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[Shingoshi]

I guess one of the first "obstacles" would be whether or not they are prepared to adopt LZMA compression for their packages, because I don't think thats something VL will ever drop...

This is something that is definitely important to me. I started using .tlz long before I started using Vector. It was because of my building my own packages, that I came across tukbuild, created by Lasse Colin, the author of pkgtools-tukaani. Now that he has moved on to create "xz" the replacement for lzma, I will be using whatever he does now with pkgtools. Given the tremendous size of my distribution, I can't use anything that doesn't provide the highest compression possible. This is also why all of my packages will be using upx-ucl to compress binaries.

In this regard, I have also considered using another program called "dact", which selects the best compression algorithm for each block. I have contacted the author for consideration of making dact a dynamically compressed self-extracting archives. It would be the best of two worlds. Upx allows binaries to self-extract, but is limited to a specific algorithm. Dact is a dynamic compressor, but currently doesn't self-extract. Having both would mean using very small binaries with compression optimized according to the size of the blocks in each file, and then being able to use those without any prior decompression. More binaries could then fit in smaller spaces. So I too am not willing to abandon the tlz package format, or whatever replaces it.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

Of course, this is just a ligth talk. About the packaging box, I read a thread about making a packaging structure without the need of a full install (I think with chroot or something like that). May be this can be done: a bash script will setup a packaging enviroment folowing some standards. Just a command needs to be executed to setup the propers vars. Of course, the setup needs to be compatible with all the distros involved. The script will ensure all the pack boxes has the same setup.

This is where I think it would be highly beneficial to everyone to have a core set of tools (a unified toolchain and libraries) from which all Slackware-based distributions are built upon. That core set should like concentrate on the /a /d and /l directories in the Slackware repositories. I think the rest of the system should be added on with the utility of meta-packages, managing the installation of all required dependencies. The Layman project in Gentoo is something that I personally have high regard for. The idea of package sets all being built upon a common foundation would remove all of the confusion that now exists here, attempting to use packages from outside the core system you installed.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

[Shingoshi]

From my reading, I gather that there definitely is no consensus between ZW Forum members for Zenwalk to be newbie friendly. 

This is something that could never be tolerated with a distribution dedicated to professionals. They simply wouldn't allow the kind of disrespect that so often flies around in forums like these. There would have to be a decorum that promotes users to communicate freely without fear of being insulted, because someone else has determined that their question or idea is "stupid and idiotic". The stupidity would the respondent to requests for help, and not giving it in a clear manner that doesn't condemn someone for having asked.

[Shingoshi]

Shuttleworth has a plan to coordinate collaboration between distros with a common forum, a forum specifically dedicated to the collaboration.

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8470376604.html

We could have a Slackware-derivative forum for:
VectorLinux
Zenwalk
Wolvix
Ultima
Absolute
Frugalware
GoblinX

But I bet such a forum would be the birthplace of yet another Slackware distro. LOL

Maybe there could be a common forum between just Zenwalk and VL.

Or, VL and ZW could co-sponsor an extra complementary section in each other's forum. With good linking, it would be like having common forums. Zenwalk uses the same SMF forum software, doesnt it? Hmm

Now that I've read this, let me point a few things out.

It really addresses the very things I've been envisioning. This really gets at what I suggested about having all packages built with debugging tools not stripped. We can't very well move forward as a community, when major members of it are crippling the very things we need to advance. One of the things that I have sought to do is create a public (as in Linux-wide) community build environment, in which all software is built and tested against the others present, to verify conformity and integrity throughout the entire system. All too often, packages have conflicts and dependencies which prevent them or others from working as the user expected them to. Sometimes, not at all. Most developers don't have the resources to test their work in every imaginable scenario. Having a community accessible build system would serve to eliminate most of these problems. And having all packages compiled in a single environment guarantees that collaboration is less of an issue. The very thing that Mark Shuttleworth suggests, would no longer be just a dream, but a reality.

This is where Slackware can succeed where others cannot. Since Slackware has historically used the original sources with little (or no) modification (except as really required), developers could use a system like this built upon a common Slackware toolchain and libraries to verify their work. And having a tool like src2pkg (http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/amigolinux/download/src2pkg/src2pkg-1.9.7-noarch-17.tgz) would lessen the headache each of them currently experience.

Using src2pkg throughout Linux proper would help establish and maintain standards in how Makefiles are written and maintained. And that's one of the biggest problems facing developers. Every one now is doing whatever they want without concern for how it affects the work of others. The situation has devolved into a condition of selfishness. And that alone undermines the great task ahead of Linux in competing with the corporate interests which would rather we not be here.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

[tomh38]

Edited for content.  See below.

[Shingoshi]

The pettiness with which so many Linux users approach issues suggested for real change, makes me wonder where the intelligence comes from to actually use Linux. But I really think the last post directly addresses the issues many if not most Linux users are actually concerned with more than anything else. Linux, and the distributions in particular that are chosen become an expression of one's identity. It's not an issue of what works, but rather very often, "what makes me feel the most special. It's sad just how many times I hear the same refrain. The bottom line is a fear of change. The status quo becomes one's identity. So that no matter how much better something new may be than what one is accustomed to, it's rejected in favor of familiarity. Sad indeed, but ultimately the reality for most.

And then there's this illusion of independence. The desire to see one's self as special for the amount of work the individual must do to maintain the distribution they run. So any time new approaches are suggested or revealed to limit the amount of required work, they are rejected again because it would change their identity on independence. It's as though having to dig with one's fingers is more desirable than a robotic back hoe.

But I'm still looking for some sign of higher intelligence displayed in the management of a distribution. I think the essential reality for me is that I need professional services. To expect that from anyone not using or building a distribution as a professional, is simply illogical. So I have to find a professional distribution, even if it is small and specialized. I may have found that with HostGIS (http://www.hostgis.com/linux/wiki/index.php?title=Welcome). It's another Slackware-based system. But it's dedicated to professionals who use the product at work. So it has an entirely different mindset than what other's would be accustomed to. It's the kind of mindset that I prefer.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

[rbistolfi]

So any time new approaches are suggested or revealed to limit the amount of required work, they are rejected again because it would change their identity on independence.

Well, you are assuming a lot there. Maybe the suggestion were not so good, or hard to implement.

But I'm still looking for some sign of higher intelligence displayed in the management of a distribution.

You will need a higher intelligence to recognize it also. It is a 3000 years old paradox.

[tomh38]

Edited for content.  See below.

[metvas]

Hello Shingoshi:
My name is Darrell Co-Founder of VL with Robert I have been following this thread for some time and am a bit confused as to what exactly you are looking for? Is it a Linux O/S that you can use for your purposes or one that you can contribute to? Or perhaps both?
I simply cannot understand what you are looking for? Perhaps if you explained that we could better understand you , perhaps?
As it currently stands in my opinion, you are looking for a Linux or otherwise O/S fully developed to suit your needs? For free? Is that correct?
I find that difficult to comprehend and invite you to better explain your needs so we do not see you as a complete waste of our bandwidth, which BTW is were you currently stand in my opinion.
So please feel free to further enlighten us as to what it is you need and expect. Also can you contribute in development or perhaps financial assistance to VL?
I look forward to your answer(s).
Regards
Darrell

[Shingoshi]

Regarding a private message I received, I hope this clears things up.

I'm looking for the means to build an advanced system upon an already strong foundation which doesn't yet provide the services that I desire to distribute to users. Essentially, I'm looking to create a Public Technology Library for groups that simply don't have the resources and experience to deploy the systems they need on their own. So I want to deliver fully preconfigured systems that are ready to use by anyone. Once they have their system installed, they can always alter it to meet their needs as they become more experienced.

But servers like MySQL, Postgresql and others like them must be ready to use, without figuring out how to get them started, just so that the user can start to work.

I hope that explains better my intent.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

[metvas]

Hello Shingoshi;
I do not mean to discourage you nor steer you to re-creating the wheel. However we have been at this for over a decade and what you are contemplating does not exit anywhere not at M$, not at Apple not at Sun and not at VL or  any other open source project I am aware of. Should I be incorrect with that statement please correct me.
To even suggest that http://www.hostgis.com/linux/wiki/index.php?title=Welcome is a user friendly project lends insult to my intelligence and exposes your lack of technical intelligence, to which I take extreme exception and extend that exception to the entire hard working VL community.
 I would suggest you read the IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) site. They have made huge strides with open source projects. Perhaps suggest your intentions there to see what they might say about it all.
To demean VL as we lack your interpretation of intelligence or dedication to GNU philosophy  is shamefully exposing your lack of research to date !
If you have something constructive to contribute to VL. Please keep involved. If however you wish to insult our excellent work and dedication to those who cannot afford bleeding edge technology. Please move on we are busy helping those you only talk about helping but are doing nothing concrete about it. No one wants to hear about what you have not done. When you have done it please let us know. I personally would be very excited to hear about it all.
There is a word in the Oxford dictionary I will spell it out for you Quixotic. I suggest you look it up.
I wish you the very best in your future endevours, keep us posted as to your progress. Our forum is legendary in helping whoever and whenever possible for free.
Regards
Darrell

[Shingoshi]

I used HostGIS as an example of a preconfigured system, with the server components already in place and running. It's like having LAMPP or any of the others like it, preconfigured. I was very pleased to install it and find Webmin already had the databases open and ready to use. I am aware that HostGIS isn't a full system. And even the author is looking for a better desktop. But the point I'm most concerned with is, can a user go to work immediately, or have to work to get to work. MySQL was a nightmare to configure. My point is for users who have little if any experience configuring systems, won't be stopped from using the tools they need most of all. I'm looking to provide everything in a point-and-click nature. This system isn't directed at people who have no other desire than to learn Linux (on a command line).

So I'm sorry you're offended. Most of you really don't want anything like that ever happening. To use GUIs is for many Linux users seen as incompetence. Which is why my suggestions concerning GUIs are often met with insults. That's fine if it's your hobby. But if it's work, you don't want to work more than you need to. I fondly remember the first time I saw the Sun Desktop back in 1989. I knew right away, "that's something I can "work" with. I saw a computer that said, "come on and sit down and tell me what you need to do. It wasn't something that I needed or wanted the computer to tell me what it wanted me to do.

And there are many working examples of systems that were rejected by the original group from which they started, and work wonderfully. If the users of VectorLinux were perfectly happy with Slackware, they wouldn't have left it in the first place.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

[GrannyGeek]

Shingoshi,

One of the beauties of Linux is that there are distributions for just about any need. One size doesn't fit all and in my opinion, it is better to find a distro designed from the outset for what you want than to try to add or remove features from a distro designed for something that doesn't fit your needs.

VectorLinux is targeted at home and small business desktop users. It is not designed to be a server distro, though with some work it can be modified for that use. So at the outset, I don't think VL is close to what you need. You might do better with something like Red Hat, Slackware, SuSE, or distros that will most likely be used for servers.

I don't think it is insulting to VL if you say we're not what you're looking for. I do wonder, though, if what you want is even possible. Will all your users have the same hardware? How else could you "deliver fully preconfigured systems that are ready to use by anyone"? Certainly you could develop a distro that could provide identical software configurations (I think most distros already do that if one accepts the defaults), but if the hardware isn't very similar, one size wouldn't fit all. I don't have much technical knowledge and could be entirely wrong, in which case I would be happy to be corrected.

When you say "it's dedicated to professionals who use the product at work. So it has an entirely different mindset than what other's would be accustomed to. It's the kind of mindset that I prefer," I think many of us aren't sure what you mean. Red Hat and SuSE are targeted to the enterprise user. VectorLinux is not. But that doesn't make VL and its developers "unprofessional." They are quite professional in providing a product that meets the needs of home and small business users very well. Many of us Vector users would be quite upset if VL's focus changed from the desktop user to whatever you mean by "professionals." There are other distros for that.

I wish you luck in your quest.
--GrannyGeek

[tomh38]

Shingoshi:

Being so critical of people who want to help you and would if they knew what you wanted makes me think you need to be more clear and less demanding.

Tom

EDIT:  I removed an image because another member considered it inapropriate.  My apologies to that member and to anyone else who was offended.

[caitlyn]

I always talk about how helpful and friendly the Vector Linux community is.  Tom, with all due respect, this is the second thread where I've seen you post something totally inappropriate in recent days.  It reflects poorly on you and on the Vector Linux community as a whole.