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[nubcnubdo]

As explained before, we are partners in the Microsoft Unlimited Potential Project and have recently received from them a very generous donation of $26,000 of software.  We therefore feel that as a club we must stay loyal to Microsoft.

Hehe...$26,000...that's a pretty heavy hammer.

[tomh38]

Couple of things, no2thesame:

Here in the US, you're either a child, a young person, middle-aged, or a senior citizen, the last sometimes called "seniors," "older people," "the elderly," or "that cranky guy who yells at kids to get off his lawn."

Well, I can't fault Microsoft too much for giving software to seniors.  Sure, it's one of their ways of keeping their market share, but whoever wrote the letter is probably right in saying that the seniors group as a whole wouldn't be too open to change.  People in general aren't open to change, and when new or unfamiliar technology comes along they tend to resist it, especially if it's difficult or confusing.

I have a lot of problems with Microsoft, in fact I hate the company, but I guess I would say the answer you got from the Seniors Club isn't too surprising; I personally don't find it particularly disturbing.

You might want to suggest to your LUG member who's also a member of the Seniors Club that he approach members of the Seniors to see if any of them are interested in Linux.  Older people are as diverse as any group, so I imagine you would get some takers.  If you can't get Mohammed to the mountain, etc.

With regard to what Blue Mage wrote, I have a few comments.  Women and men are at parity in terms of I.Q., and I know quite a few young women who are more computer savvy than the average guy.  The stereotype of the computer nerd is male, but I think things have changed enough to make the stereotype untrue.  So the "poor little girl" being taken advantage of by the smooth salesman ... pretty sexist, probably happens just as much to guys as girls.  We're generally naive when we're young, but everybody has to learn sooner or later that sales people always lie, and will say anything to close a sale.

Having said that, in my experience Mac people can be pretty pushy.  One time I was at the grocery store, wearing my Tux cap, and some guy with a big blue X on his t-shirt came up to me and started talking to me about OS X.  How I could run X on OS X.  How Apple hardware is superior to PC hardware.  How Apple tech support is the best in the world.  Even when I told him that I build my own machines from off the shelf parts, he wouldn't let up.  Finally I told him that I wasn't interested and had to go.  Kind of annoying, but in a way I understand since for so long Mac people took a real beating from Windows people.

[no2thesame]

They have deep pockets with lots of heavy hammers by the sound of it, nubcnubdo, but they get loads of loyalty.

You might want to suggest to your LUG member who's also a member of the Seniors Club that he approach members of the Seniors to see if any of them are interested in Linux.  Older people are as diverse as any group, so I imagine you would get some takers.  If you can't get Mohammed to the mountain, etc.

Good thinking! Will have a word. You are right though about older people being resistant to change, when my mother visits, she loves all the games on my Vector machines, but won't let me put it on her Win'98 box that she uses for Patience because 'something might go wrong and you aren't here to fix it.'

We're generally naive when we're young, but everybody has to learn sooner or later that sales people always lie, and will say anything to close a sale.

They don't always lie... I bought my first new computer for years, last December. It was the cheapest notebook in the shop (Acer Aspire 3515 with 1.7GHz Celeron, 512Mb ram - yeah got it for VL 5.9, which it runs happily) and as I was looking at it the 'salesboy' came along and said "You don't want to buy that computer" , "Why not?" I asked him. The answer was the truth "Because it can barely push the operating system"! Too true... Vista runs very slowly indeed....but he should see it now!

Having said that, in my experience Mac people can be pretty pushy.  One time I was at the grocery store, wearing my Tux cap, and some guy with a big blue X on his t-shirt came up to me and started talking to me about OS X.  How I could run X on OS X.  How Apple hardware is superior to PC hardware.  How Apple tech

I try to avoid shopping, my daughter has a (now older) Mac notebook. The sales staff were fine there.

Tux cap to the grocery store?? Have you ever had any good things happen as a result of the displaying Tux? I sometimes wear my "Software Freedom Day '07 " shirt in public and the most useful feedback I've had was from my other daughter... "Dad you're such a nerd!"

no2

[GrannyGeek]

When you say something in the form of (e.g.):

"When someone says _______ about Microsoft, people will think that person is a fanatic fanboy," that's not your roundabout way of saying "You are a fanatic fanboy."  You are in fact talking about some other people in some other place who said some other things.

Right. I was talking about other people's perceptions of those who engage in vociferous Microsoft bashing in public forums. They have the same reaction to Mac evangelists who engage in the same type of bashing.

A few other things:  Windows is terrible (in my opinion), with the possible exception of XP, if the user knows how to keep it virus and spyware free.

You're entitled to your opinion. My experience has been the opposite. I've been using Windows since 1991 and have never had any serious problems. I have very few complaints about Windows, and I have some Windows software I'll never stop using. I've used Win 3.0, 3.1, 95 original, 95B, 98SE, W2K, XP, and Vista, so I do have a lot of experience with many versions. I've also never had a virus, spyware, or adware infestation and I don't work very hard at keeping virus free beyond running up-to-date AV in the background all the time, installing Windows critical updates after they've percolated for a few days, and having safe computing habits (I don't do P2P, don't use pirated software, don't visit the seamier parts of the Internet, don't open unexpected attachments, etc.).

Dissatisfaction with Microsoft did not drive me to Linux. Curiosity did. And once here, fun keeps me here. I think Linux is way more fun than Windows. I also like the choice aspect, of which Linux offers much more than Windows.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by mentioning that somebody threatened John Dvorak with death after he said some things about Apple.  Nobody in here has made any threats against anyone.

I was using that as an example of how maniacal some people can get. I wasn't implying that anyone here was going that far. It's also not an indictment of any operating system, be it Mac or Linux (or Windows). It's not the fault of an OS if some users get religious about it. For a long time, though, the Mac had semi-official Mac Evangelists, led by Mac employee Guy Kawasaki. That kind of thing tends to attract some unstable people because it makes the OS a "cause." OS/2 had the same problem with Team OS/2, which became obnoxious and drove prospective users away.

here in the Vector Linux forums I haven't seen much in the way of Windows or Microsoft bashing outside of the Lounge.

I agree.

Personally, I thought that was one of the things the Lounge was for (to say what one thinks or feels, without being abusive to other members).  Perhaps I was wrong.

That's my understanding of the Lounge, too. Discussions of religion and politics can quickly get out of hand, so I think those are discouraged. Saying bad things about Microsoft is okay, but if I think someone is going over the top, I'll say so.
--GrannyGeek

[tomh38]

Okay, GrannyGeek, I can see what you're saying.  I apologize to you, I can see that you didn't intend to call anyone names.

On the other things, I hope we can agree to disagree (except for the things on which we agree  ).  I can see that our experiences are different, and I imagine that contributes to our different views of things.  I'm sure it's healthy and helpful also, for people who disagree (at times this can become heated) to discuss their differences.  We may not end up agreeing, but if done properly we at least learn something about other people's points of view.

Thanks for discussing.

no2thesame:  Okay, sales people don't always lie, but it's usually safer to assume that they are lying.

[tomh38]

no2thesame:

I forgot a couple of things:

When I wear the Tux cap in public, people rarely say anything.  When they do say something, it's usually "Ooh, cute little penguin."  One time a guy asked me what the penguin was for, and completely off the top of my head I said it was for the McMurdo Station Penguins, the American hockey team in Antarctica.  His response:  "Oh, cool!"  Then he asked me who they played against, and I said something like "Usually there's just one game a year against the Russians."

I don't generally talk to people about Linux unless they specifically ask me.  I've installed VL on some computers for people who told me they didn't want to use Windows anymore but didn't feel they could afford a Mac.  Some of them have gotten rid of it, some dual boot, and some have made it their only OS.  Our LUG where I live is really awful.  It's kind of a clique of smelly fat social reject (males) who actively discourage new members by belittling them.  I've thought about starting my own, but at the moment I really don't have the time or the energy.  There's a guy who lives one street over from me who has Debian on all his home machines (even the ones his kids use).  He's a Unix programmer for a chemical company (I think it's Irix that they use).  Sometimes he and I have a beer and talk Linux.

This is the cap:  http://www.thinkgeek.com/apparel/hats-ties/2998/

Finally, I have some friends who live in your state (Tweed Heads, NSW).  I realize that's pretty far up the coast from you, but you're closer to them than I am.

[exeterdad]

This is the cap:  http://www.thinkgeek.com/apparel/hats-ties/2998/

I'd wear that hat.  My kids actually are so used to me in hats that if mine falls off, or for some reason I don't have one on, they will bring me one.  I don't get it.  It's not that I have a bad haircut or anything?  But our family loves penguins, even before Linux was a part of this house.  I've a feeling the Tux hat would be popular choice.

Oh....  sorry.  Didn't mean to stray. Back to the topic.

I wish MS would stay out of the OLPC.  I can't shake the gut feeling their efforts are merely long term investments.  Not because they have big unselfish hearts, and are getting involved to improve the chances of these children's future. 

[tomh38]

exeterdad:  Maybe you have evil-looking scary eyes and your kids want them shaded? 

On the OLPC  ... GrannyGeek did say
 

You can't seriously expect Microsoft to pass up an opportunity to get in on this. They owe it to their stockholders.

I strongly suspect that's their real motive, and that's the problem.  Personally I think that Microsoft needs to be kept out of this, just because they have such a long history of doing whatever they can get away with to extend their markets - and that's not what the OLPC is supposed to be about.  Perhaps they are doing this because they want to help the kids and they think XP Lite would be better than Linux for the OLPC.  Probably at least some people at Microsoft believe that.

Nevertheless, given their past behavior, I think it would be better to err on the side of caution and keep them out of it.

[BlueMage]

To quote BlueMage...

Still, it breaks my heart to see a smooth salesman (or worse, a so-called Mac Genius) convince some poor little blonde girl that everything she can do in Windows, she can do in Mac and better.  Of course, she's never going to do anything more strenuous than browse the intarwebs and maybe type up a few documents for her arts degree, but still, to see an innocent, naive young woman taken advantage of like that really doesn't sit right with me.

Why doesn't this 'sit right with me'? Is anyone being taken advantage of here? How exactly?

no2

The poor girl has been misled!  She has been told she can do so much more with a Mac!  This is clearly not right!  And if Microsoft charges the earth for its products, Apple adds Heaven to the price to top it off.

And Tomh38, I do believe you took my comment the wrong way my friend.  While it's true that plenty of males are downright incompetent when it comes to computers - Windows or otherwise - this particular instance I observed while abusing Myer's generosity with intarwebs was of a young lady - no older than 20 - being talked around by not one, but three seperate Myer staff, dead-set on convincing her that her Mac would never crash, it would never get virii, she could do anything she does on Windows, etc.  While the second may indeed be true (lol market share) the first and third are plainly wrong.  And THAT I take objection to.

Of course, I didn't do or say anything - not my place to save folks from themselves.  But it still made me feel like a little piece inside of me died

[rbistolfi]

I don't think the superiority of Windows over OS is evident. Honestly, my brother does some audio stuff for a friend who do movies, and we've seen a G3 doing realtime stuff with great stability. But that is just my experience. People, personal experiences are not valid. Every time we have this discussion I hear "my experience..., I never had a pro... We..., etc". I don't have Windows in my house anymore, and I am not working on computers at the factory since a year or so. I am not used to it anymore and I had to do some stuff on my sister's new lappy loaded with Vista. A simple thing like checking my own IP was a pain. The menu is really different, I couldn't find a way to open a shell from it, I navigated through many windows including "Networking" until I remembered [WIN + R], typed cmd.exe and then ipconfig. In my VL box would be a minute. That doesn't prove Linux is better than Windows, that proves I am used to linux, and nothing else.
So if we want to have more than a little flame and put some ideas in the table, we have to take some distance and look wider.
About the salesman, he lives selling, he will never say "Windows is better, check Vista". If the next week he would be working for a shop selling  MS machines, he wouldl say the same with the makes switched.

[tomh38]

BlueMage: 

Kid's gotta learn some time, and getting ripped off is one of the best ways to learn that people will lie to get your money.  Yeah, I would agree ... not your place to save people from themselves, unless of course it's something more important (talking someone out of suicide comes to mind).

Maybe this 20 year old young woman learned the important lesson that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.  Or maybe she already knew that, and didn't buy the Mac.

Maybe you already know this and are using virii because it's become sort of a joke on the Internet, but the plural of virus is viruses.  I know that usage forms language, not dictionaries and grammar books (ultimately) but that word ... virii ... makes me sick to my stomach; it's an affront to both English and Latin.

Nothing against you personally for using the word, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Tom

[BlueMage]

I shall say that what you have described is indeed the case.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is spouting hateful lies!

[tomh38]

Blue Mage ... this.

[tomh38]

They might not be the spawn of Satan but they do dodge taxes.

Just like every other big company.  In this case it looks more or less legal, but even if it weren't they have a brazilian lawyers to take care of things.

[GrannyGeek]

Okay, GrannyGeek, I can see what you're saying.  I apologize to you, I can see that you didn't intend to call anyone names.

No problem. I should have worded things so they couldn't be misunderstood.

I can see that our experiences are different, and I imagine that contributes to our different views of things.  I'm sure it's healthy and helpful also, for people who disagree (at times this can become heated) to discuss their differences.  We may not end up agreeing, but if done properly we at least learn something about other people's points of view.

Right. No matter what the topic is, it annoys me when everyone in a discussion expresses the same point of view. Obviously, there have to be other opinions that have validity. Otherwise every intelligent, honest person would agree, and that's not the case.
--GrannyGeek