VectorLinux
September 02, 2014, 05:47:46 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Visit our home page for VL info. To search the old message board go to http://vectorlinux.com/forum1. The first VL forum is temporarily offline until we can find a host for it. Thanks for your patience.
 
Now powered by KnowledgeDex.
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Please support VectorLinux!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
Author Topic: here's something to chew on  (Read 8994 times)
overthere
Vectorian
****
Posts: 1275



« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 06:34:53 pm »

Quote
LOL, IF there was a man named Jesus.....This is what I believe in case you want to know

Sorry.. it was not my intention to offend those inspired by dogma but to site example of one misunderstood in history who I feel had confidence in his understanding of history and science and was not afraid to apply it regardless the consequences. many examples exist in historical documentation, this is perhaps one of the more popular and could use some trimming down to fuctional value. Hypatia, said to be the last scientist to work in the library of Alexandria is possible another. True is true to what objective or less bias perspectives we may precieve it?

As you mention a whirl wind of sorts createing things...so it goes with the king james amoung other translations of ancient text..these were precieved to have similar context and put into a collection by man and were created by such. I have no willingness to prove any supernatural creation of a bound volume nor to argue any dogmatic belief in the same. However I feel that all may have the right to share there philosophical ideals in appropriate venue. I do not feel my comparison of EFG and Jesus unreasonable in this one, but will take it no further and apologize for any inappropriate forum posting
cheers
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 06:40:17 pm by overthere » Logged

Everything Is Relative
Triarius Fidelis
Vecteloper
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2399


Domine, exaudi vocem meam


WWW
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2008, 06:42:41 pm »

Yeppers, I realized my mistake...but of course the thread is locked so I couldn't change it. But yeah, if you have a bone to pick, an axe to grind, pick that ONE sentence and generalize my mistake in an attempt to downplay the entire argument. I guess that's how the lawyers do it.  Wink

There were a number of inaccuracies and I didn't have time to examine every single one. So I picked out one just for instance.

Anyway, the main thrust of your argument, as I said, was an appeal to the masses. That is considered a logical fallacy.

There are now more than 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Add to that over  10,000 Latin Vulgate and at  least 9,300 other early versions and we have more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions  of the New Testament in existence.  No other document of antiquity even begins to approach such numbers and attestation. In  comparison, the "Iliad" by  Homer is second  with only 643 manuscripts that   still survive. Other works   such as the writings   of Livy, Plato, and Herodotus have no more than 20 surviving manuscripts! (Bruce, F.F. "The Books and The Parchments", Rev. ed. Westwood: Fleming H. Revell Co., 1963.)

Well ... what does that mean? It was copied accurately, many times. There are only 643 copies of the Iliad, as you said, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a real Trojan War. Likewise, having many copies of any other book, including originals, doesn't make it right.

And of course there are so few original manuscripts by authors like Livy, Plato and Herodotus. As you may have noticed earlier, many of them were put to the torch.

LOL, yeah anyway, that's that. If you want to talk historical accuracy and consistency, don't argue with the Bible. Cheesy

There are many places where the Bible and history and/or science are in conflict.

For example, natural languages did not all come from Sumeria. They developed over time, and in different locations. In fact, they're still developing today.

Dragons, cockatrices and satyrs, all mentioned as real creatures in the Bible, do not exist. Dragons could be dinosaurs I guess, but there's never been anything like a cockatrice or satyr.

The Bible also contains passages that imply the Earth is flat, such as Mat 4:8. A mega-mountain from which you could see all the kingdoms of the Earth at that time would not only require a flat Earth, but would also require a mountain huge enough to see all the way east to China. Josh 10:12-13 says that the Sun stood still in the sky. We know that, for the Sun to appear to stand still, the Earth would have to stop revolving. The inertia of people living on its surface would suddenly trouble them greatly if that happened.

We take that the Earth is more or less round for granted today, and benefit from this fact a lot. I think saying that the Bible is 100% historically and scientifically accurate doesn't show enough respect to the men and women who faced persecution, torture and death to say otherwise.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 07:03:29 pm by Epic Fail Guy » Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
overthere
Vectorian
****
Posts: 1275



« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2008, 07:06:23 pm »

It can be interesting  to look at the possible meaning of a passage ..in S&G I think the family of good is told to leave the city and not look back or they would turn to stone...I think that means if any one had turned to look they would be mesmorized by the happening and thus appear in so many words to be turned to stone and perhaps lose what opportunity could be had for safe passage before being consumed by it. in other words...make haste
Logged

Everything Is Relative
Triarius Fidelis
Vecteloper
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2399


Domine, exaudi vocem meam


WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2008, 07:32:43 pm »

A lot of the Hebrew sense of metaphor is really interesting. It paints very vivid pictures with only a few simple words, and I think it's a great example for modern authors.

I don't reject everything in the Bible, in either its literary or ethical content. In fact, I don't want to develop a one-sided view of anything. So I definitely have a strong appreciation for some things in the Bible. But I am extremely opposed to blind faith, because death and chaos almost always follow in its trace.
Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
Dweeberkitty
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 836



WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2008, 07:36:10 pm »

Likewise, having many copies of any other book, including originals, doesn't make it right.

Very good. I'm glad you realized that. But it does make you wonder, why were the copies so carefully preserved and copied so accurately? Maybe there is something special about it that is worth checking out?


There are many places where the Bible and history and/or science are in conflict.

For example, natural languages did not all come from Sumeria. They developed over time, and in different locations. In fact, they're still developing today.

Dragons, cockatrices and satyrs, all mentioned as real creatures in the Bible, do not exist. Dragons could be dinosaurs I guess, but there's never been anything like a cockatrice or satyr.

The Bible also contains passages that imply the Earth is flat, such as Mat 4:8. A mega-mountain from which you could see all the kingdoms of the Earth at that time would not only require a flat Earth, but would also require a mountain huge enough to see all the way east to China. Josh 10:12-13 says that the Sun stood still in the sky. We know that, for the Sun to appear to stand still, the Earth would have to stop revolving. The inertia of people living on its surface would suddenly trouble them greatly if that happened.

LOL. Grin I guess I'm laughing (not at you, don't take it personally) because those are the most overused, clichéd examples of the Bible and science contradicting in existence. They are also the most addressed ones too--there are entire books dedicated to those subjects. I'm not even going to try to answer your arguments, not because I don't have the answers, but because the answers are so readily available. I could suggest some books for you to read, but I don't know if you'd actually want to read them. Let me know if you are interested.
Logged

Registered Linux User #443399
Desktop: Intel Pentium D 3.33Ghz, 320GB hard drive, 2 gigs DDR2 533mhz RAM, NVIDIA Geforce 7800 GS, X2GEN 22" widescreen monitor;
Laptop: Dell Mini 9, Intel Atom 1.6Ghz, 1GB ram
Multimedia Bonus Disc website: http://www.vectorlinuxsolutions.com/
Triarius Fidelis
Vecteloper
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2399


Domine, exaudi vocem meam


WWW
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2008, 08:05:10 pm »

Likewise, having many copies of any other book, including originals, doesn't make it right.

Very good. I'm glad you realized that. But it does make you wonder, why were the copies so carefully preserved and copied so accurately? Maybe there is something special about it that is worth checking out?

A lot of it had to do with that the people who were busy propagating it were also keen on eliminating other books. I guess you could say their attention was undivided.

In any case, the existence of many accurate copies of a book does not definitively suggest anything about it other than that it was accurately copied many times.

btw, Euclid's The Elements has almost as many editions as the Bible—it was sheltered from the Dark Ages by scholars in the Near East—but it's far from perfect. Some of its proofs are not very rigorous and of course there is non-Euclidean geometry today. It's still a good book and can even still be used as a textbook, but I wouldn't trust it unswervingly.

LOL. Grin I guess I'm laughing (not at you, don't take it personally) because those are the most overused, clichéd examples of the Bible and science contradicting in existence. They are also the most addressed ones too--there are entire books dedicated to those subjects. I'm not even going to try to answer your arguments, not because I don't have the answers, but because the answers are so readily available. I could suggest some books for you to read, but I don't know if you'd actually want to read them. Let me know if you are interested.

Well, we live in Western society and the onus is on you to show evidence for your claims.

I could have easily referred you to an undergraduate physics or biology text for rebuttals to things you've said before, but I took time to explain them instead. I'm kind of disappointed. I would like to know the titles of these books anyway. I've learned not to expect much from creationist books, seminars, websites, etc. because they tend to be dishonest and, in general, don't hold up to Occam's razor. The arguments are usually convoluted and require too many assumptions. I've seen a lot of them already, but I'm willing to look at something that is genuinely new.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 09:27:00 pm by Epic Fail Guy » Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
overthere
Vectorian
****
Posts: 1275



« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2008, 08:16:17 pm »

In modern times there are all to often stems of deceit supporting the flowers of hope. I suspect in the next few years psycological prowess will be of greater value to the masses, mathmatics plays an intrinsic role.
Logged

Everything Is Relative
Triarius Fidelis
Vecteloper
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2399


Domine, exaudi vocem meam


WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 08:25:56 pm »

Evidence of this change can already be seen. Especially since the 90's, bookish people are starting to be respected a lot more in our neck of the woods. Creationism/ID has been expunged from several public school curricula. People are apparently realizing that books aren't (only) for dorks and that we don't stand much of a chance to compete with our Eastern neighbors if we don't put the same value on empiricism as they do.
Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
tomh38
Vectorian
****
Posts: 913



« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2008, 10:49:14 am »

Hi everybody ... as you know I'm not a mod or an admin, just another user (I don't even code).  I would prefer that this not become a religious discussion, as that could develop into a religious flamewar (not necessarily, but still possible).  I'm not against such discussions, but the last time that happened in a VL Lounge thread, the thread got locked.  I know things aren't hostile right now, but with this sort of topic they can easily become so.

This is only a personal request, since I would like the thread to remain open.

Tom
Logged

"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
overthere
Vectorian
****
Posts: 1275



« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2008, 12:09:20 pm »

lol..well you are likely correct in assumtion...I take responsibility for mentioning the J word..I thought the lounge may offer some opportunity for posting as I seem to have an affection for vector but mayby I will stick to reading..there is still lots of great stuff I have not grasp in the threads above..and btw I am happy to see they have survived.....later
cheers
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 12:16:00 pm by overthere » Logged

Everything Is Relative
Triarius Fidelis
Vecteloper
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2399


Domine, exaudi vocem meam


WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2008, 02:41:26 pm »

Hi everybody ... as you know I'm not a mod or an admin, just another user (I don't even code).  I would prefer that this not become a religious discussion, as that could develop into a religious flamewar (not necessarily, but still possible).  I'm not against such discussions, but the last time that happened in a VL Lounge thread, the thread got locked.  I know things aren't hostile right now, but with this sort of topic they can easily become so.

A lock would be unnecessary. In fact, there have been harsher threads here that were not locked.
Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
tomh38
Vectorian
****
Posts: 913



« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2008, 06:00:11 am »

A lock would be unnecessary. In fact, there have been harsher threads here that were not locked.

EPIC:  I agree with you, a lock is unnecessary, and there have been harsher threads that have not been locked.  Also, I'm not trying to keep this thread completely away from religious topics, and I certainly didn't want overthere or anyone else to leave the thread.  I just wanted to keep this thread from developing into a religious flamewar, since the last time we had that the thread did get locked, which ended the discussion.

overthere
, I apologize if I came across too strong, or for anything I wrote which may have led you to think that what I was saying was aimed at you.  It wasn't.  I was only offering my opinion as another member of the VL community, based on past experience.  Since this is the Lounge, things are pretty open in the threads.

So, for what it's worth, I have no desire to keep anybody from discussing any topic.
Logged

"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
Triarius Fidelis
Vecteloper
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2399


Domine, exaudi vocem meam


WWW
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2008, 06:39:50 am »

EPIC:  I agree with you, a lock is unnecessary, and there have been harsher threads that have not been locked.  Also, I'm not trying to keep this thread completely away from religious topics, and I certainly didn't want overthere or anyone else to leave the thread.  I just wanted to keep this thread from developing into a religious flamewar, since the last time we had that the thread did get locked, which ended the discussion.

That is true. However, no flame war actually broke out.
Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
tomh38
Vectorian
****
Posts: 913



« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2008, 08:34:27 am »

EPIC:  You're right, there was no flamewar.  I admit that I over-reacted, out of fear that a flamewar might have been about to happen.  I can see now that my fear was misplaced.  I apologize.
Logged

"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
overthere
Vectorian
****
Posts: 1275



« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2008, 06:22:54 pm »

Tomh38
It's fine..thanks..It could happen..I have inadvertantly caused that before on a forum mentioning I was praying to...someone.. no one stole all my underwears from the laundrymat..you would think they could leave two socks instead of one stuck to the side of the washer tub at least..never mind...kinda WAY off topic....ok..i'll stop typeing...
cheers
Logged

Everything Is Relative
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!