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Author Topic: Are Vector installation CDs UEFI-aware?  (Read 5670 times)
retired1af
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2013, 05:12:15 am »

As far as I know, the machine should boot properly with secure boot turned off. It's my understanding the user does not want to operate in this mode, however.

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ASUS K73 Intel i3 Dual Core 2.3GHz
Dark Rider
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Posts: 65


« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2013, 07:49:04 am »

That's right.. I do not want to operate in this manner because manually switching like this is a pain in da butt.

I can switch manually if I really need to and in that I'm lucky. Many new PC's do not offer an option to use legacy bios mode. That being said, a hybrid UEFI/Legacy Bios mode machine is not a true legacy bios machine it's a UEFI machine with a legacy bios compatibility layer with scaled down legacy bios functionality (from what I understand), which still means everything you try to do may or may not work as your used to it working. To ensure everything does work properly you either need a bootloader made for your OS or wait until Linux gets that secure boot key from Microsoft.

Edit:  Yes, Win 8 will still work at least for me in legacy bios mode but it is not ideal to operate this way .. many people say why use UEFI at all 1) because this legacy bios mode is a scaled down version and may not work as you like and 2) it's supposed to be so much better optimized causing the hardware to work much better in your system and giving you more control over the options you have. ( I know, this still remains to be seen.) I'm just going on what I've read so far, and am by no means able to verify any of this.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 07:58:45 am by Dark Rider » Logged
Dark Rider
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 05:38:18 pm »

After much more searching and reading I have made a decision. Screw UEFI and Secure Boot and possibly Microsoft too. I'm going back to Legacy Bios and I'm going to install Vector.

This is like, Sure Windows XP can do 64 bit (at the time) but nobody has 64 bit apps for it and the implementation is buggy. I'm sure some of you remember that. That's how I feel about UEFI. I'm not keen on Microsoft's stance where if you want to dual boot with Windows now, you have to BUY their signed secure boot key. I hear this cost 100 dollars. How about Vector charge 200,000 dollars to Microsoft for the ability of Windows users to dual boot with Vector in UEFI LOL. I'm sure if distros started doing that, MS would quickly see the error of their ways and give out free boot keys like hotcakes.

The Linux Foundation's solution of a prebootloader that gives the ability to the user authorize the install, would be best if they can ever get it working. There is source code on the site anyone can play with. I however am not a coder. This would keep OS makers from having to get a key from Microsoft. Of course this only applies if your trying to dual boot with Windows 8 in UEFI mode.

For a dual, triple or quad booter UEFI mode now makes no sense. I need Windows, Vector, an Ameiga OS  and other non Linux OS's like Haiku. It's just not worth the fighting the UEFI to try to get all of these working. My best advice is build your rig yourself or use Legacy Bios mode.

Edit: After more research, I have to mention that the problem is two fold. First there is Distro compatibility with UEFI itself and second the problems you have if Secure Boot is enabled. I found out that even though Microsoft requires OEM's to ship new Windows 8 PC's with Secure Boot enabled, they do allow for the User to disable Secure Boot while still operating in UEFI Mode. That info is here: http://superuser.com/questions/525889/if-i-buy-a-computer-with-windows-8-and-secure-boot-will-i-still-be-able-to-inst Seems this info is part of the Microsoft Hardware requirements for non ARM hardware. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/windows/hardware/jj128256 See sections 14,17 and 18.

My frustration is due to my HP computer not being able to turn off Secure Boot which would allow me to try to install a distro in UEFI mode. I have contacted HP for support on this. ( Hp is known for not allowing full access to bios functions and the service manual for my model doesn't even mention UEFI at all, it only mentions legacy bios functions.)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 12:59:27 pm by Dark Rider » Logged
nightflier
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Vectorian
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Posts: 4022



« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2013, 01:15:21 pm »

Thanks for that report. Being on the bleeding edge of hardware and/or software can be frustrating. I usually prefer to wait until things mature and there is stuff on the web to give you an idea what you're in for.
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retired1af
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Vectorian
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Posts: 1259



« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2013, 02:23:00 pm »

My entire take on UEFI is it's a way for Microsoft to bully the OEMs to include it with their hardware. When I purchased my notebook a few weeks ago, I ensured that it was NOT a Windows 8 machine.
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ASUS K73 Intel i3 Dual Core 2.3GHz
Dark Rider
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Posts: 65


« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2013, 04:47:04 pm »

nightflier,

I should probably create a new thread for this but as i'm afraid the answer is going to be short so I hesitate.. LOL

After talking to HP and trying various things I am now able to disable Secure Boot while still using UEFI. I want to install Vector and Mint 14 to triple boot with Windows 8. I have set both up on usb drives of their own. The plan was to install Vector first them Mint and let Grub find all Os's in my system so I can triple boot. I know Mint can be read at boot but Vector can't - even with secure boot disabled. Any way around this that you know of?

If not, I'll just go back to legacy bios - but I have to try. My wife says I'm stubborn that way.
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overthere
Vectorian
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Posts: 1274



« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2013, 05:14:12 pm »

The windows 8 preview was enough for me, it did not get as much attention as some may think it deserves. It did look strangly familiar.



Was curious to see if any manufactures opt out of the no lock and key no windows 8 licience.
suse is enjoying the silk sheets but red hat may be paying some serious money..all very interesting to read about. microsofts has reduced its self to purchased patents and legal tricks akin to black mail.

http://www.geek.com/articles/news/redhat-will-pay-microsoft-to-ensure-fedora-18-runs-on-windows-8-pcs-2012061/

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-and-suse-extend-microsofts-controversial-novell-linux-pact/10164

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-20045551-75.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303916904577375502392129654.html

edit: This post may seem uninteresting and off topic however the uefi IS replacing bios for some good reasons and appears shadowed by microsofts abuse of one of the options. Remote access is a potential issue and a lock is not a bad thing, but forcing manufactures to key it only to windows is a mistake.

 I for one, although I will buy a new computer at some point, will not choose one that requires a microsoft approval. Linux is perfectly capable of installing on uefi/efi and it is not yet illegal for a manufacturer to produce a computer that will not install windows. It is my hope that the linux community in general will strive toward an independence rather than allow microsoft to force payment for the use of a computer.

Ya, I know, sorry.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 08:18:05 pm by overthere » Logged

Everything Is Relative
di98jgu
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Posts: 11


« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 05:21:30 am »

This link is missing

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2aq5M3Q76U

EFI and Linux: the future is here, and it's awful - Matthew Garrett

So the boot loader is greater than the Linux kernel (in size).
...And the kernel is without bugs.

So the future is to replace something that work with something that will
open a new window of opportunities for troublemakers and no end
of problem for those who try to maintain it.  Smiley
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Dark Rider
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Posts: 65


« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2013, 07:09:26 am »

Matthew Garrett's contribution to the Fedora community not withstanding, I'm not so sure I trust him. He makes statements that are clearly Not True such as:

Quote
    Windows 8 certification does not require that the user be able to disable UEFI secure boot, and we've already been informed by hardware vendors that some hardware will not have this option.
   
    A system that ships with UEFI secure boot enabled and only includes Microsoft's signing keys will only securely boot Microsoft operating systems.
http://mjg59.livejournal.com/

All he would have had to do was actually read the Windows Hardware Certification for Client and Server Systems document as mentioned above, sections 14,17 and 18.

This still does apply to ARM based systems though for what good reason I can't find. Luckily they are no where near as popular yet as IBM x86 architecture. I think what happened was Garrett, The Linux Foundation and others got wind of Microsoft's requirement of OEM's to ship Windows 8 PC's with secure boot enabled, jumped to conclusions and panicked. This spread like wildfire along with allegations of Microsoft being evil enough to do this on purpose to keep people from using other operating systems with Windows 8. Well it actually didn't happen that way and you realize this once you understand what secure boot is, how it works and why it was created. I do think its horrible Microsoft is exploiting secure boot to profit off of at the expense of other operating system creators. I can see it perhaps if both the OS and hardware was built proprietary by Microsoft as Apple does but since the hardware is not, (unless you buy Microsoft's tablet) I think they are wrong to dictate what you can do with your hardware.

Hey nightflier don't forget my post above asking about making Vector boot up in UEFI with secure boot disabled. I know your busy and may have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to even be able to formulate a good answer (due to lack of info on UEFI). I am looking into other options to making this work myself and If I come up with working solutions, I'll share them. It looks promising though. I hope to be able to triple boot Vector, Mint and Windows 8 in UEFI by tonight.. I'll have time to test it then and try out some possible solutions.
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Dark Rider
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Posts: 65


« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2013, 08:23:53 am »

Edit: I just watched the above video and at 40 minutes in, Garrett does admit that Microsoft allows the ability to turn off secure boot. He claims Microsoft had changed their policy so the post above must be much older than the video. Glad I watched that video because I would have been spreading disinfo about Garrett. But see.. this is how stuff gets flying around the net and causing problems. Garrett should update his journal entries to reflect this change IMO.
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nightflier
Administrator
Vectorian
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Posts: 4022



« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2013, 10:13:29 am »

@Dark Rider,

Anything you find out about this issue would be welcomed.
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Dark Rider
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Posts: 65


« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2013, 08:43:47 am »

I give up. I have fought with this for two weeks now.

The tool rEFInd is a boot manager and can also act as a boot loader or at least it can allow chain loading to and from a bios based system and a UEFI based system - sometimes.. this is iffy depending on your hardware, your install method and how your OEM set up it's UEFI. . So when it works, you can use it to dual boot a UEFI system from a Legacy Bios system and vice versa. AFAIK this is the only tool Linux has that has this ability. If anyone wants to play with this to try to get Vector working with a system thats using UEFI mode they can read about it here: http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/

When Vector does try to implement UEFI and or Secure Boot support don't be surprised if it takes forever to get to work and get the bugs out. UEFI itself is very buggy causing tons of problems even with big distros that does have this support, Fedora, Ubuntu. Unless you have to have hardware access to your devices before an operating system boots or are using a drive larger than 2 TB's there is no good reason to use UEFI right now. One problem is many new Windows 8 users who have OEM systems with Secure Boot enabled don't know the best solution is to uninstall the OS and reinstall it in Legacy Bios mode. Poof, no more UEFI problems. LOL It's no good just to disable Secure Boot or to simply switch to Legacy Bios mode.. for best results a clean install of Win 8 must be done in Legacy Bios mode, otherwise you still have problems.
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retired1af
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Vectorian
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Posts: 1259



« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2013, 09:09:27 am »

Problem with that solution is very few systems come with restore discs now. You have to create them yourself. And I'd be willing to bet that very few users go to that trouble.
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ASUS K73 Intel i3 Dual Core 2.3GHz
hata_ph
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Vectorian
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Posts: 3256


-- Just being myself --


« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2013, 04:42:04 pm »

Linux Format issue 168 have an article about UEFI on linux...you can read about it Smiley

http://www.linuxformat.com/archives?issue=168

or you can download it from hxxp://www.rlslog.net/linux-format-uk-march-2013-p2p/  Grin
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Dark Rider
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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2013, 06:14:23 pm »

Yes, people like to mess with their systems before they make Recovery Disks. This is BAD policy. I'm using a new fast HP laptop. I didn't like the idea it has Windows 8 ( I was a win 7 user) and I didn't know it was set up with UEFI and Secure Boot enabled - There was no info on this at Best Buy or any website to get product information. I refused to take it back because for 400 bucks with a quad core and 8 gigs of ram plus a good video card (uses up to 4 gigs for video ram) for gaming there was no way I was gonna beat this price. In my 20 years of PC gaming, this is the most powerful system i've had and i spent every dime I could afford to get it. Luckily for me, i can disable secure boot or  switch to legacy bios mode if I need to but HP gives Zero support for using UEFI - it's not even mentioned in the service and maintenance guide. They are so clueless, that if you call them asking about UEFI they will tell you to contact Microsoft- which is stupid because Microsoft didn't make or install the bios.. they only require HP uses it. This is my second but last HP ever. Otherwise HP had been good to me with my old Compaq with Win 7.. it's just these new issues that make me hate them.

The neat thing though about this system, is i can use any Microsoft disk to reinstall a clean version of the OS because the product keys and CD keys are embedded in the bios. Thats what i did from an Windows 8 RTM ISO I downloaded via a torrent and installed it through Legacy Bios mode. This is perfectly legal and does not void the HP warranty.
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