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Author Topic: vista sucks  (Read 11911 times)
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2007, 10:47:42 pm »

I don't have technical knowledge of the inner workings of any operating system. I'm just repeating what I've read and been told by those who do have this knowledge.
--GrannyGeek

You're absolutely right, but I'm sure you'll agree that a Linux system running, say, Xfce4, has much less bloat than Vista even with all the unnecessary junk turned off.
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nubcnubdo
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« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2007, 02:14:40 pm »

Headline: Vista and Leopard both make it onto PC World's "Biggest Tech Disappointments of 2007"

The reason why Vista disappoints, according to one reader:
Quote
The reason - Multiple Processors

I can not speak of Leopard but Vista is a problem where the "Why and How" is well known.

This time last year it was clear that the Vista team had built its operating system assuming that clock speed on future processors would be faster. This was in spite of Intel and AMD begging Microsoft to use free tools that would make the operating system product really thread and take advantage of dual, quad, and more processors that are clocked slower than PCs built in early 2007.

So today we have a situation where Vista runs slower than operating system products which can take advantage of multi-processors - like Linux - and operating systems which were coded in an age of slower single processing machines - like XP.

I really enjoy this article because it can be followed up by a neat history lesson. It was not so long ago when Intel and Microsoft were collaborators - a duopoly - and the US antitrust cases Microsoft has dealt with could have been filed against Intel just as easy as they were filed against Microsoft.

But Microsoft took the heat and Intel behaved as it was expected to by US antitrust law - it began retraining its employees and behaving like a competitor rather than a duopolist and hence avoided the heat. So closer to now...

In 2007 Intel allowed Apple to use its dual processors in a product offering just as a company not operating as a collaborator with Microsoft should do and by Mid 2008 every decision maker involving Itanium, a last collaboration involving Microsoft, was removed from the company as were its collaborating wrong doers at the respective partner companies (HP was also involved). This action was the doing of ZDnet/Cnet who by fine reporting forced the US congress to obtain testimony involving secret dealings between the three companies.

If Itanium had gone forward, the Vista team's assumption that clock speed on future processors would be faster would have held true. So this "assumption" was really based on anti-competitive behavior and the belief that Intel could still operate as a collaborator and an exclusive collaborator with Microsoft.

Vista's disappointment involves Alchin, the now gone head of the project, who was also the man who doctored video tape evidence in the second US antitrust case but somehow avoided jail time. The testimony involved removing the browser from the operating sytstem product which Microsoft officers did not want to do because the competing browsers and Java enablers threatened the business model.

Vista will be salvaged. It is not impossible to rework the operating system product so it takes advantage of multiple processors. The question we should ponder is how silent was the Vista team? Was that kind of team what the US and the world needs to come up with outstanding and life bettering products? Or is that team - which likely was highly oriented not to discuss anything that might alarm Alchin and Microsoft top management - poorly constructed and full of yes-master culture of silence communicators.

Frank L. Mighetto CCP
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 12:37:34 am by nubcnubdo » Logged
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2007, 04:01:14 pm »

Quote
The reason - Multiple Processors

...

Vista's disappointment involves Alchin, the now gone head of the project, who was also the man who doctored video tape evidence in the second US antitrust case but somehow avoided jail time.

With a name like 'Microsoft', I wouldn't put any of their execs in an American prison either, for pity's sake.
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nubcnubdo
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« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2007, 12:33:27 am »

concurrency (parallel programming)

The Free Lunch Is Over:
A Fundamental Turn Toward Concurrency in Software, by Herb Sutter*
(March 2005)
http://gotw.ca/publications/concurrency-ddj.htm

*Herb Sutter now a chief (software) architect for M$.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Faster Chips Are Leaving Programmers in Their Dust (Dec 17, 2007)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/technology/17chip.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 12:36:20 am by nubcnubdo » Logged
Freston
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« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2007, 03:25:30 am »

GrannyGeek Thanks for explaining those issues with Vista, I appreciate it. My dad has no connection atm, and no connection to look forward to in months to come. He'll survive, but he crushed his knee real real bad and he'll be institutionalized for a couple of more months.
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BlueMage
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« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2007, 04:19:42 am »

Faster Chips Are Leaving Programmers in Their Dust (Dec 17, 2007)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/17/technology/17chip.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Quote from: Article
Engineers and computer scientists acknowledge that despite advances in recent decades, the computer industry is still lagging in its ability to write parallel programs.

This is just silly.  I did engineering, with a substantial focus on software design and implementation (not as great a focus as on the mechanical and electrical/electronic but substantial enough that over a four year course, I did at least two computer subjects per year) and at least two of those subjects focussed on multi-threaded programs and parallel execution.  Granted, we worked on single-core devices, but the leap from multi-threaded single-core to multi-threaded multi-core seems (to me at least) to be nothing more than removing the software-based job scheduler and using a hardware implementation on-die that assigns threads to cores.

Naturally, I'm probably oversimplifying, but surely it shouldn't be much more than I've described :/

(I still love Vista - UT3 has hardened the cement of my love that is Crysis)
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rbistolfi
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« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2007, 05:30:57 am »

BlueMage:

Obviously I don't know if the article is correct, but I think the argument is that actual programming tasks can't be split to satisfy the speed of future CPUs with 12 or more cores.  No matter if software or hardware based scheduler is in charge. Basically, you will have cores idling because the program has not logically independent tasks (that is, tasks that can run in parallel) to provide.
Surely, IT analyst likes to say that everybody is making a mistake, and the actual paradigms will be obsolete in two weeks just to look smarter than the rest. That said, I am pretty sure MS, or one of the speedy-junkies-programmers will find the way.
That is if MS can distract their 10000 devs of their real job: to write security patches Grin

PS: I realize engineers, philosophers, scientists of any kind, rock singers, and gamblers have a tendency to build inductive conclusions from just a few cases.
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BlueMage
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« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2007, 05:42:55 am »

well yeah, I'm generally assuming one thread per core in most cases :/  I don't expect to split threads, unless they were already amalgamated for whatever reason.

Also, we engineers are allowed to use inductive reasoning - we're usually a bit under the weather.  The rest are all just poseurs  Angry
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rbistolfi
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« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2007, 05:56:22 am »

Quote
Also, we engineers are allowed to use inductive reasoning - we're usually a bit under the weather.  The rest are all just poseurs

LOL, Indeed, on that list, I only trust in engineers and gamblers.

<free-thinking-edit>
Quote
Also, we engineers are allowed to use inductive reasoning (...) The rest are all just poseurs

Actually,  inductive reasoning is involved in the building process for axiomatic systems, without them engineers (and anything using math) are nothing.
</free-thinking-edit>
« Last Edit: December 18, 2007, 07:50:50 am by rbistolfi » Logged

"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."
Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise.

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tomh38
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« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2007, 06:03:48 am »

Quote
Alchin ... who was also the man who doctored video tape evidence in the second US antitrust case but somehow avoided jail time.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... hiccup ... hiccup ... *snort* he he he he he hmmm.

These guys never go to jail, and if they did it would be the kind with the golf course and the clam bakes, not the kind where you end up married to the guy with the most cigarettes.
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2007, 08:14:08 am »

Quote
Alchin ... who was also the man who doctored video tape evidence in the second US antitrust case but somehow avoided jail time.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... hiccup ... hiccup ... *snort* he he he he he hmmm.

These guys never go to jail, and if they did it would be the kind with the golf course and the clam bakes, not the kind where you end up married to the guy with the most cigarettes.

Justice is blind, but damned if she can't hear coins jingling in a rich man's pockets
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BlueMage
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« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2007, 02:35:49 pm »

Quote
Alchin ... who was also the man who doctored video tape evidence in the second US antitrust case but somehow avoided jail time.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... hiccup ... hiccup ... *snort* he he he he he hmmm.

These guys never go to jail, and if they did it would be the kind with the golf course and the clam bakes, not the kind where you end up married to the guy with the most cigarettes.

Justice is blind, but damned if she can't hear coins jingling in a rich man's pockets

Of course she can - blind folk usually have far more acute hearing Smiley
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Lyn
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« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2007, 02:52:05 pm »

Interesting article on the BBC that sums up most of my concerns about Vista:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6319845.stm
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tomh38
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« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2007, 04:04:36 pm »

From the BBC article:

Quote
In the name of shielding consumers from computer viruses and protecting copyright owners from potential infringement, Vista seemingly wrestles control of the "user experience" from the user.

In my mind, this is the logical end result of non-Free (as in freedom) software.  Whose computer is it?  Is it yours, or does it belong to or is it under the control of some company?  If you read most end user license agreements, your rights vis-a-vis the software and therefore your computer are just about zilch.  Since the monetary stakes are so high now in terms of multimedia (music, television, film), proprietary software makers want as much control over your computer as possible.  If you use Windows Vista, they already have quite a bit.  This isn't really about Microsoft per se, but the Windows Genuine Advantage is the genuine advantage the Microsoft has over you, the computer owner and user.

I know that I've been called a nutjob and conspiracy theorist, but we're not talking about alien abductions, Big Foot, or the Illuminati here folks.  This is all a matter of public record and has been reported on extensively in respectable news media.
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2007, 04:17:05 pm »

I know that I've been called a nutjob and conspiracy theorist, but we're not talking about alien abductions, Big Foot, or the Illuminati here folks.  This is all a matter of public record and has been reported on extensively in respectable news media.

Microsoft even owned up to their own predatory behavior (cf. Halloween Documents). The situation would only be comparable to so-called 'alien abductions' if a common sleep abnormality convinced the user that Microsoft had taken their computer over and made it completely slow and unusable.

Not that I'm saying that ever happened to me.

(Remember to sleep on your sides, kiddies...)
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Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
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