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Author Topic: Crazy idea / suggestion  (Read 12782 times)
newt
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« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2008, 02:27:11 pm »

I think we have decided that after 5.9 SOHO as you know it will not be made anymore, instead it will be merged with the deluxe version.
So if we have someone (or a group) that would step up and help us manage things we would be able to produce a VL-LITE along with the
Standard and SOHO-Deluxe versions we have planned.
That IS a shocking statement with numerous pros and cons; and I really had no idea this would be the case.  HOWEVER, I'm not totally opposed to it either.  SOHO-deluxe should require payment.  I think influencing increased revenue for VL is good and fine; it's something VL deserves (that's how good VL is).  On the flip side, many people see such a move as a "greedy/selfish/insert_negative_adjective_here" move that will DEFINITELY push some folks away - regardless of the optional avenues provided.  Perhaps providing folks a way to make "payment" via a non-monetary form to obtain strict-SOHO could sooth the sting: have folks build packages for payment, have folks develop for payment, have folks be artistically creative for payment, have folks be port-ivily creative for payment, have folks be technically-supportive for payment, have folks be wiki-ily creative for payment, have folks be blog-ivily supportive for payment, have folks do _something_ to obtain direct ISO access for the SOHO version.  As a fall back for those that simply cannot or will not offer any help and won't pay (and because providing free things for all is a good feeling) provide a downloadable script that runs on an already-installed Standard version that will download-and-install necessary packages to increase functionality to SOHO version.  I would certainly do _something_ to taste the ISO release of SOHO - I don't know what but it would be something useful.  Notice the distinction between SOHO-deluxe and SOHO; SOHO-deluxe should always require payment.  This is all just out-loud thinking and, yes, I know it's flawed in various ways. Grin
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 02:29:29 pm by newtor » Logged
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2008, 02:29:18 pm »

I simply miss the days when only Standard, SOHO and Dynamite were present. Can't public release of a 64-bit distro wait until 64-bit CPUs become the majority?
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nubcnubdo
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Posts: 675


« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2008, 02:50:39 pm »

nubcnubdo<====distro-hopper

Um, I'm here, been stopped on VL for a year now. I still have my 5.1 liveCD which I admired greatly when I first tried it a couple years ago. Two or three years ago I was doing Mandrake/Mandriva, hopping to Suse, Fedora, or Gentoo. My very first distro was Austrumi, as a recovery tool (dialup download).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 03:08:57 pm by nubcnubdo » Logged
M0E-lnx
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« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2008, 02:59:50 pm »

I really dont think dropping SOHO would be that bad anyway. You can SOHO-nize an STD install very easily.
I just thought I'd throw this idea out there to remind everyone that VL was once aimed at low-end machines and to point out that we might be heading the other way on the new releases. While upgrades and new software is most of the time good, it is simply hard to maintain the same goal and at the same time stay up-to-date with current demands and competition.
Which is why I suggested an ultra-lite version. A "barebones" if you will. That way, VL would still target old machinery while at the same time be able to step up to the competition.
I really do feel that there is room for an ultra-lite VL. Checking out the suggestions some people made on this thread, I've tried a couple of them, and I have to say that I dont feel confortable with any of them.

I think if we can come up with a set of packages ranging between what DSL offers and what Wolvix offers, we should get a nice release.

I myself am willing to contribute as much as possible (in my limited time that is) if we are to develop this

BTW, I like newtor's way of thinking about the SOHO and Deluxe thing.
I think that would encourage people to contribute and also give the current contributors an incentive to keep doing what they do
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Sty
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« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2008, 03:02:29 pm »

I know it has been a while since I've been posting here, but if I may I would like to throw my two cents in.

I would dare to venture that Vector approaches the Live CD front backwards.  If we are serious about doing a Live CD, why not develop to that as the standard?  i.e. Instead of developing Vector Standard, then porting to LIVE, why not develop Vector Standard as LIVE from the get-go?

The Pros as I see it would be:
  • Everyone is using the same version of Standard, SOHO, Deluxe, etc.
  • People are able to test the new versions without needing to repartion or otherwise endanger their main machine.
  • Unifies the base, resulting in a decrease in the workload of both developers and testers.
  • Removes the "huh?" factor when someone installs with the LIVE version.

I suppose that possible cons would be:
  • Not enough people know how to work in a LIVE environment.
  • When is a distro actually "done"?

However, it seems that this is the best way to condense the workload for everyone.

Also, about the discontinuation of SOHO:

Initially I was against this, but upon further thinking, it does make sense.  Do we really need more than a "Base" version of Vector?  As long as packaging is still done for KDE, OOo, etc., we aren't losing anything.  In this way it should simplify development quite a bit.

This would allow for mainly two releases, Standard 32-bit and 64-bit.  From there you have the building blocks, everything you need to run a computer, and if you find you want something more, hit the repo and you're good to go.

To some who say this would be a penalty against Vector, have you EVER had an opporating system that you were 100% satisfied with from install?  Not even with Windows, the largest operating system base, do people merely install Windows and call it a day.  I, myself, add browsers, office suites, protection-services, email programs, media players, etc., before I begin to consider Windows "useable".  Again, so long as packages are available to add, Vector is in good shape.
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2008, 03:38:20 pm »

nubcnubdo<====distro-hopper

Um, I'm here, been stopped on VL for a year now. I still have my 5.1 liveCD which I admired greatly when I first tried it a couple years ago. Two or three years ago I was doing Mandrake/Mandriva, hopping to Suse, Fedora, or Gentoo. My very first distro was Austrumi, as a recovery tool (dialup download).

The majority of 'distro-hoppers', as I'm sure you'll agree, are not likely to stay with a given distro for very long. Then they are a relatively small niche.
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nubcnubdo
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« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2008, 03:53:26 pm »

Sheesh, how do you know these promiscuous distro-hoppers? When I make a self-reference to "distro-hopper," I do not use the term as a pejorative. More like, perpetually curious; addicted. Is there a pink elephant in the living room? I thought most Linux enthusiasts were distro-hoppers, to some degree.
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2008, 03:59:15 pm »

Sheesh, how do you know these promiscuous distro-hoppers? When I make a self-reference to "distro-hopper," I do not use the term as a pejorative. More like, perpetually curious; addicted. Is there a pink elephant in the living room? I thought most Linux enthusiasts were distro-hoppers, to some degree.

Nor do I. I was a dist-hopper at one time as well. In fact, I don't really know what was negative about my usage of the term. I can certainly identify with 'perpetually curious' and 'addicted' because those are some of the feelings that keep me alive. Currently, my perpetual curiosity is drawn to graph theory and, as always, Norse mythology. However, there is really no way of knowing how many people who use or evaluate some distro want or need a live CD.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 04:03:55 pm by hanumizzle » Logged

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rbistolfi
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« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2008, 04:07:28 pm »

I have to say I dont hate the idea of dropping SOHO. But you have to admit it is a risky move. Until now, 5.9 is working great, and if anyone ask for kde it is in the repo. I got it with slapt-get, and it works, despiting some problems with specific packages. But I have seen more newcomers after a SOHO release.
About VL Lite, looks like it is easy enough, and the arguments lately exposed by Moe are strong.
DW ranking and users choices are a mystery. Nothing will ensure success or failure.

We have to make the most people possible to give VL a try. Distro-hoppers or not. If after giving a try we lose them, there is nothing we can do about it. I know people likes Live-CD's. I don't. I think is not a valid way to try an os because a installed version can be really different for good or bad. That said, there is a lot of people who likes live-cds, imo, and looks like the vl scripts are working good.
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2008, 04:13:00 pm »

DW ranking and users choices are a mystery. Nothing will ensure success or failure.

Exactly. I think we're superior to caring about stuff like DW rankings. I never even look on that site tbh.
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easuter
Global Moderator
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Posts: 2160



« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2008, 04:15:12 pm »

Quote from: hanumizzle
Can't public release of a 64-bit distro wait until 64-bit CPUs become the majority?

Hehe, I wish some home users would realize they don't need 64bit number-crunching machines to watch videos on Youtube or check their emails....anyway
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saulgoode
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Posts: 340



« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2008, 04:42:58 pm »

Going back a couple of pages...

We think that this is a good idea.

To move foreward with this we will need to have a package list to start from.
The list of packages on the ISO for 5.9 is here: http://numsum.com/spreadsheet/show/57314
Saulgoode, if you (or anyone else) want to make an account at numsum.com I will make a new copy of this spreadsheet and you can start marking out packages to form a new smaller list.
Once this is done we can move on from there.

Great. I have perused the spreadsheet and done some preliminary investigation. I have also registered but the server which hosts my email crashed a few days ago; it is back online but my disk quotas are screwed up right now (unless I received over 2 gigabytes of Viagra and Megadik spam in the last five days). If my e-mail isn't back up in the next day or so, I will "borrow" a friend's and re-register.

If there is a developer's repo for VL 6.0, I should like to have access (read-only is fine). Or should I just pull packages I can from the 5.9 repos and grab the rest from the projects' homepages? My initial goal would be to create an extremely barebones bootable system: no X, no user apps; just the basic Vector tool chain and the libraries to support them. I have a fairly strong background with Slackware and I used to have a good grasp of VL-INIT and Kocil's original VASM (circa 2.3), but I haven't really kept up with the newer facilities such as VL-HOT, the new installer, or the updated VASM.



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uelsk8s
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« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2008, 05:04:47 pm »

If there is a developer's repo for VL 6.0, I should like to have access (read-only is fine). Or should I just pull packages I can from the 5.9 repos and grab the rest from the projects' homepages? My initial goal would be to create an extremely barebones bootable system: no X, no user apps; just the basic Vector tool chain and the libraries to support them. I have a fairly strong background with Slackware and I used to have a good grasp of VL-INIT and Kocil's original VASM (circa 2.3), but I haven't really kept up with the newer facilities such as VL-HOT, the new installer, or the updated VASM.
There is no developers repo, all the pacakges are in the 5.9 repo.
keep in mind if you need to build something thats not already in the 5.9 repo we need source and buildscript with it.
I would reccomend using the 5.9 gold ISO to install just the base required packages and start from that.
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gacl
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Posts: 218



« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2008, 05:17:30 pm »

Well, the live CD has its uses. Like when i make copies for friends to show them that Linux is not just a command line. . . and show them Beryl. Also, when i break my system i need a way to recover, and i'm already familiar with Vector, in case i need to modify configuration files and the like ( . . . maybe we could have more recovery/repair tools in the live CD? ).

I was complaining about Xfce in another post, but really, is not that bad. I hadn't realized that there were other choices at the login screen ( . . . maybe they should be more visible? not as a pull down menu? ).

Gus
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2008, 05:23:40 pm »

Quote from: hanumizzle
Can't public release of a 64-bit distro wait until 64-bit CPUs become the majority?

Hehe, I wish some home users would realize they don't need 64bit number-crunching machines to watch videos on Youtube or check their emails....anyway

I imagine that 64-bit machines will eventually become the norm, as programmers figure out more lavish and occasionally useful ways to spend cycles / memory. Remember that technology experts used to say 32-bit processors and addressing space were way too much. Well, with Windows Vi$ta apparently eating up something like 512 MB RAM when it sits there idle, and plenty of incredibly bloated, frivolous programs on all operating systems (Linux shares plenty of blame there), 4 GB max RAM is beginning to seem a little tight. Personally, I wonder why the intermediate measure of 32-bit processors with 64-bit addressing spaces wasn't introduced as it was in an earlier era, with 16-bit processors and 32-bit memory addressing. That would have helped a lot.

In the meantime, though, launching a 64-bit version is a bit like trying to ensure complete IPv6 compliance. JMO.

saulgoode, my new version of VASM was an epic fail.
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