VL pre-installed

[rbistolfi]

Linux is changing rapidly, faster than most of us can keep up with. These changes are bringing Linux into the Enterprise arena. Why should we not be in that arena??? Again I am all ears.

My personal answer: because I dont want to. Sorry, but I dont like it. Linux is the demostration of this: "things can be made in a different way, and have success".

just some support to become self-sufficient, is that to much to ask?

No, lets find a way. Once again, we are not against pre-paid support, or whatever. We think this must to be added to the current system. No payment for forum, no payment for downloads. If Vector Linux wants to offer paid support, I will help. If Vector Linux wants me to sell CD's on my street, I can do that, just let me know. But keep the current system working.

If financial support is needed, I would like to see us go transparent - 'open,' if you will - with our finances as an organization. Then, I would like to see a fundraising campaign based on the presented need.

Right now we beg for donations on the home page suggesting a need, but as an end-user that is removed from those costs, it just sounds like every other project saying "we need your support." If I were able to see "Cost XYZ + Cost ABC = Total Cost" I would be much more likely to contribute.

Replacing this forum with a paid-for option (my understanding...?) does not sit well for me, and I believe it would drive users away.

I agree, I cant say it better.

This is going to happen in one form or another; we do not have a choice!! I do not have a choice.

That is no true, we do have a choice. We are taking it rigth now. That is a M$ tactic, they used to say that, "Windowz is the only way, you dont have a choice". They were wrong. And VL is the probe. Always will be a choice.

[LLL]

Doesn't "choice matter"?! Sorry for getting tongue-in-cheek, but it is our current tagline!

I think choice is key in terms of VL-delivery of product and support:

- We could make the 'Deluxe' versions more evident/advantageous, but still offer the free downloadable ISO = choice.
- Current forum or pre-paid support (where fast, thorough responses are guaranteed) = choice.

Again, if fundraising is necessary (which I trust it is), let's re-think and maximize on what we've got.

[Triarius Fidelis]

I also agree with LLL about the costs transparency: user will be much more likely to contribute if they know exactly where the money will be spent. Once again, the Gentoo Wiki fundraiser had a line up of what the money would be used for:
http://gentoo-wiki.com/Gentoo_Linux_Wiki:Fundraiser_Sept_2006

What will the funds be used for

    * Bandwidth costs
    * Hard drive to store backups from wikimasterv2 to squiddy
          o Backups are curently starting to exceed 20GB
    * RAM upgrade for squiddy to 2GB
    * A new development machine

Would it be OK if we used some of that money to subsidize Ballmer's meds?

[rbistolfi]

  There is no money enough in the world for Ballmer's meds

Doesn't "choice matter"?! Sorry for getting tongue-in-cheek, but it is our current tagline!

I think choice is key in terms of VL-delivery of product and support:

- We could make the 'Deluxe' versions more evident/advantageous, but still offer the free downloadable ISO = choice.
- Current forum or pre-paid support (where fast, thorough responses are guaranteed) = choice.

Again, if fundraising is necessary (which I trust it is), let's re-think and maximize on what we've got.

You are rigth again LLL!

[bigpaws]

EDIT: Exeterdad beat me, that is the tool we need.

Quote from: exeterdad on May 12, 2007, 10:45:44 PM
If I was to pay for support, I'd expect someone a bit more one on one. I don't think a secret place on a free for everyone else message board would cut it.

Would this server handle an additional php solution?  How about something like this?

http://www.osticket.com/index.php  Something like that would make paying customers happy.  And it's  open source as well.

That is the kind of tool I had in mind!

The tool would be nice if it was still being developed. After taking the time
to research that tool it is not a good choice. There is a version 2 that has turned
into vaporware according to the forum. It is important that research take place
when making a suggestion.

I agree that there will be a change. Voicing opinions is good. Offering suggestions make a
good start.

I am seeing that there are now ideas that are comming forth to allow Vector to grow.

Support ideas like that proposed by rbistolfi is something that can be done in a
short amount of time.

The suggestion that paid Linux gurus' answer questions and take care of the service is
a fine idea, not practical. The average fee for service is $150.00/hr with no warranty other
than giving the best possible answer. Why is that you ask. Not all questions relating to
hardware or software is able to have a solution, due the primary market being for MS.

The tech support team members also get paid very well. The simple start costs to place in
context $100.00/hr X 24 hours X 365 is $876,000.00. That does not include the servers
and support infrastructure needed for the staff. Seems out of reach, it isn't in the context.

Think about some of the costs that have already been incurred. Servers being hosted and
using alot of bandwidth. Then distributing the Versions, more costs not incurred by us but
by someone else. These fees add up and are being covered by a very small group.

What is being proposed is starting small and easy with a fee. Nothing that can't be done
on a small budget. There are going to be problems and glitches looking forward will get
past this.

Contributions need not be in the form of money. How about a statement pure and simple
about what you would be able or willing to contribute. Something like I use alot of graphics,
put me down for that area. This would be a great help.

I see an interest in this forum to allow Vector to grow, along with what is thought will work and
what will not. Let's finish this off by saying what we will do.

Sorry about the long post.

Bigpaws

[easuter]

I wasn't actually suggesting we pay full-timers to do support, I was merely pointing out that that was what other companies do for their support model and that they can afford it: Ubuntu being lucky enough to have Canonical as its slush-fund.

[Masta]

I don't that in any way this topic was meant to actually flush out all free forum support. Clearly after you read throughout, it wouldn't affect what we already have going. It is just an idea offered to get us to use our thinkers to come up with some more efficient ways which would better support a paying user, and at the same time support the continuous development and movement of VL.

Making this distro is one thing, and in some extent, it costs someone some money somewhere, yet to add everything else on top of it, like web page, servers for downloading and hosting, advertising, materials, etc. etc. , it costs and costs again. VL doesn't exactly have a wealthy, corporate funding backing it up and paying for the considerable costs. 

VL needs to think some marketing strategy to some degree, to assists in it's expenses. At the same time, we don't want to wash out the high points of the distro. That's already very clear from previous replies. So we "get the picture" that's not going to fly. Question now becomes, what can VL do to better support those who pay for the distro? It's common sense that we don't want to "cut out" the free support that we already offer.  Please, keep this in mind as we hash this out in an encouraging manner. 

[rbistolfi]

The tool would be nice if it was still being developed. After taking the time
to research that tool it is not a good choice. There is a version 2 that has turned
into vaporware according to the forum. It is important that research take place
when making a suggestion.

Oops! Sorry about that, my mistake. The Docs section of the site say v2.0 is in progress, I shouldnt trust in just that. 

[exeterdad]

Actually the mistake was mine for throwing you a link not knowing that it was taken down due to bugs.

osticket was one of the softwares on a previous server of mine that you could click on it and it would auto install for you.  I remember installing it and checking it out and thinking it cool.

One of the things I like about it is the customer can interact with the interface via email or by actually visiting the site and filling out a help request.  Things are kept tidy, and the support staff can see all the requests at a glance to pick and choose tickets dealing with subjects that they feel strong in. 

There is another version out based upon the last stable version of osticket.  It's called eTicket.  Seems like the developers are squashing bugs right and left and the project seems very active.  They just had another release last month.

There doesn't seem to be a working demo though.  I downloaded it and will set it up a demo for VL users to see what they think in the next couple days (kinda busy here).  If someone wants to take the bull by the horns and set a demo up before me, there wouldn't be any hard feelings.

Here's eTicket:  http://eticket.sourceforge.net/

[GrannyGeek]

I cannot support the idea that anyone would have to pay a fee, even a small fee, to use our VectorLinux support forums. I think this would be a kiss of death for VectorLinux.

I just did a check of Ubuntu, OpenSuSE, Fedora, Mandriva, Freespire, and Zenwalk, and they *all* have free user support forums similar to ours. VectorLinux is great, but it's not so great that no other distro would be satisfactory. Who is going to bother with VL if there is no free support? People will simply go elsewhere.

I can certainly see the need for a better source of income for VectorLinux. I don't think charging for forums is the way to get it. Surely there are better approaches. If straits are dire, I think this should be made clear to users of VL. For example, I've bought Deluxe CDs of several versions but I didn't buy a Deluxe CD for 5.8 Standard. I decided to simply make a donation in the same amount. However, my husband spent too much on Christmas gifts and I was waiting until we replenished our finances. Now that I know the need is great, I'll send in my donation this week.

I think VL has been too low-key about asking for money. This gives people the idea that the distro is free. Well, it is--except that reality should dawn on people that there is no such thing as a free lunch. SOMEBODY has to be paying the bills. There should be an honor system: decide what you can afford and then PAY IT. For a lot of us, it's certainly more than $25 for a copy of the distro. For others, the amount they can afford will be smaller, and some can't afford anything. If the many who can afford to pay a fair amount for VL would pay it, VL could continue to be free for those who can't afford to pay.

Maybe we could have a couple of fundraisers a year. What about a raffle? I'll bet we could get donations of things like Linux books, hardware, maybe even a computer from businesses that would benefit from the positive publicity.

Cash donations above a certain amount would get you a raffle e-ticket. The larger the donation, the more e-tickets you get, thus increasing your chances of winning a prize.

I don't think desktop Linux has solved the problem of making a profit and thus being a viable business. Big outfits like RedHat and SuSE make money by selling support to businesses as well as charging for their software. Fedora and OpenSuSE are testing grounds for what will make it into the commercial distributions. Mandriva sells software and support and, as I understand it, has rather precarious finances. They almost went out of business a couple of years ago. I hope they're doing better now. Xandros is supposed to be on life support. It's looking to get more into the server and enterprise markets, where there is money to be made. Ubuntu has big bucks behind it--it can afford to give the distro away. Note that Ubuntu is also going into servers and the enterprise--chasing the money. Freespire had millions from Michael Robertson's millions behind it when he started Linspire (then known as Lindows) and they got millions in their settlement with Microsoft when they gave up the "Lindows" name. I don't know--is any desktop distro making a profit on software sales alone?
--GrannyGeek

[Lyn]

My take on this is that the forums for those that by preinstalled Vector or premium versions of the distro should have access to expert forums where they will swiftly get answers to their problems, including by email.  I have no objection to this - but the idea that they should pay to access these forums I don't think will fly. 

[Masta]

It looks to me as though people are getting the wrong idea here. NOBODY is taking away the free forums. Nobody is charging for what is the free forum. The suggestion of a special part of the forum for buyers is what's be talked about. This is exactly what I was trying to say in a much nicer way in my long winded post above. Get the hint now? 

[bigpaws]

Those that support Vector Linux are saying there is a need for
change. The change being Vector should be self supporting.

"When Choice Matters" it does matter it is the choice of those
paying the bills that Vector become self supporting. The
mention of that this was not a choice but a direction per se,
is not true. One choice could be to allow Vector to sink
or swim. A choice to offer support was made to Vector from
MadTux, not all the idea of Vector. The choice was to go for it.
We have a choice to be involved in Vector at a new level or sit
back and watch it slip.

No support is free. Time is spent supporting Vector by many
members very small in proportion to the user base. The cost of
this forum and it's bandwidth are not free. Linux support is comming
in a paid form. Why not get involved here and consider the possibility
that this project can grow?

Linux allows anyone to get involved regardless of who you are or
where you live. No need for a college education or an IT background.
Why not see what can be done?

I believe the support program being setup has a good possibility of
success so long as FUD does not create stagnation.

It is the hope that everyone that is interested in the support system
stand up. Let it  be known what contribution you are willing to make
for the success of this project and community.

Bigpaws

[nubcnubdo]

If VL offers both free and paid support, the two support modes should be sufficiently different that the client doesnt come to the conclusion he is being conned, when he realizes that he could just as easily obtain free support. I suggest keeping the forum free, and setting up an email list for paid support.

This is what soured me about Mandriva, the paid support, among other things, like being nagged to buy something. It struck me as a rip-off that I had to pay to get the whole package, when other distros offered the same for free, and especially since the support didn't fulfill expectations.

[easuter]

I know this isn't entirely on topic of support, but if VL is going to be pre-installed and shipped like other more mainstream distros shouldn't we also be worried about full GPL compliance