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Author Topic: Okay VL user, what do you do for work?  (Read 21032 times)
exeterdad
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« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2007, 07:55:58 am »

tomh38,

Have I ever mentioned that I like you? lol
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« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2007, 07:57:41 am »

Personally I'm a lifelong practicing Catholic, but I'm also a fervent believer that a teacher's personal religious beliefs have no place in a public-funded classroom.
This seems to be somewhat of a contradiction. I suspect the tenets of your Catholic faith would have you "practice" differently. Perhaps I am wrong though as I not a Catholic scholar.

WRT the Catholic Church and the Theory of Evolution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church

The encyclical Humani Generis, which states that there is no conflict between evolution and the Catholic faith, is still the prevailing doctrine I believe. The late John Paul II bolstered that opinion and Benedict seems not to have rescinded it.

(BTW, I'm not a Catholic; I follow religions though. There are some things I don't like Catholicism, but I have some good feelings toward that faith.)

Quote
Furthermore, here in Missouri there are a lot of fundamentalists, so if we let them push the thin edge of the wedge into the classroom on one thing, before you know it all science and sex education would be gone, and they would be burning books that they don't like.
This seems odd on a Linux forum where people seem to complain about FUD as it is just that. What science are you referring to? To say that the theory of evolution is fact is another contradiction. It is not fact and is no better supported by science than Intelligent Design. Both have holes in them. Which do you choose to believe (oops there's that faith subject again).

Intelligent design is not science at all; perhaps philosophy or theology of a kind. The theory of evolution is. 'Proof' does not exist in science as it does in mathematics, and, by definition, there are 'holes' in any scientific theory. Evolution is among the best tested of theories and is nearly as important to modern biology as cell theory.

The way I look at science, or knowledge in general really, is that we want to draw a circle, but we can only draw regular polygons. With each new discovery, we more closely approximate a circle as a new side is added. Triangle, square, pentagon, hexagon, and so forth...we will never have a circle but maybe damn close to a circle.

And of course one can observe evolution in a very mundane way...note that flu shots change every year.

If you are also suggesting that lifelong, monogamous sex is bad education then you don't know the facts about sex. Just because people don't like to acknowledge consequences resultant from promiscuity doesn't mean that removing restraint is the best choice. People make choices and leaving out part of the information is not good education. Ignoring part of the information would include them in the same "backward thinking" that you seem to have put those fundamentalists.

Well if it's abstinence-only education you have in mind, it has been a statistical failure.

Quote
Also, there would be school prayer, and it would be Protestant prayer, which would not be to the liking of us Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, and so on.
Perhaps the "fundamentalists" you speak of would want prayer to fit their belief system but considering that the majority of the public population in these United States calls themselves Christian (not Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic, and so on) I think it's interesting that you would be opposed to what the public wants who fund the school you work at. But again because these United States are a Republic and not a Democracy you get the voice of a minority (Atheists) removing any opportunity for anyone's prayer to be school sponsored.

I'm curious about whether prayer has to be organized. I'm not really sure about the metaphysics behind it, but isn't it possible to pray mentally and silently, at least for Christians? Furthermore, why must prayer be held in school, as opposed to church or at home or whatever? I don't ask rhetorical questions (pointless), so I really don't know the answer.

Anyway, I for one don't think that students should be forced to pray. I think if prayer were imposed on us when we were in high school, one of my non-practicing Jewish friends and I (I'm a freethinker) would probably goof off.

Quote
And so the school board thinks it's best to keep the religion out completely.  I'm in full agreement with them.

Perhaps you could ask them why, in the interests of education. The likely answer would not be something most would accept in any other aspect of their life. They (the school board) don't want religion (Protestant in particular) because someone would alert the ACLU or other such group and the school board would be sued and probably lose a great deal of money. But consider something a bit less obtrusive to life such as computers. The minority group Microsoft has the power to control the market. They have done so to the disdain of some. Many on this forum and other's like it don't particularly appreciate it and would like others more influentual then they are to stand up to what they feel the majority of computer users really want (interpreted as NOT Microsoft). Thus MS "keeps" other OSes from getting significant market share; a misinterpretation of Thomas Jefferson keeps prayer out of schools.

Microsoft are a powerful multinational corporation and the majority...the comparison doesn't hold up. I can't speak for everyone, but I think that many who don't toe the party line here, atheist, agnostic, independent believer (like me), or otherwise, are sometimes treated with suspicion and distrust. Persecution would be too strong a word, but, yes, fundamentalists do have way too much power in policy-making and culture here. As such, the friend I mentioned earlier and I will probably not be here too much longer. I think that many of the USA's intellectual youth, particularly we men, for whatever reason, are really disillusioned with the way things go now.

I have never agreed with reasoning that says one should do something because everyone else does it. In this case, it's an adult form of peer pressure, and I rarely ever bow to peer pressure. To put it bluntly, peer pressure is silly.

Quote
Fortunately I'm still protected by the "free expression of religion" clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, so they can't do a damn thing about it.
So you would use what you disagree with to support your opinion? The constitution was penned by men who were willing to die for the right to be Protestant. They were lifelong, practicing Protestants and their Biblical beliefs invaded every part of their life including the documents that we in the USA hold very dear.

I don't see why I should form my religious opinions according to what someone else believed long ago, whether or not they wrote an important document or not. Those who wrote the Magna Carta were Catholic, and those who wrote the Old Testament were of course Jewish. But that doesn't imply one must be Catholic or Jewish.

Actually, some commonly observed Western customs are distinctly un-Christian. If we were to make everything Christian, we'd have to change the names of the weekdays (for Tuesday is named after one of my favorite bands), and move Christmas to a more likely date for the birth of Christ, and call 'Hell' by its original Hebrew name, 'Gehennom', or at least something like it, as in French. That last one has caused much confusion. Hel is where one goes when a warrior smacks him with a huge tree trunk: "Rívur upp eikikelvi stór / hann lemjir summar til heljar"

For the "scientific" mind to discount something based on current knowledge and theory is arrogant as science had never been very good at predicting the future.

Predicting the future is integral to science. It's the only good way to test its reliability.

And lastly, to ignore spiritual issues in the name of science will doom society as history has revealed often (what was the last war over scientific beliefs...)

To the best of my knowledge, there have never been wars over scientific beliefs, but many over religion.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 08:04:08 am by hanumizzle » Logged

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tomh38
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« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2007, 08:52:17 am »

I want to stay away from the religious discussion, but Mr. hanumizzle made an interesting linguistic point on which I'd like to comment.

The term Gehenna was, if I remember correctly, originally a reference to the Hinnom Valley, a place outside Jerusalem where people would throw their garbage.  It was always on fire, sort of like the constant tire-fire in Springfield from The Simpsons.  As you can imagine, the place probably stank pretty badly.  To the best of my knowledge, by the time of Jesus the place had become metaphor for a place of eternal punishment (eternal flames, horrible stench, people throwing stuff on you all the time, etc.).  This is all from memory, so I could be wrong on some of these points.

I imagine, though this is only speculation, that Tolkien's Mordor is based both on this and the traditional Christian idea of Hell, complete with a devil (Sauron).

When I think of Redmond, Washington, I imagine either the Hinnom Valley or Mordor.  Grin

Nothing I stated above is a commentary on any religious belief in the existence or non-existence of an eternal place of punishment of any kind.

exeterdad,
I like you too ... you've given me some good advice and helped me solve an annoying problem with Thunar the other day.  Just so you know, I don't like you in any kind of homer-sexual kind of way.  Wink
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exeterdad
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« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2007, 09:05:57 am »

Quote
I don't like you in any kind of homer-sexual kind of way
This is comforting news!
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« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2007, 09:26:44 am »

I want to stay away from the religious discussion, but Mr. hanumizzle made an interesting linguistic point on which I'd like to comment.

The term Gehenna was, if I remember correctly, originally a reference to the Hinnom Valley, a place outside Jerusalem where people would throw their garbage.  It was always on fire, sort of like the constant tire-fire in Springfield from The Simpsons.  As you can imagine, the place probably stank pretty badly.  To the best of my knowledge, by the time of Jesus the place had become metaphor for a place of eternal punishment (eternal flames, horrible stench, people throwing stuff on you all the time, etc.).  This is all from memory, so I could be wrong on some of these points.

All true. Hinnom Valley today is not a bad place to spend eternity...a bit of a hot climate for my tastes, but not bad.



I imagine, though this is only speculation, that Tolkien's Mordor is based both on this and the traditional Christian idea of Hell, complete with a devil (Sauron).

The true 'Devil' in his legendarium was the Vala Melkor (He Who Arises in Might), who came to be known as Morgoth (The Dark Enemy of the World). Sauron was the mightiest of his lieutenants, which goes to show you how powerful Morgoth was, before the other Valar shut him away into the void. So Sauron is a 'fallen angel' as it were, having turned against the will of Eru the creator.



The blighted lands of Mordor, Angband, Anfauglith, etc., probably have some connection to the Christian Hell, and his experiences as a combat veteran from World War I probably play some role as well.

Quote
Suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless.

Sounds like chemical warfare to me.

And Dunharrow is a dead-ringer for Nifelhel, full of ghastly oath-breakers.

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« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2007, 09:44:29 am »

I want to stay away from the religious discussion

Basically, they don't get out of hand as long as you don't use rhetoric, harsh sarcasm, or name-calling, and, in keeping with learning a Scandinavian language, I have deprecated those habits.
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tomh38
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« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2007, 09:53:56 am »

Good stuff hanumizzle ... goes to show two things:  1) You've got a lot of fantastic knowledge in that mind of yours, and 2) Tolkien drew on so many sources, it's just incredible.  Probably a lot of stuff we'll never know about, too.  The man was a genius.

I remember Melkor/Morgoth from the Silmarillion and some of the other books that Christopher Tolkien published after his father's death.  There's a wealth of knowledge about how Tolkien developed his worlds in there.  If I remember correctly, Melkor was originally on of the greatest of the Valar, but was proud and took the music of Eru Ilúvatar and altered it to his own liking.  I think this was the beginning of his downfall, which eventually led to his being cast out into the void (which you mentioned).  I suppose that "the void" is the real "Hell" in Tolkien's mythos, since Morgoth would be eternally cut off from Eru.  Places like Angband and later on Mordor were more like "hell on middle-earth" I suppose.

Side note ... I once visited Oxford, and made a special point the visit the pub The Eagle and the Child, where Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and others used to hang out and discuss the stuff they were writing.  There's a plaque there commemorating their meetings.  It was about as moving an experience as I've had, akin to when I stood at the graves of Keats and Shelley in Rome, or when I got to hold the jar which contains Einstein's brain (okay, I never did that last part, but apparently Dr. Thomas Harvey did remove Einstein's brain and stored it in some mason jars in his office somewhere in Kansas for a couple of decades - creepy).

Great pics too, hanumizzle.
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M0E-lnx
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« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2007, 09:57:07 am »

M0E-lnx,

Does your avatar represent what you really look like?  Are you really some kind of futuristic cyborg dude?  If so, I'd really like to know what you do for a living.  By the way, I am a biohazard (flatulence).  Grin

exeterdad,

Scroll back a few replies on this thread
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tomh38
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« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2007, 10:04:38 am »

M0E-lnx,

Licensed electrician!!  No wonder you have to wear all that gear.  Electricity is dangerymoust!  Dat's what my daddy told me.

Seriously, question:  if a socket in a ceiling lamp keeps burning out light bulbs after a few days (different batches) could that be a sign of a wiring problem?  I've been trying to get an electrician over here, but I'm going have to wait another two weeks or so.  For the time being I'm leaving it switched off with no bulb in it, but I'm sort of curious ... thought you might know.

Tom
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MikeCindi
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« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2007, 10:25:26 am »

Nicely put in your posts hanumizzle. There are a few statement that I would contend about but mostly my points, which you elaborated on, are that there are many ways to interpret information and the conclusions that people come to are quite varied. Sometimes the factors to influence those conclusion have little to do with the presented information. I would not want to belittle another because they didn't interpret ancient or modern literature the way I do but if you make the statements that others find inflamatory you'll probably get flames. Since, to my knowledge, I've never met anyone who frequents this forum I can only assess what they reveal here. I didn't think any less of you when you were having difficulties last year and said you didn't ascribe to religion. I've always found that the common thread of VL was such that people could come from their various backgrounds, etc. and interact in a lot of interesting topics (at least to me) but especially linux. Of course I'm not anatagonistic towards Microsoft which possibly puts me in the wrong forum.  Roll Eyes

I was happy to see Vanger back in the mix. What is the rate of pulsation because this forum isn't the same with out you. Of course I get used to reading various people's responses since I've been a part here and appreciate the insight it provides for many of us linux newbs.

BTW, other jobs I've had/places I've worked include: newspaper delivery, Der Wienersnitzel, yard work for a professional building next to a hospital, janitor, computer operator for Amoco, research assistant in med school, and then as mentioned earlier in this post.
Mike
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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2007, 10:28:43 am »

Good stuff hanumizzle ... goes to show two things:  1) You've got a lot of fantastic knowledge in that mind of yours, and 2) Tolkien drew on so many sources, it's just incredible.  Probably a lot of stuff we'll never know about, too.  The man was a genius.

One of the finest philologists of the 20th century to be sure. Perhaps of all time.

I remember Melkor/Morgoth from the Silmarillion and some of the other books that Christopher Tolkien published after his father's death.  There's a wealth of knowledge about how Tolkien developed his worlds in there.  If I remember correctly, Melkor was originally on of the greatest of the Valar, but was proud and took the music of Eru Ilúvatar and altered it to his own liking.

He harshed everyone's mellow at the jam session. And yes he was the greatest Vala.

I think this was the beginning of his downfall, which eventually led to his being cast out into the void (which you mentioned).  I suppose that "the void" is the real "Hell" in Tolkien's mythos, since Morgoth would be eternally cut off from Eru.  Places like Angband and later on Mordor were more like "hell on middle-earth" I suppose.

Well, the land of the dead (which is physically in Valinor), the Halls of Mandos is like vanilla Hel: like a boring-ass clinic waiting room where there's nothing to read but 'Highlights'.

The 'Hells' on Middle-earth of course spawned scads of black metal bands like Gorgoroth later on.
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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2007, 10:30:56 am »

I didn't think any less of you when you were having difficulties last year and said you didn't ascribe to religion.

I'm religious but I'm not. Kind of like that Jabali fellow.
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tomh38
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2007, 11:29:40 am »

"Highlights" - good gawd I hated that magazine when I was a kid.

The whole story of Melkor/Morgoth reminds me of when I used to play trombone in a jazz band way back when.  Everybody got their turn at improv, but we all knew to meld what we were playing with what everyone else was doing, or it would ruin the whole thing.  Good lesson in life, too, I suppose.

Now I want to go back and re-read all of Tolkien.  Some of the stuff you've pointed out has reminded me that it's been too long, and a lot of that stuff has gone stale in my mind.  From what I remember the Elves had to go to the Halls of Mandos to await their final judgement when the world ends, or another incarnation, I forget which, and nobody knew what the fate of Men and Dwarves was after death.  So as I interpret it there really is no "Hell" in the Christian sense, except maybe for what happened to Morgoth, and unless the Men who turned to evil and allied themselves with either Morgoth or later on Sauron were cast out into the void as well.  I suppose that the same would go for Dwarves who turned to evil, and Orcs seem to be evil by nature (though they were originally Elves who were twisted and corrupted by Morgoth if I recall, so perhaps they have a chance at another go around after a stop-off in Mandos).  Tolkien left a lot of these things unclear in the stuff that I've read, but I haven't read it all by a long shot, and I've forgotten a lot of what I've read.
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« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2007, 11:37:13 am »

To kill an Orc does it a favor...one frees the Elven soul inside I think.
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cintyram
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« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2007, 12:10:11 pm »

currently software process coordinator + R&D Engineer at a major corp.
past gigs include teaching and software development. thats pretty much it.
i have participated in a lot of other activities and management and organization stuff.. but not professionally.   most of the time i love to learn new things and do fun stuff like sports etc.

Hey what are the moderators doing? this whole religion thing is way out of line for this thread!
despite requests from metvas, those posts seem to not go away.

cheers
ram
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