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Poll
Question: What would be the killer punch for VL 6 ?
Graphical Installer & VASM - 19 (16.5%)
Super fancy desktop (with Beryl, 3D driver, ...) - 15 (13%)
Great slapt-get based repository - 45 (39.1%)
Fast multimedia system (real-time kernel, jackd, ...) - 23 (20%)
Support thin client SOHO system (linutop, ...) - 7 (6.1%)
Other .... - 6 (5.2%)
Total Voters: 66

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Author Topic: The "Punch" for VL-6  (Read 27470 times)
nubcnubdo
Vectorian
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Posts: 675


« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2007, 02:51:13 am »

Quote
Of course, the live CD should have an install option.

I suggested that the live CD have an install option, not that the install CD should be a live CD.
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nightflier
Administrator
Vectorian
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Posts: 4039



« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2007, 04:44:18 am »

I would like to see the Live disk remain just that, and not installable.

I use the live version for maintenance and repair. It could be optimized as a power tool and demo version. Cram it with command line tools. Trim the GUI down to a lean desktop with only a few essential programs. Seeing Open Office load from the CD is not the best way to introduce people to Linux.   Roll Eyes

Live may be the wave of the future, but I think it still has ways to go before it is fully mature. Perhaps the future will bring us a unified disc where you can select "Demo", "Maintenance" (cli power), "GUI Installler" and "Text installer". Those installers should be the equivalent of today's processes, not the "all or nothing" that you see in many of the above mentioned offerings.
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lagagnon
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Posts: 1922



WWW
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2007, 06:46:54 am »

...but we shouldnt make the mistake that ubuntu made.Their install live cd is quite possibly the most unpleasant laggy experience i've ever had installing a distro.

Exactly. Furthermore, in order to cram the LiveCD stuff and the graphical installer onto their CD they have only been able to include a VERY limited amount of software. VL includes at least twice the number of packages on our system as Ubuntu does. Personally I disagree with the concept of an installable LiveCD, it is trying to be everything to everyone and fails at that.
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"As people become more intelligent they care less for preachers and more for teachers". Robert G. Ingersoll
stoichyu
Packager
Vectorite
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Posts: 369



« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2007, 08:04:30 am »

Live may be the wave of the future, but I think it still has ways to go before it is fully mature. Perhaps the future will bring us a unified disc where you can select "Demo", "Maintenance" (cli power), "GUI Installler" and "Text installer". Those installers should be the equivalent of today's processes, not the "all or nothing" that you see in many of the above mentioned offerings.

Hm... I think that is possible with the linux-live scripts.

The new live scripts already use lzma compression which is the same as our packages so we can cram just as much stuff as we want. Also, the install cd is pretty much the same with the way the live cd works, you archive parts of the file system and put it on the cd. The main difference is that the livecd mounts the archives while installing extracts the archives themselves. The only difference would be the configuration which can be separate for both the livecd and the installed version. I'm not sure if slax is installable, but if it is, then it would certainly be doable in VL.
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VL 5.8 PentiumD 2.8Ghz Registered Linux User #432836
nubcnubdo
Vectorian
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Posts: 675


« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2007, 08:09:31 am »

I wasn't aware of the overhead involved in adding the install option. On the other hand, Puppy manages to include its Puppy Universal Installer along with a nice selection of tools, all in an 89MB iso. If a user is savvy enough to run a live CD, perhaps he has the technical ability to install VL the old way, with text installer. Naturally, the install option is left up to techs/devs who know more than me. May I say, a good opportunity is missed if the liveCD doesn't have the install option.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 03:15:24 pm by nubcnubdo » Logged
nightflier
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Vectorian
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« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2007, 08:30:50 am »

I'm not sure if slax is installable

It is possible, but not recommended.
http://www.slax.org/doc_install_slax.php
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Joe1962
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Posts: 2499



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« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2007, 08:35:33 am »

By making the install CD a LiveCD, one would probably have to sacrifice quite a few packages and extras to make space for the overhead a LiveCD creates.... Roll Eyes
Exactly why I prefer to each his own. Can't beat a proper install CD.
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Running: VL 7 Std 64 + self-cooked XFCE-4.10
uelsk8s
Administrator
Vectorian
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Posts: 2504



« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2007, 08:38:26 am »

Live may be the wave of the future, but I think it still has ways to go before it is fully mature. Perhaps the future will bring us a unified disc where you can select "Demo", "Maintenance" (cli power), "GUI Installler" and "Text installer". Those installers should be the equivalent of today's processes, not the "all or nothing" that you see in many of the above mentioned offerings.

Hm... I think that is possible with the linux-live scripts.

The new live scripts already use lzma compression which is the same as our packages so we can cram just as much stuff as we want. Also, the install cd is pretty much the same with the way the live cd works, you archive parts of the file system and put it on the cd. The main difference is that the livecd mounts the archives while installing extracts the archives themselves. The only difference would be the configuration which can be separate for both the livecd and the installed version. I'm not sure if slax is installable, but if it is, then it would certainly be doable in VL.

The VL lve cd's have always been installable, but there has been some problems with the installers.
We are working on SOHO-LIVE now and having big problems trying to fit it onto a 700mb cd, and that is with the new live scripts with lzma. The new live filesystem is a combination of squash+lzma so you dont get the same compression ratio.
SOHO would take more than 900mb as a livecd and thats without any kde language packs.

Uelsk8s
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newt
Vectorian
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Posts: 1132



« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2007, 08:49:14 am »

You can't be the proper install cd.

About a year ago I wanted to give ubuntu (new version at the time) a shot so I snagged the ISO.  To my surprise it was live - and took a long time to get to the desktop and was (as previously stated) kludgy at best.  No worries, I didn't care about the "live" feel since I was going to install it to the hard drive anyways.  I began the installer and followed along.  A couple minutes into install the system just hung - no hard drive activity, no install progression, but the mouse moved.  Thinking it was a glitch, I gave it another shot and ended up with the exact same results.  So then I snagged the ISO again thinking it was a corrupt image - that also didn't solve the problem - same results.  Since I was getting "shut down" at every turn trying to play with the new ubuntu I decided to grab kubuntu.  It installed fine, but I remember having troubles trying to compile packages from source.  This had never been an issue on slackware so I scrapped the idea of *buntu on my system.

That's why I like the proper install cd Grin
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tomh38
Vectorian
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Posts: 913



« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2007, 10:17:45 am »

Just to chime in on the Live CD issue ... I've been using VL5.8-std-LIVE-beryl-B4 since it came out in March.  I've had very few problems, most of which have been related to Beryl, and even so not too many of those.  I use the 5.8 Live RC1 to demo VL all the time, no problems yet, and it's also great as a system recovery tool for somebody's Windows machine which has been borked by viruses or other malware.  Just a few days ago I used it to recover all the important data on my brother's Windows XP machine after his 11-year-old stepson had disabled all the security software to make his games run faster (thus infesting the machine with viruses etc.).

As far as I'm concerned, the Live CDs don't ever have to go "Gold."  Personally, I've had a great experience with them.  For the small number of developers that VL has, it's probably more important to focus on the non-live releases of the OS, which in my experience is the best desktop Linux available, both for older and newer computers.
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
GrannyGeek
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2007, 10:21:00 am »

If a user is savvy enough to run a live CD, perhaps he has the technical ability to install VL the old way, with text installer.

I thought the idea behind a distro's LiveCD was that the user *didn't* have to be tech savvy. Just put the CD in the drive and boot. Of course, it doesn't always work that way, as the default for running the CD may disagree with a particular system.

I don't think LiveCDs give that great of an impression of a distro. It's a lot slower to run a system off a CD than off a hard drive and people may get the wrong idea even if you caution them about the slowness. Also, there's not enough guidance for a newbie. I know of Windows users who ran LiveCDs and couldn't figure out where the file manager was, how to start programs, how to see what was on their Windows partition.

Anyone who can install an operating system--ANY operating system--is already way more tech savvy than the average computer user. I think we Linux users often forget that.
--GrannyGeek
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:25:51 am by GrannyGeek » Logged

Registered Linux User #397786

Happily running VL 7 Gold on  a Sempron LE-1300 desktop (2.3 GHz), 4 G RAM,  GeForce 6150 SE onboard graphics and on an HP Pavilion dv7 i7, 6 gigs, Intel 2nd Generation Integrated Graphics Controller
GrannyGeek
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2007, 10:24:13 am »

Since I was getting "shut down" at every turn trying to play with the new ubuntu I decided to grab kubuntu.  It installed fine, but I remember having troubles trying to compile packages from source.  This had never been an issue on slackware so I scrapped the idea of *buntu on my system.

Lots of distros do not include the developer files needed when you're compiling something. They can be installed pretty easily if you know what you need, but VectorLinux is much better out of the box if you're going to compile anything.
--GrannyGeek
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Registered Linux User #397786

Happily running VL 7 Gold on  a Sempron LE-1300 desktop (2.3 GHz), 4 G RAM,  GeForce 6150 SE onboard graphics and on an HP Pavilion dv7 i7, 6 gigs, Intel 2nd Generation Integrated Graphics Controller
easuter
Global Moderator
Vectorian
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Posts: 2160



« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2007, 11:40:36 am »

Quote
Lots of distros do not include the developer files needed when you're compiling something. They can be installed pretty easily if you know what you need, but VectorLinux is much better out of the box if you're going to compile anything.

Hehe, yeah...the so-called "devel" packages... Lips sealed

Extremely annoying that headers are removed from the main packages. Thats one of my gripes with Ubuntu: its bad enough to have to hunt for libraries let alone having to hunt for the headers because you need to compile something from source.

Back on topic though: it would be nice to see all GTK apps and Xfce in VL 6 compiled with the "--included-gettext" option as Caitlyn Martin had pointed out to ensure internationalization support.
That would at least allow the possibility of making language packs for VL 6 that can be put in the repo.
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Toe
Member
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Posts: 76


« Reply #58 on: May 25, 2007, 12:17:01 pm »

If it's possible, I say keep the LiveCD separate, but still keep it installable.  I don't think it's such a terrible thing to not include every last app on the LiveCD.  But someone who downloads & runs the LiveCD to try VL out shouldn't have to download & burn a whole extra ISO just to get it installed. 

Ideally, I see it working like this:  A user downloads a VL LiveCD, likes it (of course!), and decides to install it.  Since the user doesn't have a 'complete' SOHO or Standard install CD, there should be a simple way to download & install the packages left off of the LiveCD, thus upgrading them to a 'full' install of VL.  This could be done either at install time or afterward.
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blurymind
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 1082



« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2007, 12:34:54 am »

the punch for vl6:

The upgrades of xorg and other packages (waiting for slack11.1)

VL's killer apps that sepparate it from other distros+ vlpackager as a new addition.

Change of the site's look. The curent theme is terrible and its hard to find a link to the forum,plus you can learn from other websites- add sections that are live,that change oftenly. My best bet is to integrate somehow with the forum as much as possible.Have links to latest threads of this and that. If gra[hic files are needed,i will try to provide.  Roll Eyes  There are wonderfull site templates and themes that are open source.
http://www.openwebdesign.org/most_popular.phtml
http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/
http://www.oswd.org/
you can take one and modify it abit to fit Vec.

if not Use this Forum's theme if thats not troublesome.Mimic it! I know a few web designers who will help gladly for free.
You can also add a simple gallery for users,where they can upload screenshots of their desktop. This will definatelly trigger some additional fame to vec's comunity. Mepis had sucha gallery and it was sepparated from its main site- it deffinetelly drew new users.Ubuntu did something like this and integrated it with the forum. Look around different distro websites and take ideas from them:Sabayon,Zenwalk,pclinuxOs,WOLVIX,there are so many other well made websites..

The distro's look and feel needs a little more polishing. VL-Soho was awesome...but VL-std and probably soho too dont have an icon for the tlz mimetype,which is a shame.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2007, 12:46:16 am by blurymind » Logged

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