driver install.  Most likey uelsk8's already has the same proprietary driver in his package.

[haywire]

Make room for the nvidia install then, its more important than some of the fluff your including space wise on the initial install. if a user can't get his hardware working easily, he's gone. Most users would never put the time in that I just did trying to make it work.

I consider myself a fairly technical person. I kept trying to fix this where most people would give up. In one instance of nvidia install, it mentioned the noveau drivers and offered a way to disable them. did so, repeated and attempted install again. Still crashes this time with no noveau warning.

That was just one of the 6 or so attempts.

Now being in linux limbo my choices are downgrade to vl6 with older or default install xfe so everything works, find a new distro, or wait for 7.
Maybe this thread title should be changed to "trying to stay in the vector linux community."

I'd like to stay, but please look at these things from a user's perspective. The nvidia drivers being removed from initial install is a bad idea. That is, unless your sure the manual driver install will work on most machines equipped with nvidia video cards. Worked great in vl6 on initial install. Why change that? It was a huge strength to starting out. Beautiful accellerated video right out of the box. Lets remove that and put in cairo dock instead? Are you kidding me?

"Speed, performance, stability, these are attributes that set VectorLinux apart in the crowded field of Linux distributions."
Really? Lets let them fight with their install for three days trying to get video drivers working. Yeah thats a good idea. The correct drivers = speed. The right drivers = performance.. The right drivers working out of the box = stability.

Please don't mistake my passion for insult. This is just what I feel. You may continue to disagree. Steven

[haywire]

Get space for nvidia initial install -

1) You have 3 or 4 different media players. Remove them all in favor of one which will play audio as well as video. There is your space.

2) No one will use inkscape out of the box, remove that and a few other smaller apps to make room.

3) Drastic, remove gimp. Gimp is easy to install if a user wants it.

4) Cairo dock - what a hog of space. Kill that and give us drivers so our computers work right after initial install. If you want a pretty launcher I can make you one that will take no space at all on the install. Its called a panel.

Just my thoughts on 7. Steven

[hata_ph]

One need to use the propriatory nvidia driver only is he/she need 3D acceleration. If the noveau opensource driver work fine I dun think it is a big deal to use the nvidia driver. If some one want to use the nvidia driver once can download it from the net and install it by themself. Adding more package to VL will make the ISO size become bigger and bigger.

Like I say before not everyone use compiz and that mean 3D composition is an accessories. stretchedthin have make a tutorial/guide for anyone who want to use the nvidia driver and anyone one can do it. if you got any problem can ask in the forum.

[haywire]

But thats just it... Installing it after initial install does not work. It used to work right out of the box in vl 6.0. Check my nightmare trying to get it working. I could try some more video cards if you like, but this one is no go after many attempts. Always worked out of the box in vl6. It not working in vl7 means vl7 is worse than vl6. Why upgrade if vl7 offers less "speed,stability, performance."? It offers LESS. Thats called a downgrade in performance, stability and ease of use. Thats a big negative when considering options.

People who don't use compiz would still benefit from the faster, more performance boosted accellerated graphics driver. Its lucicrous to leave it out of the initial install for size reasons when you have so much garbage that is unimportant also included.

Your also risking alienating EVERY user who finds compiz essential. They install, have endless problems getting proper drivers and compiz working, they move on. Compiz working out of the box would be ideal. If a user dosn't want to use it, don't change to compiz as window manager, but its there in your tray waiting for you if you need or want it. Like it or not many people want compiz. Even if not to use just to show off. Its worth the time making sure it works well.

The compiz interface is the future of desktop linux. Vector has always been strong in desktop, so you can take the lead again or stay in the shadows. How many new users do you think you'll gain if compiz works right out of the box if you have a supported ati, intel or nvidia video card? How many will you lose if it stays broken or very difficult to get working? Now look at some of the garbage you have included on the initial install. Whats more important? - Steven

[hata_ph]

Pls understand VL7 is still in RC stage. VL would welcome any volunter to test and feedback what ever problem their encounter on their hardware. Positive feedback is always welcome.

BTW, another man's garbage may be another man's treasure...if you know what I mean  

May I ask do VL7 rc1 grapic not working out of the box for you or not working with compiz only?

[stretchedthin]

the nvidia drivers, like most other software just keep growing. they no longer fit on the iso with everything else.
you can download them here: http://vectorlinux.osuosl.org/veclinux-7.0/kernels/drivers/vlnvidia-7.0-x86-2vl70.txz
install the pkg then run vxconf from init 2.
you may also need to remove the noveau kernel module before running vconf

Kind of feal like this whole dialog is my fault. Really I should have just let you know to switch out of noveau and into vesa as you driver before following the steps of the video and you would be done and  spinning your compiz cube by now.
but here is my 2 cents worth.
  Your right dev's could chop a few things to include the NVidia drivers, but what do we chop to include the ATI drivers.  Can't justify supporting only one half of the graphic card user base now really can we.  Also, these each have to be a collection of drivers all NVidia cards are not created equal so as NVidia or ATI pump out new cards the driver collection becomes bigger and bigger.  We can't move to dvd because too many of vl's base users have older hardware with only cd capability.  That really is vl's core strength, giving older hardware a new life.  Luckily by crafting the distro that way it also brings blazing speed to new hardware.
So anyway, there is the delema. The dev's would without question have to continually shrink the distro with each release inorder to fit ever growing collections of graphics drivers.

Alternatively, the drivers could be made available in the repo and a menu entry could be added to system menu "Install propriatory graphics" or some such name.  This would be a bit of work but a more likely path for the future.


I myself prefer installing the drivers directly from NVidia or ATI's site for this reason..they update them.  The driver that was included with vl60 for my card is now two years old. The driver I put in my NVidia machine yesterday from thier site is two weeks old.

Your thoughts.

[haywire]

Its no one's fault I simply can't get it working. I'm willing to give it another try from a clean install. I'm not sure I understand, your telling me to disable noveau, then install this kernal module?

Steven

[GrannyGeek]

Get space for nvidia initial install -

1) You have 3 or 4 different media players. Remove them all in favor of one which will play audio as well as video. There is your space.

2) No one will use inkscape out of the box, remove that and a few other smaller apps to make room.

3) Drastic, remove gimp. Gimp is easy to install if a user wants it.

4) Cairo dock - what a hog of space. Kill that and give us drivers so our computers work right after initial install. If you want a pretty launcher I can make you one that will take no space at all on the install. Its called a panel.

I think your ideas for what to leave out are TERRIBLE! First of all, not everyone has NVidia graphics. Probably less than half do. The rest are ATI, Intel, or whatnot.

Next, not everyone wants compiz, which is so important to you. I've never liked it and will never use it. I suppose I could with the nouveau driver, which is what's being used in my Sempron computer (which has an NVidia graphics card). hardinfo says I have Direct Rendering with the nouveau driver. I don't know about such things, but isn't direct rendering 3D? Of course, since I don't like compiz and I don't do games or anything else 3D, it doesn't matter to me whether or not nouveau is providing it.

I did install the proprietary NVidia driver in beta2 or so of VL7. I downloaded it from NVidia. When the next release of VL7 came out, I decided to give nouveau a try. It's working fine for me, so at this point I don't plan to install the NVidia driver unless the earth transforms itself and I get a second monitor so I can have two at once. I strongly doubt that will happen, as I'd rather just get a larger monitor (the monitor on this computer is 1600x1200, 21 inches).

>> No one will use inkscape out of the box >>

And you know this how??? Inkscape is one of my must-have applications and there is NO WAY I'd want it left out. Frankly, I don't mind installing with GSlapt. That's what I do with my V6 Light computers. They're actually anything but light by the time I get everything installed on them that I want. I'm with hata_ph on this. It may be garbage to you but to me it's treasure.

Same for Gimp. And unless there is a good package in the repos, it's not easy to install at all. The proprietary NVidia drivers are a lot easier.

>> Cairo dock - what a hog of space >>

And yet, a lot of people love it. I don't like it--it gets stopped immediately on my systems and does not run again. It's eye candy that I can do without--kinda like compiz.

>> The compiz interface is the future of desktop linux.  >>

Not anymore. Desktop operating systems are gravitating toward interfaces influenced by touchscreens. We see that in Ubuntu's Unity, it's coming in Windows 8, and the Mac is also going that way. I haven't been thrilled with touchscreen yet. I have a Nook Color and while the touchscreen is a good option on a tablet, I wouldn't want it on a desktop where I'd have to hold my arm up and reach out to my monitor. But until I try it, I wouldn't pass judgment.

The reason for moving to touchscreen is that tablets and smartphones are growing in users while desktops and traditional laptops are losing users. The idea is that a more or less common interface will be easier for users influenced by smartphones and tablets.

It may be that VectorLinux needs to think more in terms of DVD installation or an ISO that won't fit on one CD. Even an old computer can have a DVD drive and while I appreciate the value of keeping old hardware alive, there comes a point when the old hardware is so "out of it" that the user is paying a severe penalty. It's time to bite the bullet and get something newer. You can pick up used computers for low prices or even free.

>> Like it or not many people want compiz. Even if not to use just to show off.  >>

Did you really want to say that?<g> Speaking as a granny, "showing off" seems awfully juvenile to me. What do you do? Have a bunch of geeky guys stand around your computer while you try to wow them with all the eye candy it can do? Let some other distro go after that crowd and VL can appeal to those who use their computers seriously, not to impress their friends.
--GrannyGeek

[haywire]

Granny we'll agree to disagree. I actually use the compiz cube interace to keep all my most used apps open at all times. After you get used to this, its really hard to go back to flatworld.

I tried installing the vlnvidia module. If I untar it, it unzips to install sbin and usr folders on my desktop.

open a terminal in install folder, sh doinst.sh does nothing. Am I missing something?

Steven

[haywire]

I tried doing a text login, run vxconf. Told it to use the default vesa xorg.conf.

Reboot. Okay looks like I'm in vesa now because its 800x600.

Tried to go back to init2 and run the nvida graphics drivers install. Again it crashes before the drivers finish installing.

Oh yeah, leaving this out of the initial install is a great idea, because all users are going to keep trying to install a simple video card driver for 3 days. Yeah thats a great idea for gaining new users. Most users would simply give up and try the next disto.

The right time to install the proper video drivers is at initial install. You don't muck up the system with the wrong drivers first and expect the user to fix everything that got screwed up on initial install. Most users, especially new ones won't get very far with this.

Doing a new clean install where I will tell it to use vesa xorg.conf then trying again.