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Poll
Question: What would be the killer punch for VL 6 ?
Graphical Installer & VASM - 19 (16.5%)
Super fancy desktop (with Beryl, 3D driver, ...) - 15 (13%)
Great slapt-get based repository - 45 (39.1%)
Fast multimedia system (real-time kernel, jackd, ...) - 23 (20%)
Support thin client SOHO system (linutop, ...) - 7 (6.1%)
Other .... - 6 (5.2%)
Total Voters: 66

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Author Topic: The "Punch" for VL-6  (Read 25392 times)
JohnB316
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Vectorian
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Posts: 1346


Registered Linux User #386728


« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2007, 08:47:48 am »

I voted repo and VASM/installer.

In particular, I'd like to see the wall between SOHO and Standard torn down, and LiveCD too if possible.  Develop concurrently, release concurrently.

It would be very nice if we could do this. We just don't have enough active devs to do this at present. :-( If we had more people, then that would be another story. Bottom line: If you have the skills needed to help us, even in a limited way, please reach out for vector, Joe1962, Uelsk8s or me. We welcome the help, but you've got to stick with it. ;-)

I'd like to be able to start with an installation of Standard, add KDE and other SOHO apps, and end up with the same system as if I'd started with SOHO and added Xfce and other Standard apps.  In practice it doesn't quite work like that today.

Actually, when I built the KDE 3.5.6 packages for the VL 5.8 repository, I started from VL 5.8 Standard (5.8 SOHO was still in alphas then). The only change I made was to upgrade qt from 3.3.5 to 3.3.7 due to security fixes offered in qt-3.3.7.


Get all the install packages from both versions in one repo, and then build the ISOs directly from those packages.  I'd like to be able to use something like Jigdo to build my own ISO from the repo.  Heck, maybe even use it for the official ISOs?  Alphageek's Sligdo script/template for using Jigdo to build Slackware ISOs from the repo would probably be a good place to start.

Uelsk8s may be better able to speak to this than I, since he's the one that has been mastering the ISO images lately.

I've also been wondering if a common 'clean' environment for building packages with checkinstall would be helpful.  Something that would start with only the packages common to the common versions of both Standard and SOHO and then builds from there.  I'd like to easily be able to start it up, install the dependencies, build the package itself, shut it down, and have the install still be 'clean' for the next use.  The clean base itself would probably be read-only, and then use UnionFS or something to bring a writable drive in.  Obviously that's a lot like how LiveCDs work, so a LiveCD would probably be a good candidate for the clean base.  Otherwise, a separate install on a read-only partition, or maybe even something like VirtualBox or VMware could be used for the build environment.  The build environment should have access to the local package cache and install CD, since every time you use it it's only going to have a very minimal set of packages installed.

In theory this would be fine. However, some programs need deps that may not be present on the 'clean' environment, which may need yet other stuff... I've found this to be true in building KDE-related stuff. The compromise, at least for me, is to keep my build partition as clean as possible but not to ditch dependencies that I know I'll need later on.

Just my $0.02,
John
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VL 6.0 SOHO latest alpha on one box, VL 5.9 Lite on the other.
GrannyGeek
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2007, 09:35:08 am »

an app to set up your nfts drives with fuse
I'm sort of working on a universal mount helper gui. Perhaps planning is the better word for it though.

What's the difference between fuse and ntfs-3g? I'm having no problems mounting my NTFS drives with ntfs-3g enabled and so far I haven't had any problems writing to them. Writing to an NTFS drive is something I don't do often, however, and I don't think I'd do it to the drive that holds my XP system files.
--GrannyGeek
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Registered Linux User #397786

Happily running VL 7 Gold on  a Sempron LE-1300 desktop (2.3 GHz), 4 G RAM,  GeForce 6150 SE onboard graphics and on an HP Pavilion dv7 i7, 6 gigs, Intel 2nd Generation Integrated Graphics Controller
GrannyGeek
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2567


« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2007, 09:45:34 am »

If you compare standard with soho, standard just doesn't measure up in terms of completeness. And the apps just aren't as good as the ones bundled with soho. I think, especially in the multimedia area, standard needs improvement:

I can't agree with that, given that Standard is geared toward older systems and toward users like me who like to build a system from a basic foundation. I was content with Graveman but I like K3B more, so the other day I installed kdelibs and k3b from the VL repos. I don't have any really old systems and I'm overloaded with drive space; that's not true for many Standard users.

I added exaile to 5.8 Standard a long time ago. I don't see any need to have it included in the ISO. Those who want it can install the package easily. I don't know what streamtuner is. Apparently I haven't felt a need for it.

"Completeness" to me means I have the basic foundation sufficient to compile programs for which there is no package. Once the foundation is there, those who want more than the basic system provided by Standard can add what they want with gslapt.
--GrannyGeek
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Registered Linux User #397786

Happily running VL 7 Gold on  a Sempron LE-1300 desktop (2.3 GHz), 4 G RAM,  GeForce 6150 SE onboard graphics and on an HP Pavilion dv7 i7, 6 gigs, Intel 2nd Generation Integrated Graphics Controller
nubcnubdo
Vectorian
****
Posts: 675


« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2007, 12:39:47 pm »

I dont know the history of VL SOHO, but I would like to keep Standard and SOHO separate. I have always thought SOHO dilutes the efforts and effects of VectorLinux. I have not tried SOHO, but I wonder why we compete with the likes of PCLinuxOS, SUSE, Mandriva, Mepis, Kubuntu, etc. [thriving, popular distributions featuring KDE] How many people download and use SOHO versus the same for Standard? [This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious. An approximation in relative percentages or a ratio would be useful. I would guess Std:SOHO::3:1]

We need better power management for laptops, as was pointed out in a recent review. I dont agree with the reviewer who said there was redundancy in multimedia (SOHO). I like choice in multimedia.

I would like to see us establish a relationship with a manufacturer of miniPCs, where the attributes of VL will be put to greatest effect. A miniPC model in the range of 400mhz to 1.3ghz would be an ideal showcase for VL. I've compared: above 400mhz VL is faster than Puppy. The equipment here is not old problematic hardware (for which Puppy might be more adaptable); the miniPCs are brand new.
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3000.0
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 07:16:39 am by nubcnubdo » Logged
easuter
Global Moderator
Vectorian
*****
Posts: 2160



« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2007, 01:04:22 pm »

Quote
I have not tried SOHO, but I wonder why we compete with the likes of PCLinuxOS, SUSE, Mandriva, Mepis, Kubuntu, etc. How many people download and use SOHO versus the same for Standard?

VL SOHO is the fastest KDE distro I know of....
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nubcnubdo
Vectorian
****
Posts: 675


« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2007, 02:05:54 pm »

It's been six months since the first availability of VL 5.8 Standard GOLD, and still there is no live CD. At this rate, we wont have a final version of the live CD before VL 6.0 Std comes out. Presently, I must use VL 5.1.1 live CD to show off VectorLinux, to introduce people to VL 5.8. What is the cycle for a version of VectorLinux, the usual 6 months? one year? the next increment of Slackware? I'm not trying to be pushy, but the live CD should have been available within a month after VL 5.8 Std final, to have served its purpose.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 04:03:42 am by nubcnubdo » Logged
rbistolfi
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 2276


« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2007, 02:49:08 pm »

hmmm, I think you are rigth in your idea, nubcunubdo, but you already know the answer, since it is already answered on this forum: a small group of devs. THis doesnt mean you are wrong, the live cd should be out before std to do the job of claim for atention. May be one task to do is an efficient system to join contributors. I have no developer skills, so I cant help on those things, but may be in other way... I didnt find it yet. I think could be nice a way to show to the public a list of tasks and what are the skills needed to complete them. I guess the community could take some job, like maintaining the web site, and others not estrictly related with the development, so the devs could have more time for their main job. A "how to help" link in somewhere could be usefull too. The financial issue was already touched on this forum, and some ideas come out from there. I guess we dont have to live a possibilitie for explore, and find different ways to give VL the things it need.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 03:10:17 pm by rbistolfi » Logged

"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."
Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise.

--
Jumalauta!!
nightflier
Administrator
Vectorian
*****
Posts: 4018



« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2007, 05:12:32 pm »

How many people download and use SOHO versus the same for Standard?

Many of us enjoy the combination of VL speed and KDE features. I don't think it's mainly KDE which slows down the bigger, "fully automatic" distros. There is a lot of other software running in order to detect new hardware, provide every conceivable service and present neat effects. I am not saying that is bad, the point is that VL SOHO is not competing with the likes of Ubuntu etc..
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GrannyGeek
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Vectorian
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2007, 06:12:46 pm »

I'm not trying to be pushy, but the live CD should have been available a month after VL 5.8 Std final, to have served its purpose.

As far as I know, the LiveCD is not an official VectorLinux project. It's a volunteer effort and it gets done when it gets done. Did the older versions make it past the beta stage? I'm not sure about that.

I don't think there's any set purpose for the LiveCD. Some people like them to get an idea of what a distro is like. Others like them for making repairs and fixing up a system that is having problems. Some people like them for taking to computers and running Linux without actually installing it on the hard drive. I did that with a Knoppix CD a few years ago when we were visiting my brother-in-law and I didn't want to read my e-mail on his "real" system because if anything went wrong, I didn't want to get blamed.<g> So I used the Knoppix CD and read my Webmail that way.

Unless I'm prepared to jump in and do major work to help out, I wouldn't presume to complain that something wasn't ready on my schedule. Wink
--GrannyGeek
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Registered Linux User #397786

Happily running VL 7 Gold on  a Sempron LE-1300 desktop (2.3 GHz), 4 G RAM,  GeForce 6150 SE onboard graphics and on an HP Pavilion dv7 i7, 6 gigs, Intel 2nd Generation Integrated Graphics Controller
nubcnubdo
Vectorian
****
Posts: 675


« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2007, 06:49:19 pm »

Check out other distributions and see how many of their installation disks are live CDs as well. I'm looking at the list at Distrowatch: Most (75%) of the distros in the top 20 have live CD versions.

  1  Ubuntu - install disk is live CD
  2  openSUSE - install disk is live CD
  3  PCLinuxOS - install disk is live CD
  4  Fedora - live CD available*
  5  MEPIS - install disk is live CD
  6  Debian - no live CD
  7  Sabayon - install disk is live CD
  8  Mandriva - live CD Mandriva One
  9  Mint - install disk is live CD
10  DSL - live CD is install disk
11  KNOPPIX - live CD
12  Gentoo - install disk is live CD
13  Zenwalk - separate official live CD
14  Slackware - SLAX no live CD
15  CentOS - live CD available
16  Kubuntu - install disk is live CD
17  Vector
18  FreeBSD - http://www.freesbie.org/
19  Puppy - live CD is install disk
20  DreamLinux - install disk is live CD

* http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/11/1841241
« Last Edit: May 24, 2007, 07:47:14 pm by nubcnubdo » Logged
JohnB316
Administrator
Vectorian
*****
Posts: 1346


Registered Linux User #386728


« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2007, 07:30:26 pm »

FYI, SLAX is not an official Slackware project. Like VL, it's another of the derivatives of Papa Slack. To quote from the project's home page at http://www.slax.org :

Quote
SLAX is fast and beautiful Linux operating system which fits on small (3.14") CD-ROM disc. It runs directly from the CD (or USB) without installing. The Live CD described here is based on the Slackware Linux distribution and uses Unification File System (also known as unionfs), allowing read-only filesystem to behave as a writable one, saving all changes to memory.

Thus, it can be correctly said that Slackware does not have an official live CD, the article at linux.com notwithstanding.

Cheers,
John
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VL 6.0 SOHO latest alpha on one box, VL 5.9 Lite on the other.
nubcnubdo
Vectorian
****
Posts: 675


« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2007, 07:42:53 pm »

Quote
FYI, SLAX is not an official Slackware project.

That's why I put it in parenthesis, it not being official. Now struckthrough. The "official" count is still 16 of 20.

What about VL Live CD, John, is that official?

Debian:
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianLive/Why

EDIT: With VL LiveCD official, the count is 17 of 20.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 03:12:16 am by nubcnubdo » Logged
uelsk8s
Administrator
Vectorian
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Posts: 2504



« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2007, 08:13:41 pm »

The VL-Live cd's have been Officially endorsed by Vector himself.

The RC1 release of 5.8 std livecd was released  on: March 05, 2007
in its bug thread there was 1 report so either it was close to perfect or not many tested it.
It will be finished soon along with the SOHO livecd

Uelsk8s
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blurymind
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 1082



« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2007, 01:21:26 am »

live cd's are a great way to show the user the goods of a distro in a quick way,but they are not good for install cds. I think that we should have live cds and thats where uelsk8s does his job great, but we shouldnt make the mistake that ubuntu made.Their install live cd is quite possibly the most unpleasant laggy experience i've ever had installing a distro.
Uelsk had an installer on one of the latest live cds and it had problems with it,but unlike ubuntu it wasnt laggy at all.The fastest,lightest live cd installation i've ever experienced! But it had a problem and some things had to be done to fix them.Still very promising,but for installation, VL has a great way to archive packages on a small iso,i think the install cd should be default.Its a better option if one wants quality and stability.
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easuter
Global Moderator
Vectorian
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Posts: 2160



« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2007, 01:35:53 am »

Quote
Check out other distributions and see how many of their installation disks are live CDs as well.

By making the install CD a LiveCD, one would probably have to sacrifice quite a few packages and extras to make space for the overhead a LiveCD creates.... Roll Eyes
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