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Author Topic: Hook up with Zenwalk  (Read 21756 times)
blurymind
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Vectorian
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2007, 01:14:24 am »


Or, VL and ZW could co-sponsor an extra complementary section in each other's forum. With good linking, it would be like having common forums. Zenwalk uses the same SMF forum software, doesnt it? Hmm


i like this idea. Lets talk with zen team and see what they think.

Shuttleworth has powerful ideas,worth noticing.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 01:21:13 am by blurymind » Logged

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metvas
Vectorite
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Posts: 311


« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2007, 09:35:07 am »

Hi:
I think we should step back from this until a few of the major projects we are in the middle of are completed. I am not against any of this, but we ALL need to carefully consider the end results of any such collaboration. Please continue to brain storm and post idea structures for consideration and community input.
For example. How do you envision the IT structure of this model?
What would we name it? Who will host the site? Wiki or static pages? These ideas will give us a vision of the end result to consider, before we even talk to ZW.
Regards
Darrell
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JohnB316
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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2007, 11:47:00 am »

Besides the issues mentioned in Darrell's post, there are issues of package management, packaging standards, etc., etc., that would have to be dealt with before we even contemplate talking with ZW or any other Slack derivative for merger, etc. There may also be potential legal issues, so it's not a good idea to rush into anything until we can think through things carefully.

Just my $0.02,
John
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VL 6.0 SOHO latest alpha on one box, VL 5.9 Lite on the other.
rbistolfi
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Posts: 2282


« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2007, 12:25:07 pm »

I think the idea of a common slack-based repo could be a good thing, and a more proof merge with some distros too. But this is not something to do in a hurry, I agree with John and Darrell on this one. A slow start could be test other distros packages on vl. We cant test VL's packages in distros with no lzma support, but its a start.
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newt
Vectorian
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Posts: 1132



« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2007, 01:23:35 pm »

Hi:
I think we should step back from this until a few of the major projects we are in the middle of are completed. I am not against any of this, but we ALL need to carefully consider the end results of any such collaboration. Please continue to brain storm and post idea structures for consideration and community input.
For example. How do you envision the IT structure of this model?
What would we name it? Who will host the site? Wiki or static pages? These ideas will give us a vision of the end result to consider, before we even talk to ZW.
Regards
Darrell
Besides the issues mentioned in Darrell's post, there are issues of package management, packaging standards, etc., etc., that would have to be dealt with before we even contemplate talking with ZW or any other Slack derivative for merger, etc. There may also be potential legal issues, so it's not a good idea to rush into anything until we can think through things carefully.

Just my $0.02,
John
I think the idea of a common slack-based repo could be a good thing, and a more proof merge with some distros too. But this is not something to do in a hurry, I agree with John and Darrell on this one. A slow start could be test other distros packages on vl. We cant test VL's packages in distros with no lzma support, but its a start.

I felt the same way about paid tech support but that one ran away - FASTTTT Grin .  What harm could come??? Wink
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metvas
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Posts: 311


« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2007, 01:30:13 pm »

It ran away FAST due to several folks fully concentrating their efforts on it. That idea is almost fully developed again due to FOCUS.
The ZW idea needs FOCUS. Not that it is faulty or unrealistic just needs FOCUS. We have projects on the go that need to be fully completed before we can focus elsewhere.
regards
Darrell
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rbistolfi
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2007, 02:23:07 pm »

No harm at all, I guess. In my case, was just a practical thing, I have the opinion that we need to take this as a long term project, because there are many issues to solve. For example, ZW ships xorg 7.2, I dont know what vers of glibc, qt, wx* and other fundamentals libs are they using, not all the others are following slack step by step, and I dont know how this can affect the building-package process.
I dont know why the paid support thing ran fast, and I have no manner to know. I guess people who takes the decisions were interested. IMO, a common repo could be a big impact, bigger than any other project. As I said when I proposed it, I think the success of several debian based distros is they can use the hughe kanonikal/*buntu repos. Slack based distros are dividing efforts, and debian based are joining them. In addition, we dont need to agree in everything, just in some standards to build packages (i guess, may be i am wrong). So this is a good point to start a merge. But cant be done in a blink, I am not saying "dont do it", I am saying lets work some before talk with others, we really dont know even if it is possible at all. We were just "thinking at loud", a lot more if needed to start a project of this kind.
About the big projects running now and the manpower needed to do them (may be including this one), I think could be good to have a wiki, with a page for each project, and one page for each work area of the distro, where you can read the goals of the project, the name of the project leader, the name of colaborators, the resources needed, the stage of the project, what kind of help is needed, etc. May be in that way we could get more help in a more efficient way, mostly in no-critic areas, and minor tasks now taken by main devs. The ways we can join to the devs efforts are not documented at all, and that is a mistake. I think there is many ways to help than the financial way, and we have our focus on just that way. In addition, people with an interest in common could start a new project in an organized way (for example, the projects of our gambas-devs, a new web-site for vl6, new contents of the site, new flavors on graphical/desktop design, new apps or systems to implement, migration and/or upgrades of fundamentals libs, and other nice ideas that you can see in the forum).
The only thing agains this kind of wiki for projects is the wiki itself is a project, so we need a wiki for the wiki project, and a wiki for the wiki...ad infinitum  Grin
Just my $ARG 0.02 (1 US$ = 3.08 ARG$)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2007, 02:44:18 pm by rbistolfi » Logged

"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."
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--
Jumalauta!!
GrannyGeek
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Vectorian
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2007, 05:27:05 pm »

I'm sitting here scratching my head. What exactly is the point of the discussion? To have a common repo? I certainly don't want to merge with Zenwalk or any other Slackware-based distro. I use VectorLinux because I like it. I like it better than any other distro I've tried. I stopped trying other distros a couple of years ago, when I found that VL met all my needs. There was no point in trying other distros. I want to get things done, not play with distros.

For the past couple of years, my trials of other distros have been limited to LiveCDs, and even that is uncommon for me.

Don't Linuxpackages.net and slacky.it already provide something of a common repo? Yes, things don't always work and you may be on your own as far as finding dependencies, but you can still do pretty well between those two, Slackware's repo, and VL's repo.
--GrannyGeek
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rbistolfi
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Vectorian
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Posts: 2282


« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2007, 06:03:22 pm »

I think the point is find a way to join efforts. VL is already great, we all know that. That doesnt mean it cant be better, and doesnt mean there are not other good distros around.
Why to join forces with other distros? Well, if there are some distros with equal philosophy, or with same goals, or something big in common, there is no sense in compite between them. I am not saying ZW and VL are those distros, honestly I dont know. May be there is no such thing as a VL's "brother", but if there is, I would like to see them together. You are rigth about Slacky and Linuxpackages, I mentioned it at my first post on this thread. But they dont solve dependencies. We can live with that. We solve them, we compile from source, and if we cant, the greats guys easuter, joe, john, etc, etc will build a nice vl package for us. But most of people dont know how to do this. They are not interested in computers as we do, and they dont want to spend time looking for a solution. Why we want that people to use vl? because with more users, more chances to survive in a hard world. More are joining vl already, as we can see on the forum, and -eventually- the repo will be more big and hard to maintain. If we check the ZW repo (I did) We will find one pretty like ours, in quantity and quality. They have a packagers number like we have, more or less -we can guess-. So why not divide the job?
Again, this are just ideas, we dont need to do a big deal of this. If they work, great. If they dont, lets think about something else. The only thing we cant do is to not think at all.
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"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."
Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise.

--
Jumalauta!!
never_stop_learning
Vectorite
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Posts: 263


WWW
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2007, 10:28:17 pm »

I evaluated a LOT of different distros for our Computers for Kids program. Things that REALLY impressed me about Vector:

Speed - Vector is FAST on a wide variety of machines.

Flexibility - I have been able to install Vector on every machine that has been donated to our Computers for Kids program. You would be surprised how many distros (including Zenwalk) hang on different machines. I don't have the time to trouble shoot every install.

Ease of Install - Vector's installer is easy to understand and installs faster than other distros.

Internet - Just works. This includes wireless on the laptops (we stick with cards that work). I never could get wireless to work on Zenwalk. The only issue we've had with Vector is with WPA and I'm sure that we'll be able to figure things out.

Package Management - It doesn't get any easier than GSLAPT.

Package Availability - I am a non-technical user and probably don't tax the repositories but no one else involved in our project has complained about a lack of packages either. The kids who want to learn to design games have downloaded Blender  - and the tutorial - and are learning as we speak.

Training - We are training kids, siblings, parents, etc. on Vector. The feedback has been extremely positive.

Would it not be preferable to remain focused on what makes Vector the great distro it is? I understand that there is strength in numbers and that cooperative ventures can be beneficial but I would hate to see Vector's strengths compromised as a result.

Just my $.02.....

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Desktop: Dell Dimension 5150 (P4 3ghz, 2gb ram, 80gb hd) VL 6.0 Std
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The Headacher
Louder than you
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Vectorian
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WWW
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2007, 12:25:03 am »

Quote from: rbistolfi
You are rigth about Slacky and Linuxpackages, I mentioned it at my first post on this thread. But they dont solve dependencies.
AAMOF, Slacky packages DO have dependency info in them. To use their packages, add http://www.slacky.eu/repository/slackware-11.0 to the gslapt/slapt-get sources.

After giving it some thought, I have to agree with GrannyGeek and never_stop_learning (and others who said similar things) here. VL is fine the way it is.

Suggestions I've seen so far
- make a combined effort (in what??)
- a common repo (just use slack packages, they should work on any slack derivative)
- Come up with a common base for things like lib versions, repo format (spread the slapt-get + tlz love?), compile flags, etc.

The hurdles for what's been suggested are many, the advantages unclear (more packages is about the only one I heard). I think it might even slow down development when we argue amongst ourselves trying to find standards.

What we found out so far, is that .tlz rocks. the software used for .tlz packages was taken from tukaani. There was no real agreement as far as I can see, or difficult official merge/collaboration. Just take it. That's what open source is for.
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exeterdad
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Vectorian
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Posts: 2046



« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2007, 08:57:30 am »

Yeah, what he said!
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metvas
Vectorite
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Posts: 311


« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2007, 09:32:15 am »

Hello All:
OK, I am not being rude or micromanaging here. I, at least do not think I am. We are NOT doing this at this time anyway. Once a team can be pulled together that will put this project on paper and demonstrate an ONLY a substantial positive outcome will anything even be CONSIDERED. That is it. Case closed. Those intested in forming this fact finding team are welcome to step up to the plate. Thanks for any ideas to date.
Regards
Darrell
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rbistolfi
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Vectorian
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« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2007, 01:28:02 pm »

The arguments exposed by The Headeacher are strong enough for me and they are well taken. That said, I still think we are dividing efforts and some kind of collaboration could make a difference. The common repo idea came up to me as a good start of a common work. Many times we read on the forum that VL is short of manpower, this ideas are an attemp to solve that problem.

Quote
What we found out so far, is that .tlz rocks. the software used for .tlz packages was taken from tukaani. There was no real agreement as far as I can see, or difficult official merge/collaboration. Just take it. That's what open source is for.

True, that is already the collaboration we are talkin about.

Quote
Would it not be preferable to remain focused on what makes Vector the great distro it is? I understand that there is strength in numbers and that cooperative ventures can be beneficial but I would hate to see Vector's strengths compromised as a result.

Of course! This ideas are for reduce the load of work not to increase it. So, this is about get focus on the vl strengths!

Quote
The hurdles for what's been suggested are many, the advantages unclear (more packages is about the only one I heard).

More packages with less work, that is not a minor thing, if I am not wrong, will be the key in the future. But may be I am wrong, I have no problems to admit that. Smiley One of my theorems is "probably I am wrong, I must be missunderstanding the other's arguments".

Quote
I think it might even slow down development when we argue amongst ourselves trying to find standards.

Dont do this then, the only reason of this is to improve development. We need to be sure this or whatever is good for the development. Honestly, I dont know how a discussion about the standars could be, I was very careful about this.

Guys, my english is not very good and maybe I am not understanding well, but some people looks upset. I think we need to be more open to new ideas, if we make a war from whatever, people will stop to trying to help. I have no problems to admit if I am wrong, as I said, if the arguments show that. There is no need of upset. We all are here because we think VL is the best distro around.
cheers, Rodrigo

PS: honestly, what do you think about the wiki thing? I mean this:

Quote
About the big projects running now and the manpower needed to do them (may be including this one), I think could be good to have a wiki, with a page for each project, and one page for each work area of the distro, where you can read the goals of the project, the name of the project leader, the name of colaborators, the resources needed, the stage of the project, what kind of help is needed, etc. May be in that way we could get more help in a more efficient way, mostly in no-critic areas, and minor tasks now taken by main devs. The ways we can join to the devs efforts are not documented at all, and that is a mistake. I think there is many ways to help than the financial way, and we have our focus on just that way. In addition, people with an interest in common could start a new project in an organized way (for example, the projects of our gambas-devs, a new web-site for vl6, new contents of the site, new flavors on graphical/desktop design, new apps or systems to implement, migration and/or upgrades of fundamentals libs, and other nice ideas that you can see in the forum).
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 01:30:17 pm by rbistolfi » Logged

"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."
Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise.

--
Jumalauta!!
metvas
Vectorite
***
Posts: 311


« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2007, 03:05:16 pm »

The reason for my last post was I did not see anything even close to this:
OK...everyone step back and take a deep breath...1..2..10.
There. Now, here is how I approach things. Maybe lets look at it change it add to it as you deem fit.
1. Why Are We Doing This?
2. Is it worth the efforts?( Energy in..produced results out)
3. What other distro or disto's would be the best match(s)?
4. Are we recreating the wheel? (Does something similar exist)
5. Is something similar in development? ( Can we review it)
5. What results have been reported in the past of this exercise?
6. What in defined terms will be the end benefit(s), and to whom?

This would be what I would look at myself, I toss around an idea for a long time then go through it step by step in my head. Over and over until I know it in my sleep. Then I change it for an idea I came up with while thinking it over, etc, etc...then I have a plan I know off by heart and share it with others to get their feedback. Dependant on that info I either change the plan modify it only a little...then I am confident of what I am trying to accomplish can be accomplished. It's success always an unknown!!..Ergo, "The best laid plans of mice and men.
Robert Burns (1759-1796)..
Regards
Darrell
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