Religious Flame War here..

[Triarius Fidelis]

2)  Because of statement #1, I'm going to stay out of this discussion.  I'll probably follow it, but it's not likely I'll post anything.  If you want to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches about something, you might want to ask hanumizzle, because he knows everything.

That I knew about a particular encyclical is kind of lucky, because I saw it on the talk.origins site once. However, there is a book in my house called 'Christ Among Us' that is a comprehensive guide to modern Catholicism. I'll reference that if need be.

[tomh38]

Just to clarify one thing:

I don't think that hanumizzle knows literally everything, but I do think he has a great deal of knowledge and the ability to explain things in terms most people will understand.

hanumizzle,

If I were to pick someone to explain Catholicism in these forums, I would pick you.  This is the case for a few reasons.  You always approach things fairly, you have a great deal of knowledge of many religions, and you treat people with respect.  I know that you're not a Catholic, and you got lucky with that encyclical, but in this regard I would say that you're more fair and impartial than I am myself; these matters are too close to my personal life and beliefs for me to avoid angry responses to what I might perceive as attacks.  On the other hand, if I thought you made an error regarding a matter of fact, I would look up the matter myself and let you know in some way what I thought the actual fact to be.

Thanks everyone,

Tom

[MikeCindi]

I don't think that hanumizzle knows literally everything,...

Forgive me Tom; we seem to be batting dialoge back and forth indirectly and I think both of us are possibly not getting the "full comprehension" of what the other is saying. I apologize for my part in that. I did understand that your reference to hanumizzle was "tongue in cheek" and responded perhaps too literally to that. Hanumizzle seems to be quite the well read person with good retention of the content.
As for objectivity, it's what I do all day long and when I'm here (VL Lounge) I perhaps have let myself be less so. Generally I just "walk away" from content that is objectionable to me. Anyway I'm looking forward to the pizza...
Mike

[gacl]

Heh, how about this:

I'm the most atheist person i know, yet. . . i work at a church ( i do the music ).

Don't look at me like that! They asked me if i was raised a catholic.

Honestly, i really need the money. And the point is that after a year of listening to the sermons i have found few redeeming features about organized religion. I always smirk to myself everytime i hear something like: "O, God, save us from homosexuality". I can understand, though, the soothing effect that it has on people. . . like smoking a good. . . eh. . . well. . . cigarrette.

And vi is better! *sticking tongue out*

[tomh38]

Mike,

I figured you knew that what I was wrote was tongue-in-cheek.  I just wanted to be sure.  It's clear from your comments that you're very intelligent, but I just wanted to be certain that people didn't think that I thought hanumizzle is literally omniscient.   On another note, I think it's practically impossible for anybody to be completely objective, and you spend your days being as objective as possible as a physician.  This is, after all, "The Lounge," and I think it's the best place in the VL forums to express one's opinions.  As long as people don't get nasty, and you haven't, I think this is a great place to let go and feel free to express one's personal opinions, without trying to be objective.  The way I see it, dialogue about any matter can help people to at least understand and tolerate one another.  It's better than expressing an opinion by blowing yourself up and taking a lot of innocent people with you.

Tom

[Verlager]

[ mod edit ]

I sure hope it's going to be a respectful discussion.
I'll just leave this thread to those of you who think you can have a decent discussion about this. If you think you can't, please stay out of this discussion! That way it'll be more enjoyable for all of us.

Nuff said, I removed a disrespectful post.

greetings ,The Headacher (keeping a close eye on this thread)


[ /mod edit ]

[Triarius Fidelis]

Heh, how about this:

I'm the most atheist person i know, yet. . . i work at a church ( i do the music ).

I can't possibly begin to explain my opinion. Well, maybe I can, but I won't. Ok, maybe. Think of typing on a keyboard. I feel the concavity of the keys, and I hear them click. Occasionally, I even look at a few non-alphanumeric keys. In a superficial way, these feelings can be explained in terms of activity in the nervous system.

What makes me believe in some kind of supernatural is that the explanation is no deeper. Mere chemistry doesn't explain how I feel when I listen to Kanda Bongo Man, or the feeling of a leaden pendant on my chest when I reflect on the past and what might have been. To me, some 'other' is the explanation. Maybe that's hasty, and it's probably even a logical fallacy. As such, I won't say it's 'fact' or even 'logical', only a strong intuitive conviction.

How this supernatural interacts with us, whether it cares about us or can care about us, what morals it dictates, or whether it can make a boulder it can't move, that I leave to others. I am somewhat pessimistic though. For instance, Darfur is the first war, make that genocide, perpetrated in a large part over *water scarcity*. That alone will be a major problem in coming years. A 'Nirnaeth Arnoediad' may soon come.

[gacl]

I can't possibly begin to explain my opinion. Well, maybe I can, but I won't.

I know what you mean here. In the past i was open to this kind of discussions, but not anymore. Either someone gets offended, or people start to raise their voices, or people just want to believe. . . period.

"Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes and wishes he was certain of." - Samuel Clemens, AKA Mark Twain.

[Triarius Fidelis]

I can't possibly begin to explain my opinion. Well, maybe I can, but I won't.

I know what you mean here. In the past i was open to this kind of discussions, but not anymore. Either someone gets offended, or people start to raise their voices, or people just want to believe. . . period.

Yeah, that's why I avoided the 'morals' and 'purpose' parts. In any case I don't cling stubbornly to my dogmatic beliefs and would gladly see them challenged.

[tomh38]

Nirnaeth Arnoediad - I had to look that up.  Didn't even know it was from Tolkien.  A "Battle of Unnumbered Tears," or so sayeth Wikipedia.  We've already had two of those in the last century, and barely squeaked past having a third (and quite possibly final) one.  A lot of people don't like to think about the possibility of another even more devastating world war, because it's so horrifying to contemplate.  The mind and the imagination sort of slide off it as if it were some sort of frictionless surface.  This is even true of something like the Battle of Verdun, the carnage of which has rarely been seen in history.

All right, I'm in this discussion now, but I'd like to start with a question.

For those who are religious, I would ask:  How do you answer the classic "Problem of Evil?"  I'm deliberately leaving this vague, because religions and religious views are so varied (both around the world and in history).

For those who aren't religious:  Do you think there's a "Problem of Evil?"  If so, what is your thinking on the matter?  How do you deal with the reality of evil, intellectually and emotionally?

I'll post my own thoughts on this matter later on.  I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and I need to collect my ideas on the subject and put them into some kind of coherent order.

[Vanger]

Mere chemistry doesn't explain how I feel when I listen to Kanda Bongo Man, or the feeling of a leaden pendant on my chest when I reflect on the past and what might have been.

Yes, it does. Sorry . It tries to, at least, if the simulation is not exact enough.

Robot #2: With all your modern science are you any closer to understanding the mystery of how a robot walks or talks?
Farnsworth: Yes, you idiot. The circuit diagram is right here on the inside of your case.
Robot #2: I choose to believe what I was programmed to believe.

For those who aren't religious:  Do you think there's a "Problem of Evil?"  If so, what is your thinking on the matter?  How do you deal with the reality of evil, intellectually and emotionally?

What is "evil"?

[gacl]

I don't cling stubbornly to my dogmatic beliefs and would gladly see them challenged.

I thought about this for a long time. Some things came to mind: conciousness VS soul, HAL 9000, emotion-altering drugs, infinity getting in the way of science, etc. . . but i'm not going to ask anything. I think that the best person to challenge you is yourself. There is something about questioning people's beliefs that makes me feel sort of pretentious. So, i think that if someone wants to really start looking for answers a good book is a start.

Back in high school i did a report on atheism based on George H. Smith's book Atheism: The Case Againt God. It's very well written; i highly recommend it. The teacher, however, was a southern-type religious black lady and she was not amused; in fact, she was upset! She found the whole paper offensive ( she stated it clearly in big red ink ) and i failed that report, and i failed the class.

In a March 1996 profile by Jim Dawson in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Carl Sagan talked about his then-new book The Demon Haunted World and was asked about his personal spiritual views: "My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it," he said. "An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there is evidence for it, so I'm agnostic."

[tomh38]

What is "evil"?

I deliberately left that term undefined, so that people would feel free to respond according to their own points of view, rather than in opposition to or agreement with my definition.  Some people think that evil exists, some don't.  No doubt once somebody addresses the issue the discussion will be colored by what the first person said, but I would like to start off as open-ended as possible.

I do have views on the matter, but on this often difficult topic I would like to see what other people think.  It might help me clarify my own thoughts on the matter.

If nobody is interested in addressing the question, that's okay too.

[gacl]

What is "evil"?

It also depends on who defines evil. My definition may be different from yours, or that guy's, or that other guy's, or George W. Bush's, or Osama Bin Laden's, etc. . .

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. . ." - Adolf Hitler. From his autobiography Mein Kampf ( Chapter 2 )

[tomh38]

gacl

I'm in complete agreement that it depends on who defines evil.  Even a seeming tautology in which "evil" is defined as "something bad" could get you into trouble, since I've met people who have told me that in their view pursuing evil is the highest good (not sure how serious they were, since these people had usually ingested some form of intoxicant ... but still).

Tom