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Author Topic: VL 64bit question  (Read 3151 times)
keratos
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Posts: 14


« on: March 13, 2008, 04:07:10 am »

found:
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4444.0

I can only find the above from a search relating to a question I have.

What is the status of VL64bit and what is the position in terms of 32bit apps prtde to 64bit?
If i install VL64, would I get 64 bit apps?
Can I run 32bit in 64bit VL where certain apps have yet to be ported?

I'm a n00b to VL so please be gentle.

Thanks in advance.
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bigpaws
Vectorian
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Posts: 1835


« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2008, 06:24:01 am »

Quote
What is the status of VL64bit and what is the position in terms of 32bit apps prtde to 64bit?
If i install VL64, would I get 64 bit apps?
Can I run 32bit in 64bit VL where certain apps have yet to be ported?

VL 64 bit is in Flux. There is still no such thing as true 64bit apps
at this time. It does not appear to be a big concern to have the apps
ported any time soon.

Running 32bit on 64 bit is no problem. My 64 bit machines run fine.

Bigpaws

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caitlyn
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 08:52:58 am »

Sure, a 32-but OS will run just fine but the performance will never match a 64-bit OS and apps compiled for 64-bit architecture if you have a lot of memory (>4 GB) or if you do anything that requires a whole lot of CPU cycles (serious number crunching, 3D animation, any serious multimedia work).  Those of us who have A/B tested the same distro at 32-bit and 64-bit know this can be demonstrated fairly easily.

Next, the statement that true 64-bit native apps don't exist is plainly false.  Would you like a list?  There may be none compiled for VL but that doesn't mean they don't exist.  Also, so far as I know everything for VL 64 is 64-bit, as in it was compiled in a 64-bit environment for x86_64 architecture.  That does make a difference.

Final point:  if the VL team is serious about pulling away from their commitment to develop a 64-bit version they are going to lose a lot of long time users, including me.  64-bit technology is here to stay.  32-bit is low-end only nowadays.
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VLocity Linux 7.0-rc1

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video
VL 7.0 Light
uelsk8s
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Posts: 2503



« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2008, 09:22:14 am »

Hello,

The VL dev team has not even hinted to pulling away from developing VL-64.
We are busy working on populating the 64bit repo's now. Take a look at the 64bit testing repo and you will see evidence of this.
We are also working on moving to B2, are biggest holdback from being there already is the variance we are seeing from install to install from the same install media. As soon as we figure out why B1 works so well on one install and poorly on another (both from the same CD) we will be ready for B2 and the RC will follow that.


Thanks,
Uelsk8s
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keratos
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Posts: 14


« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2008, 11:14:21 am »

thanks for the replys guys.

Just to clarify, I was not insinuating anyone pulling away.

I just installed an ISO from softpedia (VL site was down at the time) and I wasnt sure what architecture it was. Turns out, I am given to understand from other posts, that it is i586.

I was considering downloading x64 B but was a little concerned about perceived lack of apps or the ability of x32 to run in x64 B

I have to say I do find the default gslapt repos a little waining in the lack of apps I used to find abundant in ubuntu.

gslapt package updates (ftp/http) are painfully slow. In ubuntu I was getting 800Kb/s download/updates but in VL, a mere 50K/bs? Im in the UK and not sure if I need to point to faster mirrors and how to do this?

For example, I cannot find gparted, deluge and some NLE video apps.

Maybe I need to "do something" to the gslapt repos settings/sources - but I dont know how to do this?

Ubuntu was easy - it "just worked".

But I am finding it difficult in locating the apps I "traditionally" took for granted in ubuntu.

I think if you can help me here I may well stick with VL rather than sticking with ubuntu.

Certainly if VL can accomplish the "out of the box" experience I had with ubuntu, myself and no doubt 000s of others will move to VL as a homebase O/S on all our machines.

VL stability and speed cannot be questioned in my view, however the ease and simplicity model of ubuntu could well be a development goal with the VL team perhaps???

any ideas on how I can set my VL to go and find gparted and alike.

thanks
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 11:16:10 am by keratos » Logged
bigpaws
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Posts: 1835


« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 01:52:59 pm »

Quote
Next, the statement that true 64-bit native apps don't exist is plainly false.  Would you like a list?

This has been discussed before.

Then you can list win32 have been ported? Why is the nspluginwrapper in existence.

Please list a distribution that is 100% 64 bit, including codecs.

Bigpaws
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caitlyn
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 02:59:39 pm »

Wait a minute... You said 64-bit apps don't exist.  That implies there are none. 

There are a number of distros that a pure OpenSource and decline to include Win32 codecs so I'm sure if I did enough research I could find you a "pure" distro.  That is entirely besides the point.  There are plenty of 64 bit apps and there is nothing at all wrong with running 64-bit when possible and 32-bit when it's not possible.
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caitlyn
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 03:21:57 pm »

The VL dev team has not even hinted to pulling away from developing VL-64.
We are busy working on populating the 64bit repo's now. Take a look at the 64bit testing repo and you will see evidence of this.
We are also working on moving to B2, are biggest holdback from being there already is the variance we are seeing from install to install from the same install media. As soon as we figure out why B1 works so well on one install and poorly on another (both from the same CD) we will be ready for B2 and the RC will follow that.


Thanks,
Uelsk8s

THANK YOU!  Bigpaws statement that VL64 was "in flux" and that "It does not appear to be a big concern to have the apps ported any time soon." made it sound like he knew you guys were backing away from VL64.  I am thrilled to hear it isn't true.
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bigpaws
Vectorian
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Posts: 1835


« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 03:57:27 pm »

My comment about in flux was to mean that development
appears to have slowed some. There was never an intention to mean
that the project was dead.

My point about no true 64 bit apps may have been poorly written. My
intent was that since not everything was ported to 64 bit then the ability
to have a complete 64 bit system is difficult.

Since 64 bit has been out the speed at porting has been slow. That does
not mean it will not happen.

The mention "It does not appear to be a big concern to have the apps ported any time soon"
was not a reflection upon Vector but Distributions in general.

Alot of my responses here were taken out of context. Excuse the lack of clarity.

Bigpaws
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 04:04:18 pm by bigpaws » Logged
keratos
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Posts: 14


« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 05:41:39 pm »

guys , when you have a moment between your flameouts

can someone please read my post above and offer assistance.

this is a sure way to convince me to go back to ubuntu.

I like the speed, but the support is questionable.

so far.

HELP.

any sane person please.
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caitlyn
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 09:26:20 pm »

@keratos:

Funny... I don't see any flames.  Yes, I misunderstood Bigpaws comments but I certainly didn't attack him nor did he attack me.  I don't see any angry posts at all.

On to your questions:

1>  We currently have a HUGE backlog of packages in the testing repository.  You may be able to find a lot of what you are looking for there.  In addition if you are looking for multimedia apps there are a ton of those on the Multimedia Bonus Disk.  If you do enable testing to be able to use gslapt or slapt-get (recommended to allow for dependency resolution) just be sure you disable it again before doing any upgrades.  Testing does live up to it's name and replacing core packages from there can and will cause breakage at times. 

Having said that I should point out that we don't have nearly the package selection of Ubuntu and we probably never will unless we get a lot more people who volunteer to build packages and/or test packages.

I should also point out that VL is Slackware compatible, which means you can install Slackware packages as well as most anything for Slackware 12 currently on Linuxpackages.net or Slacky.eu.  These repositories can be enabled as well but only do so with extreme caution.  Enabling external sources often means little or no dependency checking and can result in "dependency hell".  I only take packages where I know what's required and generally install them manually rather than enabling external sources in gslapt/slapt-get.

2>  Most of the time the default OSU (Oregon State University) repository has worked well for me but I have experienced the extreme slowness you descibe from time to time.  I haven't tried any of the European mirrors but I have had good results with gatech and ibiblio.org.  Changing mirrors is probably an excellent idea.  Downloads shouldn't be slower than Ubuntu mirrors.

3> Enabling/disabling/changing sources:

a.  Command line method:

As root, edit /etc/slapt-get/slapt-getrc  You'll see some repositories listed with lines that start with SOURCE=  Those are the enabled ones.  The ones that start with #DISABLED= are, well, as you'd expect.  Swap them around as you see fit.  What isn't recommended is enabling two sources for the same repository as that will cause duplicate listings in gslapt.  When you're done run:

Code:
slapt-get --update

which will enable your changes.

b.  GUI method:

In gslapt, click on the Edit menu and go to Edit->Preferences->Sources.  Unclick the boxes for the ones you want disabled and check the boxes for the ones you want.  Then click on Update to enable.  It's just that easy.

NOTE:  Make sure you have patches enabled from your chosen mirror.  That wasn't done by default in 5.9 and it's a mistake (bug?).  Patches are exactly what you'd expect: security patches and bugfixes.

4>  I'm glad Ubuntu has "just worked" for you.  My personal experience with 64-bit Gutsy Gibbon has been a bug infested nightmare.  Network Manager freezes up frequently and wireless connectivity goes away when it does.  Sound comes and goes seemingly at random.   Every once in a while the system locks up hard and the CAPS LOCK indicator flashes.  Nothing short of a hard reboot corrects that.  It's precisely that experience that makes me so hungry for a 64-bit OS as reliable as Vector Linux has been for me.


I hope i've answered some of your questions.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 09:28:14 pm by caitlyn » Logged

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bigpaws
Vectorian
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Posts: 1835


« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2008, 09:37:01 pm »

The answer is yes you will get as complete 64 bit as possible.

The VL-64 is not finished as it is in the beta stage.

Quote
Maybe I need to "do something" to the gslapt repos settings/sources - but I dont know how to do this?

Check the Howto section:
http://www.vectorlinux.com/forum2/index.php?topic=11.0


Quote
For example, I cannot find gparted, deluge and some NLE video apps.

Me either.

If the application is not in a repository you can compile the application yourself.
You could also make packages of the apps you want if they are not done and help
populate our repository. There are good howtos for this.

Quote
But I am finding it difficult in locating the apps I "traditionally" took for granted in ubuntu.

Ubuntu has multiple times more developers than Vector. Which in your terms
may mean that the application you seek has not been done. When looking at
the forum please note 2 areas VL package news and updates, then New package
requests. The New Package requests may get a package for you.

There are many differences from distribution to the next. Ubuntu is based on Gnome,
Vector is KDE based. There will be Gnome apps that will not be available for Vector.

HTH

Bigpaws
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 09:44:51 pm by bigpaws » Logged
keratos
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Posts: 14


« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2008, 04:56:56 am »

thank you for those kind responses.

I am very much a "switch on and get on with it" kind of guy. By this I mean I just want to switch the PC on, and start using apps to do my work as fast as I can (within budgetary constraints!)

I care little whether it is linux, DOS, Windows, FreeBSD or whatever. I just want those apps and - if possible - for FREE !

I am afraid I lack the required skill to create packages (OMG what a suggestion!), compile kernels, drivers et.al. I just want to switch on and use apps

My setup is
AMD64 LE-1100
512MB DDR2
2x160 DiamondMax HDD
Onboard K8M890 VGA
Asus M/B
all procured for £50 !!! not bad!


So my requirements are, in order:
1. Cost.
2. Ease of use
3. A large array of choice and applications available.
4. Speed

VL did it for me in terms of 1,2 and 4 but lacks the choice and range of apps on offer.

Xubuntu does it for 1,2,3. Speed is not as good but I wonder it this is to due with 32bit VL running on my AMD64. I'm pretty sure the xubuntu amd64 distro is gobbling up my memory (using 64 addressing modes and more memory space). So my mem is low.

Zenwalk was installed but this was woefully low on 2 and 3

Arch and Slackware were pretty much like VL as above.

Mandriva Fedora and the other RPM based distros were slow, very! PClinux2007 was the most responsive on my system but well short of the likes of Zen, Arch and VL.


I think therefore my xubuntu will remain installed.

Shame, if VL just had those apps. I guess the VL guys need to do a damm good advertising campaign , akin Canonical.
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bigpaws
Vectorian
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Posts: 1835


« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2008, 06:31:30 am »

Good Luck Keratos in your search.

Quote
I am afraid I lack the required skill to create packages (OMG what a suggestion!), compile kernels, drivers et.al. I just want to switch on and use apps

Learning to do packages is not that hard. From the last statement you are interested in already done without contribution back to the distribution in either time or money. It is this type action that keeps Linux held back. Many consumers very few developers. Your thoughts are misleading. Ubuntu pays their developers as well as Novell and Redhat. Vector does not pay developers or anyone. In fact the bills are paid by a couple individuals. Nothing is free, someone pays for it.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Bigpaws

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keratos
Member
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Posts: 14


« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2008, 07:53:22 am »

Mmm.

Your response kind of underpins the reason why VL has not the take up of the "heavy boys". This is a shame. I think you misunderstand the users perspective. Perhaps this is consequent on your strive to develop VL and you have become "lost" in the quest. Allow me to elaborate...

If I go to a PC shop and buy Windows, I can go anywhere, shops, internet, bittorrent etc and get any packages I need. Sure I buy the O/S but then linux IS an open/free foundation buy its very nature. So I take that on board and there are hundred of linux distros.

If I wanted to spend all my time tweaking, building, uploading etc. then I wouldnt have time to do what I want my PC to do.

Look, its simple to me, if you want to play with linux and build a distro, great, good luck to you. I envy your experience and available playtime. For me and thousands of others, we want to install a linux O/S and just "get on with it".

Perhaps in time users will feel comfortable to do what you ask in their precious time (I work 7am through 7pm as an Office IT manager) when I come home, I REALLY dont want to start building packages, okay.

Perhaps if you can afford humility and objectiveness, you can see my perspective.

Notwithstanding , you guys do a fantastic job. Just a shame I lack the intelligence to help you .

I'm off to add packages to my xubuntu O/S. Its dead simple :-)
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