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Author Topic: One more humble suggestion...  (Read 7814 times)
saulgoode
Vectorite
***
Posts: 340



« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2007, 03:02:57 pm »

I have recently downloaded the latest stable version of Debian for i386.  That's only for i386, mind you, and it takes up 21 CDs.

http://mirror.yandex.ru/debian-cd/4.0_r1/i386/iso-cd/

Oh, it's a lot of packages!

Indeed! One might even say it's a mess of packages. In addition to 5% of those packages being documentation (included in SW binary packages) and 10% being development packages (also included in SW packages), there are 41 different ALSA packages, 146 Apache packages, 145 OpenOffice packages, 101 kernel packages, and 248 kernel module packages. That's nearly 700 various packages that are covered by about a dozen Slackware packages.

If you are happy with Debian's turning every single program into dozens of packages, I am happy for you. Some of us prefer a simpler approach.

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A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.
blackbelt_jones
Member
*
Posts: 56


« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2007, 03:37:26 pm »

Quote
Indeed! One might even say it's a mess of packages. In addition to 5% of those packages being documentation (included in SW binary packages) and 10% being development packages (also included in SW packages), there are 41 different ALSA packages, 146 Apache packages, 145 OpenOffice packages, 101 kernel packages, and 248 kernel module packages. That's nearly 700 various packages that are covered by about a dozen Slackware packages.

If you are happy with Debian's turning every single program into dozens of packages, I am happy for you. Some of us prefer a simpler approach.

 Geez, seems like an hour ago the stories of all those packages was just a myth, pure hype.   But now there are too many packages?    Roll Eyes

Listen, maybe it would be a mess, but the package manager sorts it out.  When I look for something, it's generally there, and so are the dependancies, which the package manager locates and assembles for me.  Less googling? less compiling?  Downloading , installing, and  dependancies resolved in one line command?  It's simple enough for me.

But there's a lot more to computing than package management.  Vector has the edge in performance, and I've used slack before to great advantage in some situations.  I installed slack on an old box with 32 mb RAM that, if memory serves, wouldn't even let me install debian.  There's really nothing to be competitive about.

Plus, in spite of our differences, I think we can all agree on one thing:

Ubuntu sucks.  Am I right? Grin
« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 04:15:32 pm by blackbelt_jones » Logged
DrGrov
Packager
Vectorite
****
Posts: 106



« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2007, 05:48:42 pm »



blackbelt_jones,

You mention that the package manager sorts it out, I can agree on that standpoint. Don't you think that slapt-get/gslapt will get the job done as good as the Debian equivalent? Cheesy

I much rather have a dozen Slackware packages taking care of all that instead of downloading approximately 5-10 different packages for each purposes.
In the long run I would have at least 200 packages needed to be downloaded, and to what use when I can make it simple?

I agree with saulgoode on the FACT that some of prefer a simpler approach to get it done.
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Stop complaining about everything, do something about it instead.
blackbelt_jones
Member
*
Posts: 56


« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2007, 07:04:45 pm »

Quote
blackbelt_jones,

You mention that the package manager sorts it out, I can agree on that standpoint. Don't you think that slapt-get/gslapt will get the job done as good as the Debian equivalent? Cheesy

I much rather have a dozen Slackware packages taking care of all that instead of downloading approximately 5-10 different packages for each purposes.
In the long run I would have at least 200 packages needed to be downloaded, and to what use when I can make it simple?

I agree with saulgoode on the FACT that some of prefer a simpler approach to get it done.

No, I'm sorry.  You just don't understand how it works.  I'm pretty sure you don't have to download more software for debian. **

I'm willing to grant Vector superior performance, and gladly, but this idea that Debian has too many software packages in its repositories is just bizarre.  It's like saying Google has too many websites.  You're not supposed to surf every website in Google; you're supposed to be able to easily find whatever website you need, all of it in one place. Likewise, you're not supposed to download and install everything that's on the 21 debian disks.  It's just that pretty much all of the free gnu software in the world is there...  AND IT'S DEPENDANCIES, in one place, and that gives the user the most possible options.

Time and again, I went to slapt-get, and couldn't find what I was looking for... and so I had to go searching, and building, and searching for dependencies, and building dependencies, and dependencies of dependencies, and that is not "simple".   SImple is everything and its dependancies in one place, where a single command can locate, calculate, download and install all of them together.

The thing is, I think that Vector is pretty cool,  I wish that I'd been able to make it work for me, and I hope to use it again real soon, for my second computer.  I consider it my failure that I couldn't get it working on my main desktop just the way I wanted, and I think in many ways Vector is the superior product... but somehow, we're arguing about the one thing where debian has a leg up on almost everything else (the "almost" being a nod to other debian-based systems), and your idea of "simplicity" is exactly the opposite of the end user's reality.  Too many packages?  Are you just messing with me? Smiley 

**Actually, I guess that depends.  I mean if you want the whole distro on CDs well, yeah I guess that does mean downloading more software-- but of course, downloading 21 isos isn't complicated.  It's just BIG.  More importantly,  that's not usually how it's done.  I did it that way because I intend to have a debian system running offline, where I won't have access to the repositories, but anyone intending to run debian online can download and burn a net install image of maybe 170 mbs, use that to create a base system, and then download and install just what they need off the web.

And for the CD version, you're certainly not going to need all those CDs to get a decent debian install going.  I don't remember ever using beyond disk 3, maybe 4.  Disk 1 is all you need to get a bare bones gnome desktop running.  I downloaded them all because, if I'm going to be running offline, I want to be damn sure that I have access to all the software that's available, cause you just never know what's going to come up.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 07:14:50 am by blackbelt_jones » Logged
caitlyn
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2876


WWW
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2007, 11:04:44 am »

I wonder if you had all the repositories enabled for slapt-get.  We have a lot of stuff that's sat in testing for far too long and is definitely ready for prime time.  Then there's Extra.  As others have said VL isn't quite up to Debian in terms of offering everything and anything, but the repositories are expanding daily. 

A tiny example:  When 5.8 Standard was released VL was horrible in terms of internationalization.  Now there are aspell dictionaries for about everything, Firefox language packs for about everything, etc...  A lot of that is still in testing but it's there, available for you to use.
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eMachines EL-1300G desktop, 1.6GHz AMD Athlon 2650e CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6150 SE video
CentOS 6.5 (will try VL64-7.1 soon)

Toshiba Satellite A135-S4727,  Intel Pentium T2080 / 1.73 GHz, 2GB RAM, Intel GMA 950

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video, VL 7.1
caitlyn
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2876


WWW
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2007, 11:10:02 am »

Oh, and no, Ubuntu doesn't suck.  It currently ranks fourth among my favorite distros (after Vector, Wolvix, and Alixe).  OK, the live CD does suck (way too slow) but as an installed distro it's just fine. I'm actually being evil and writing this on Gutsy Gibbon Tribe 5 (64-bit) with all the latest patches.  It's very promising.  VL remains my primary distro and a VL64 5.9 install will be happening as soon as I have time -- read very soon.
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eMachines EL-1300G desktop, 1.6GHz AMD Athlon 2650e CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6150 SE video
CentOS 6.5 (will try VL64-7.1 soon)

Toshiba Satellite A135-S4727,  Intel Pentium T2080 / 1.73 GHz, 2GB RAM, Intel GMA 950

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video, VL 7.1
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