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Author Topic: vista sucks  (Read 11292 times)
GrannyGeek
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2007, 08:34:20 pm »

Well, the argument here is MS is not promoting the Progress of Science.

In your opinion. That certainly is not self-evident. At any rate, copyright is assumed. You don't have to prove that your work promotes the progress of science. The idea is that without copyright, authors and creative people will not have so much incentive to invest the time it takes to give concrete expression to ideas and thus the progress of science and arts would be impeded.

Copyright is not the same as a patent. Computer programs are copyrighted as expressions of an idea and are thus accorded the same status as a literary work. A patent applies to an invention or process. You are supposed to prove that your idea is original, which brings up questions of "prior art." Prior art is probably the sticking point, as it is time consuming and costly to find examples of prior art.
--GrannyGeek
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bigpaws
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Posts: 1847


« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2007, 08:38:16 pm »

From the Copyright site
Quote
What Is Not Protected by Copyright?

Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:

    *

      Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of expression (for example, choreographic works that have not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches or performances that have not been written or recorded)
    *

      Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents
    *

      Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration
    *


Is an OS not a system or process?

Bigpaws
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GrannyGeek
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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2007, 08:52:19 pm »

But isn't the discussion more of patent?

I don't know. I've lost track.<g>

Quote
How is a copyright different from a patent or a trademark?
Copyright protects original works of authorship, while a patent protects inventions or discoveries. Ideas and discoveries are not protected by the copyright law, although the way in which they are expressed may be.

Not "may be," "is." Any tangible expression of an original idea is protected by copyright. "Original" means you didn't copy something that belongs to someone else. You hold copyright to your e-mails. Someone who uses them without your permission is breaking copyright law. However, since our e-mails generally have no monetary value, no court would take on your case.

As for patents, since the Constitutional clause mentions "Inventors" and "Discoveries" it would appear that patents may be covered. I Am Not A Lawyer, though, so I don't know if patents are considered to have their origin and authorization in the so-called Copyright Clause.
--GrannyGeek
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GrannyGeek
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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2007, 09:10:31 pm »

Is an OS not a system or process?

IANAL--I Am Not A Lawyer. But I do know that computer programs have the same protection under copyright law as literary works.

According to the URUGUAY ROUND AGREEMENT: TRIPS of the World Trade Organization:
Part II — Standards concerning the availability, scope and use of Intellectual Property Rights
Article 10:
"Computer Programs and Compilations of Data

"1. Computer programs, whether in source or object code, shall be protected as literary works under the Berne Convention (1971)."

I don't see how an operating system would not fall under that provision.
--GrannyGeek
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rbistolfi
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2007, 09:17:27 pm »

the origin of the AIDS problem is poverty, and the problem is endemic, it expands in a geometrical way, and Bill's donations are linear. MS model contribute to generate that problem.

Whoa! AIDS afflicts both rich and poor. Social status and money don't protect anyone. Of course, impoverished people have no access to medical care and the medicines that can extend their lives, and there are millions of orphans left by parents who died of AIDS. So it's not just a problem of poverty, but poverty makes everything much worse.

Ok, perhaps this will carry us far away from our topic. But the statistics shows the opposite. Of course rich people is not immortal. But the conditions to get a disease (is that the correct word?) are given by the context where we live. Cholera is very weird in the world. But we, a poor country, have it. Because we have no resources to keep a clean, healthy environment, and childes with no food have a tendency, and no water pipes causes infected water. In the same way, we have much more AIDS cases than better countries, because we don't have the resources (human and material resources) to prevent it. This is valid for almost every serious medical problem. Just look at the numbers in poor and rich countries. BTW, medical patents are very important in this problem.
But my point is, a) we are wasting resources. b) we are pushing the direction of research and the investment in research to areas pointed by a marketing strategy and computers are not helping as much as they can, To be honest, they are not helping at all. They are just an element of comfort.

Quote
Quote
The charity thing has no value by itself. If we don't attack the main problem has no value at all.

Tell that to someone who has access to medicine because of the Gates Foundation. I have a cousin who is involved in college education opportunities for poor people in rural areas, particularly Native Americans. She and her husband have a proven model for making higher education possible for these people who otherwise could never have access to it. They needed funding because the state either wasn't interested or couldn't afford it. The Gates Foundation came through for them and as a result, many young people were able to continue their educations who otherwise could not have. The Gates Foundation does not just give money away. They look for plans that involve people of the area and that can continue past the initial funding.

we could quote tons of particular cases and my argument is still there. I admire your cousin very much, and that is a good thing. But if he is promoting a business model that gives the back to the hole world, that activity would be as the Royalty throwing coins to the poor people of the village.

Quote
Quote
I don't live in USA, and the patents system is a joke.

That's pretty much universally acknowledged. Microsoft is among the companies that want the system to change. What we have now is a constant string of lawsuits. A company can't just refuse to play the game because they're all caught in the system. The law needs to be changed. Patents won't disappear, however.

Taken, we need a patent system which actually defends the science. The current is just subordinating science to the market. MS is worry because they will have no software to publish without stealing code from someone else. 

Quote
Quote
The Berne Convention has no value in the hole world and legal doesn't mean right. Laws can be changed.

The Berne Convention has over 160 signatories, including Argentina. In addition, over 140 member countries of the World Trade Organization are bound by the Agreement on Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS). Argentina is a member of the WTO.

I know, what I am trying to say (very badly) is that is not the writing of God. Even more, part of the international copyright convention was signed in Buenos Aires, I think in 1900.

Quote
Of course "legal" doesn't mean "right," but since people disagree about what is right, law determines what can be done without adverse consequences, such as fines and prison. Yes, laws can be changed, but until they are, we must obey the laws we have or face the consequences. Consensus is required before a law is changed, and I don't think we are near consensus on issues of copyright and patents.
--GrannyGeek

Of course! But I disagree about "consensus". Consensus didn't made the current law, was power, and fight. The war is mother of all the things, used to say some greek. And we have to keep in mind, people has not to be pushed to break the law! That is, the circumstances are very important, and the hole problem of law is how to pass from a general law to a particular case. That is not easy even more if the social environment is very aggressive, like the case of poor countries. 

Well, the argument here is MS is not promoting the Progress of Science.

In your opinion. That certainly is not self-evident. At any rate, copyright is assumed. You don't have to prove that your work promotes the progress of science. The idea is that without copyright, authors and creative people will not have so much incentive to invest the time it takes to give concrete expression to ideas and thus the progress of science and arts would be impeded.

Copyright is not the same as a patent. Computer programs are copyrighted as expressions of an idea and are thus accorded the same status as a literary work. A patent applies to an invention or process. You are supposed to prove that your idea is original, which brings up questions of "prior art." Prior art is probably the sticking point, as it is time consuming and costly to find examples of prior art.
--GrannyGeek

Of course, is my opinion. I think I give some arguments to support that idea though. Some are very bad, some not, some were missed in the debate. But - I think - the opposite is not clear neither, MS is at least, walking in the edge. We, as spectators and actors, can discuss the thing, but power will decide. Finally the true both, time, will judge.
Patents and Copyright are not the same, indeed. The GPL means nothing without copyright (you can't license something you are not the author). The difference between patents and copyrights is very clear to me. But the way we are using that tools (that is what the law, and perhaps the hole language, is) is under question here.

I think power and money imply some kind of responsibility, some kind of duty. We have a duty with the world around us. And more if that world gives us a privileged position.

Well, I think I have enough to think about. Thanks for a good debate, again.

EDIT: I want to re-read "The Library of Babel" story by Borges now. There is a logical argument I think goes against the "author" idea. And is an incredible piece of literature. For those interested in the "software" concept, there is something there. I give a famous english translation, here: http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/library_of_babel.html
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 09:24:54 pm by rbistolfi » Logged

"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."
Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise.

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bigpaws
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2007, 10:03:49 pm »

Quote
We have a duty with the world around us.

I couldn't agree more.

Bigpaws
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lordreinko
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« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2007, 07:04:35 pm »

lol very true
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tomh38
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Posts: 913



« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2007, 08:10:46 am »

Um ... what were we talking about?  Oh yeah:  Vista sucks. 

"Homer: Yeah, Moe, that team sure did suck last night. They just plain sucked! I've seen teams suck before, but they were the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked!" - from The Simpsons

To paraphrase:  I've seen OSes suck before, but Vista is the suckiest suck that ever sucked.

Okay, that's not really fair.  Windows 95 was worse, and Windows ME was possibly even worse than that.  But Vista sucks pretty bad.  It's a resource pig, it's buggy, it doesn't offer much substantively over XP (which for Windows I like pretty well), et al., documented pretty well on the web at this point.  I read recently that XP is Vista's biggest competitor.  I know that certain people have had a good experience with it.  That notwithstanding, a lot of people haven't.

I get a lot of calls from "friends" who know that I know a little about computers, and these friends tell me something like "my computer isn't working, could you fix it for me?"  I've been getting a lot of these calls about Vista since it came out.  It's a P.I.T.A.  Lately I've been telling people who aren't real friends that I'm too busy and that if they need help they can call the DorkSquad™.  Others I help and then give them a copy of VL 5.8 Live and show them how to run it.

Oh, and just for the record, I am a Free Software ideologue.  Sure, companies have the legal right to distribute binaries without the source code, but I think it's immoral.  I think that people have a moral right to do what they want with their computers.  That's why the FSF was founded, that's why the GPL (and other Free Software licenses) exist, and it's one of the many reasons I use Linux. 
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
nubcnubdo
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Posts: 675


« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2007, 08:31:08 am »

Quote
Both Mac OS and Mac Intel combined command less than 7% of the market share, while Windows Vista already accounts for over 9%. Not impressed? Factor in how long Mac OS has been available, and then remember that Vista has beaten that in a year.

source
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/entdev/article.php/3716486
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2007, 10:13:44 pm »

To paraphrase:  I've seen OSes suck before, but Vista is the suckiest suck that ever sucked.

Or as the Romans would have said: "Vista suckinus suckinorum in suckula sucklorum est."

Lately I've been telling people who aren't real friends that I'm too busy and that if they need help they can call the DorkSquad™.  Others I help and then give them a copy of VL 5.8 Live and show them how to run it.

I'm an attention whore, so I would probably just do what they told me.

Oh, and just for the record, I am a Free Software ideologue.  Sure, companies have the legal right to distribute binaries without the source code, but I think it's immoral.

Immoral? I don't know, but I remember how strongly I disagreed with Jaron Lanier's recent op ed about how open source or free software (or, the unambiguous term I prefer above them both, software libre) is unoriginal. He cited examples like Google's PageRank algorithm and Adobe Flash as examples of commercial innovation, but I see several faults with that view:

  • Observational selection: most software, regardless its license is not groundbreakingly innovative, period. There is nothing wrong with the "if it ain't broke" attitude.
  • PageRank is based on elements of probability theory and the development of mathematics to this point has essentially unfolded in the spirit of software libre, even though not everything is quite the same. But if A.A. Markov demanded that you pay a royalty for using his chains and tried to hide how they work, I can guarantee further research would be impeded. One can easily see how ridiculous software patents are in that light.
  • There are also open, or rather openly developed media formats and algorithms. Ogg Vorbis in particular is often of better quality than mp3. LZMA, as you know from recent Vector releases, is an incredible compression algorithm.
  • We want to appeal to new users and present them with a familiar experience. That often means 'cloning' software.
  • But with respect to software libre copying itself, simply saying, for example, that vim is a 'clone' of vi, that nethack is a 'clone' of rogue, or that Python is a 'clone' of ABC is a stretch, at best.
  • Furthermore, some commercial software derives ideas from free software. C# 3.0 will apparently use a number of functional programming concepts from Haskell, whose Haskell-98 standard was openly developed and all of whose implementations are software libre. Windows Vista has a better command line interface, clearly based on Unix shells such as 'bash'. Even the revered Adobe Photoshop introduced scripting abilities, most likely coming from the often maligned Gimp.
You can see I had to get that off my chest. Smiley I don't know about any significant examples of innovation in the interface of software libre programs, but that's not where the magic happens anyway. Anyway, to say that free software is essentially derivative is absurd.
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tomh38
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Posts: 913



« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2007, 07:26:33 am »

Hanumizzle,

You make some excellent points.  Actually, immoral might be a little strong, but proprietary software does not exist for the best interests of what is euphemistically called the "end user."  It exists for a very small number of people to make a very large amount of money.  There's nothing wrong with making money, but morally it helps if the exchange of goods/services for money is somewhat balanced.  Since the introduction of closed-source unFree software (30 or so years ago ... ?), that balance has not usually been present.  Since the dominance of Windows in the desktop market began, things have been even less balanced.  I don't care if the guy does give a lot of money to charity, it's money he made from selling people sh*t sandwiches, when they didn't have much other choice (or didn't know that they had a choice, which comes to the same thing).

Anyway, Vista sucks.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 07:49:36 am by tomh38 » Logged

"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
Freston
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« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2007, 07:46:19 am »

My dad is hospitalized after a nasty accident. To keep him from starving from boredom I bought him this:

HP notebook
AMD64 (1.83 Ghz dual core)
2 GB RAM
Windows Vista Home Premium

From power on to first (light weight) application running: 4 minutes 20 seconds
From power on to disk indicator light off: >6 minutes
CPU usage on idle: fluctuating heavily from 1~25%
RAM usage after boot: 27%

Ratio of warning messages while starting third party applications: 1:1
Text of warning messages: You are running this application as user with limited rights. This application needs you to run with administrator rights. Do you want to cancel? Yes/No
=> So you have to say 'No' to start the application. And please, what safety measure is it if the system encourages you to run applications as administrator??

=====

Compared to my machine:

Packard Hell EasyNote
1.5 Ghz Celeron
512MB RAM
Vector Linux 5.8 SOHO

From power on to first application running: 1 minutes 35 seconds
From power on to disk indicator light off: 1 minute 35 seconds
CPU usage on idle: 3~7% (Depending on Amarok)
RAM usage after boot: 90%
Note: My lappy starts in full productivity modus. OOo, Konsole, FF, KCalc, Amarok, SuperKaramba and Kontact are all loaded and ready to go.
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GrannyGeek
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2007, 02:03:10 pm »

My dad is hospitalized after a nasty accident. To keep him from starving from boredom I bought him this:

HP notebook
AMD64 (1.83 Ghz dual core)
2 GB RAM
Windows Vista Home Premium

From power on to first (light weight) application running: 4 minutes 20 seconds
From power on to disk indicator light off: >6 minutes
CPU usage on idle: fluctuating heavily from 1~25%
RAM usage after boot: 27%

Sorry about your dad's accident. I hope he has a speedy and complete recovery.

Those startup times are quite long and don't match my experience. Vista on my laptop is ready to go in about two minutes, which is still too long but sure beats 4-1/2 minutes. There is probably a load of unnecessary programs running at startup, or it's looking for a networked computer or drive or printer that isn't there. Do Start menu, type msconfig in the search box at the bottom, and check the Startup tab. Everything in there can be unchecked without killing Vista, though you'll doubtless want some of it. But chances are extremely high that there'll be useless stuff like media players, Quicktime, HP-specific utilities "to make things easier," and other things that don't need to be there. Another thing that delays startup is heavy antivirus software such as Norton. Replace it with something lighter (AVG Free is supposed to be easier on resources and less intrusive on the system). If he's behind a router he doesn't need a software firewall. He doesn't need three antispyware applications running.

One thing responsible for a lot of disk activity is constant indexing of the hard drive in order to speed up searches. I turn it off entirely.

If your father can be trusted to get his own critical updates, he should choose manual Windows updates rather than automatic. If he can't go completely manual, at least have updates set to notify you they're available and you can get them on your terms.

There are several services that don't need to run and take up memory. You have to be cautious with disabling services and processes. Look at http://www.blackviper.com/WinVista/servicecfg.htm for help with what services you need and how to disable those you don't want.

Windows will always use as much memory as it can. This is actually a good thing because why have memory sitting idle doing nothing? It's similar to Linux, where we have buffers and cache in memory so things can happen faster.

For better performance, turn off the eye candy such as transparency, Flip 3D, live Taskbar thumbnails, and any gadgets in the Sidebar you can live without. I have the Sidebar turned off entirely.

Quote
Ratio of warning messages while starting third party applications: 1:1
Text of warning messages: You are running this application as user with limited rights. This application needs you to run with administrator rights. Do you want to cancel? Yes/No
=> So you have to say 'No' to start the application. And please, what safety measure is it if the system encourages you to run applications as administrator??

This is for the sake of backward compatibility. Programs written for Win 9x or Win 3.1 or DOS don't conform to the NT series distinctions between administrator and user. So you couldn't run your oldies at all if there weren't a way to say "run as administrator." At least the user gets some notice that a program is doing something.
--GrannyGeek
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2007, 09:37:28 pm »

I don't care if the guy does give a lot of money to charity, it's money he made from selling people sh*t sandwiches, when they didn't have much other choice

Even as a secular near-pagan generic monotheist who listens to black metal, I should point out that Bill Gates' charity is very, very self-aggrandizing, the kind that the gospel of St. Matthew looks down on. He likes it when people write puff pieces about him which, I guess, is OK, but then he wrote puff pieces about himself too.

Windows will always use as much memory as it can. This is actually a good thing because why have memory sitting idle doing nothing?

Because most users, regardless their niche or level of experience, want to run applications with that memory, rather than some operating system. The best kernel / low-level user-space suite is the one that tries to stay out of the way.
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Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
GrannyGeek
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2007, 10:39:29 pm »

Because most users, regardless their niche or level of experience, want to run applications with that memory, rather than some operating system. The best kernel / low-level user-space suite is the one that tries to stay out of the way.

The memory IS used for applications. The things kept in memory are those that are likely to be needed by an application or the OS. If all physical memory is used and an app needs memory, things are released from RAM or paged.

I have two gigs on my Vista computer. I've never run out of physical memory.

I don't have technical knowledge of the inner workings of any operating system. I'm just repeating what I've read and been told by those who do have this knowledge.
--GrannyGeek
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