VectorLinux
April 19, 2014, 02:11:31 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Visit our home page for VL info. To search the old message board go to http://vectorlinux.com/forum1. The first VL forum is temporarily offline until we can find a host for it. Thanks for your patience.
 
Now powered by KnowledgeDex.
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Please support VectorLinux!
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Print  
Author Topic: VL is looking good  (Read 18527 times)
lagagnon
Global Moderator
Vectorian
*****
Posts: 1922



WWW
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2008, 01:52:51 pm »

I simply ask, Why are the nuts and bolts so poorly maintained? 

And I simply ask in response what in tarnation do you mean by "nuts and bolts" and also please explain what you mean by "poorly maintained"? Surely you cannot expect to throw around such ill-considered meaningless rhetoric without being questioned about it!
Logged

"As people become more intelligent they care less for preachers and more for teachers". Robert G. Ingersoll
tripleRsystem
Member
*
Posts: 22



« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2008, 02:39:10 pm »

   You may have the best cake, but if the guest cannot find you no one will come to the party.  Vl may run like a Swiss watch but until the community learns this nothing happens.  Linux Professionals may tweak and twist vl until the cows come home, but in the end if current thinking prevails vl will remain as it is now, mired in mediocrity.

  Perhaps in another ten years vl can have this discussion once more.  Hopefully your security problems for the whole wide world of non english speakers will be tweaked and twisted for the last time.
Logged
caitlyn
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2839



WWW
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2008, 02:51:26 pm »

What a ridiculous last statement.  I think a whole lot of the Linux community knows who we are.  As far as "professionals" are concerned, who would you like working on an OS?  Ignorant amateurs?   What do you want us to do?  Buy advertisements?  Hire marketers?  Who's going to pay for it?  We don't have a billionaire like Mark Shuttleworth to throw money at this distro the way he throws money at Ubuntu.  The best thing a distro developer can do is make the best possible distro.   Oh, and yes, it has to work like a Swiss watch.  A broken clock is right twice a day but who wants a broken clock?

Ubuntu has marketing and hype and a distro that's often broken.  I'd rather be at #20 on Distrowatch with a good distro than #1 with a broken one that often does as much harm as good for the Linux community.

You didn't like our answers.  We didn't embrace whatever ideas you have (I'm still not sure what they are, BTW) so you lash out at Vector Linux.  You know what?  If you can make a better distro than those who develop and maintain Vector Linux with smoke and mirrors and marketing and no "professionals" then more power to you.  You come here with nebulous talk about business models and marketing with no concrete suggestions and get all huffy and critical when people talk about real world things that can make the distro better.

I'm with lagagnon on this one.  Where do you come off with all this?  If you trivialize security you are an ignorant idiot.  If the majority of people in the world who speak languages other than English don't matter to you you're an idiot.  How can we reach out to more people if we don't speak their languages?

Take all the nuts and bolts out of your car and see how well it runs.

OK, I'm done with this thread.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 02:56:59 pm by caitlyn » Logged

eMachines EL-1300G desktop, 1.6GHz AMD Athlon 2650e CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6150 SE video
VLocity Linux 7.0-rc1

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video
VL 7.0 Light
rbistolfi
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2265


« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2008, 03:54:22 pm »

Well I think is time for a slow down. I don't get the point of this discussion, because there is not an exclusive disjunction. Security is important, and also marketing is important. I don't see any offensive in tripleRsystem post's, and nothing on them contradicting Caitlyn's posts and viceversa (well, calling people "idiot" is a bit offensive Wink). We can improve the distro from a technical viewpoint, and we can improve it from a marketing or "business architecture" viewpoint too. Why you are discussing about this like two things that cant be done at the same time is a mystery to me.
Logged

"There is a concept which corrupts and upsets all others. I refer not to Evil, whose limited realm is that of ethics; I refer to the infinite."
Jorge Luis Borges, Avatars of the Tortoise.

--
Jumalauta!!
tripleRsystem
Member
*
Posts: 22



« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2008, 05:10:22 pm »

Well I think is time for a slow down. I don't get the point of this discussion, because there is not an exclusive disjunction. Security is important, and also marketing is important. I don't see any offensive in tripleRsystem post's, and nothing on them contradicting Caitlyn's posts and viceversa (well, calling people "idiot" is a bit offensive Wink). We can improve the distro from a technical viewpoint, and we can improve it from a marketing or "business architecture" viewpoint too. Why you are discussing about this like two things that cant be done at the same time is a mystery to me.


Thank you. 

I've never ment to imply security or any other vl internal maintenance is wasted effort. I've only attemted to bring out the need to think outside the box if vl is move forward.  There is no doubt vl will be a better distro because of Caitlyn's applied knowledge to vl.  So let's all work together and move vl forward.
Logged
stretchedthin
Administrator
Vectorian
*****
Posts: 3780


WWW
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2008, 05:19:22 pm »

Whoa easy now, it seems to me that tripleRsystem is just trying to answer the call that started this thread.

quote author=vector link=topic=7294.msg49821#msg49821 date=1221465066]
Thank you for the kind words. My problem is Vector has been around longer than Ubuntu, mint or even pclos. In fact we are older than than 90% of the distros on distrowatch but still people do not know vector and still think its a new distro much of the time. We get usually five reviews per release all generally good to excellent
and yet no respect............what are we to do .............after 10 years I am out of ideas.............so new ideas would be good!

Vector
[/quote]

I have re-read your comments and see nothing negative about them.  I also agree Vector can be better promoted. (No dos bombs, or whatever you called them.)  However, if we are going to advertise a better mousetrap, we have to be confident it is a better mousetrap.  Since VL 6.0 is on the horizon, maybe the best energies can be spent encouraging the development that you believe will make Vector a better solution for a larger number of people.

Really there are probably 100's of different reasons people choose what will be their distro, but finding the magic 20% of the most important ones, that will attract 80% of the users is really how you capture a market. (To continue your business analogy, which I completely understood from the get go.)

Other wise you become a niche player.  And there is nothing wrong with that either, you just have to be comfortable with a smaller market and that's not what I hear in Vectors comment above.

My 2 bits earlier in this thread was to give newbies the answers for the questions they are most likely to be asking right at start up.  In the form of a pop up web page.  In short make it simple by educating before the frustrations rather than after them.

I've also read user comments in this forum who would like GSlapt to be more consistent with descriptions of the application and it's dependencies.

Others, simply would like a larger number of applications in the repository.

However, to Caitlyns credit, three of the biggest hot buttons people do have are internationalization, updates / upgrades that just work, and security.

I think the points that sold me are the speed, hardware recognition, good selection of apps on the disk, ease of installation (try adding a home partition to Ubuntu as a newbie), and this forum.

So what do you think we should add,  where is the most juice for the squeeze?





Logged

Vectorlinux screencasts and  tutorials can be found at....
http://www.opensourcebistro.com/blog1
http://www.youtube.com/user/vid4ken?feature=mhee
tripleRsystem
Member
*
Posts: 22



« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2008, 06:09:33 pm »

I have to agree with caitlyn on this one... Security and localization are serious deficiencies that should be addressed.

My dearest Moe, I too believe that security issues must be addressed, but it's not necessary to come to a full stop to address these issues. Marketing and maintenance can move forward together in harmony.
Logged
tripleRsystem
Member
*
Posts: 22



« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2008, 06:33:18 pm »

I simply ask, Why are the nuts and bolts so poorly maintained? 

And I simply ask in response what in tarnation do you mean by "nuts and bolts" and also please explain what you mean by "poorly maintained"? Surely you cannot expect to throw around such ill-considered meaningless rhetoric without being questioned about it!

I draw my conclusion from post such as this:  You may find the full post on this thread.

I'm a Linux professional and I would *NEVER* recommend Vector Linux to one of my customers for use either on the desktop or in the server room.  Why not?  When known security issues crop up sometimes someone gets a new package to fix the problem out.  Sometimes not.  Sometimes it happens quickly, sometimes it happens eventually, and sometimes it never happens at all.  If a security fix is packaged does it get tested and moved to the repositories promptly?  VL's history says no, absolutely not!


My words were, perhaps, in poor taste, and I apologize. I am only attempting to illustrate there are equally important needs vl must address beyond internal maintenance if vl it is to move forward.  It’s my understanding per vectors post this is his immediate concern.

What a great Ameican expression "tarnation"  I think it's great.
Logged
waynev
Member
*
Posts: 44


« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2008, 08:14:26 pm »

Forget the idea that I going anywhere.  I understand most of what has been posted is just self posturing.  Is the link broken to buy SOHO? I'm wireless again Roll Eyes and I will only buy as long as I'm running SOHO wireless to VL Roll Eyes  Hey sorry I hijacked the thread, but I'm not the only guilty one.  Where's is the mod to keep this straight, or am I not to supposed to ask Grin
Logged
vector
Administrator
Vectorite
*****
Posts: 479



« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2008, 10:11:19 pm »

hold off on your soho buy we have a new one in a couple of days...........5.9.1 bug fixes security issues and upgrades.
cheers,
Vec
Logged
waynev
Member
*
Posts: 44


« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2008, 02:49:50 pm »

Since tripRsystem has raised the same issue in two threads I'm posting my response in two threads.  My apologies to those who've read this already...

Sorry, but I just don't see the point in thinking in terms of marketing and conventional business strategies.  Vector Linux makes exactly zero dollars if one new user downloads and installs VL or if a million do.  Yes, a few more people might by SOHO if it's more popular and I suppose that's good.  Most Linux companies make their money selling support and consulting services.  Marketing the new support offerings to businesses makes sense.  Worrying about if we're ranked 15th or 23rd on Distrowatch makes no sense and IMHO simply doesn't matter.

I'm a Linux professional and I would *NEVER* recommend Vector Linux to one of my customers for use either on the desktop or in the server room.  Why not?  When known security issues crop up sometimes someone gets a new package to fix the problem out.  Sometimes not.  Sometimes it happens quickly, sometimes it happens eventually, and sometimes it never happens at all.  If a security fix is packaged does it get tested and moved to the repositories promptly?  VL's history says no, absolutely not!

Do we inform users of security issues?  Sometimes yes, mostly no.  We have the mechanisms to do it in the forum, on the website, and via RSS.  Everything is in place and it's rarely used.  Look at the website -- no security news since July yet in August both DoS and buffer overflow vulnerabilities were discovered in xine-lib.  The good news is toothandnail did make a new package.  The bad news is that it just got into the patches repository a few days ago.  No information about it was ever disseminated to the users.

If VL wants to be taken seriously it needs to get its act in order when it comes to security.  That probably isn't going to happen on a volunteer basis.

A person would need to be outfitted in Mules blinders to think so narrowly.   Geez, all of these things should be normal everyday housekeeping items.   Every Distro faces the same problem in keeping its distro updated and improving security.  So what gives with all this maintenance stuff?  Maintenance won’t translate into broader linux user awareness for VL.   VL may have the most up to date and security tight distro in Linux World but unless the world is told it won’t be known.  That requires some type of get out the good news effort.  I think I read somewhere they call it marketing.   How can anyone with any common sense think that setting in some room crunching code is all that’s required;  NUTS!. 
Logged
caitlyn
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2839



WWW
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2008, 03:09:13 pm »

waynev:  None of the major distros has problems getting security patches on a timely basis.  Show me even one example where Ubuntu, Red Hat/Fedora/CentOS, Suse, Mandriva, Debian, or Slackware has failed to do so over the past few years.  Just one.  You can't do it.  They all take security seriously.  Your claim that every distro faces this problem is pure B.S.!  Again, I challenge you to show me even one documented example. 

Blinders?  You're the one whose nuts if you think this isn't important.  It absolutely prevents us from reaching a wider audience.  I can't think of  anything more important to solve.  I know the developers take this issue VERY seriously even if you don't.

Where on earth do you get the idea that the world isn't told about VL?  There are articles about and reviews of VL all over the net.  What have you done to get the word out?  What makes you think that I don't help get the word out?  Go to the O'Reilly Media website (you know, the folks who are the largest publisher of technical books, including Linux books) and search out how many articles about Vector Linux I've written over the past three years.  The search for my name and Vector Linux on lxer.com, linuxtoday.com, and linux.com.  Tell me again how I have blinders after that or how I or anyone else you're lecturing to has been deficient in getting the word out.

I'm really, really tired of you and your other newbie buddy telling us that we're not doing whatever it is we're supposed to do to let the world know we're here.  I'm also really, really tired of reading the idea that we can ignore our shortcomings and put out crap compared to the major distros and it won't matter so long as we get the word out.

OK, since you see the world so much more clearly than I do how about you or your buddy offer up one concrete suggestion of what we're supposed to be doing to get the word out that we aren't doing already.  I haven't seen one yet.  All I see is a lot of pontificating, spouting off, and claiming that you two newbies no so much bettter than those of us who have been using this distro for years.  Also, while you're at it, tell us how you are going to volunteer to make this distro either better known or better technically.  I've been getting the word out on every major Linux forum.  Have you?  I've been building packages and lately I've helped to maintain our repositories.  What have you done?

Do you still think I have blinders?  Methinks you have no clue whatsoever about what you are talking about.  Do a little Google search next time before making accusations, OK?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 03:15:49 pm by caitlyn » Logged

eMachines EL-1300G desktop, 1.6GHz AMD Athlon 2650e CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6150 SE video
VLocity Linux 7.0-rc1

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video
VL 7.0 Light
waynev
Member
*
Posts: 44


« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2008, 03:51:16 pm »

waynev:  None of the major distros has problems getting security patches on a timely basis.  Show me even one example where Ubuntu, Red Hat/Fedora/CentOS, Suse, Mandriva, Debian, or Slackware has failed to do so over the past few years.  Just one.  You can't do it.  They all take security seriously.  Your claim that every distro faces this problem is pure B.S.!  Again, I challenge you to show me even one documented example. 

Blinders?  You're the one whose nuts if you think this isn't important.  It absolutely prevents us from reaching a wider audience.  I can't think of  anything more important to solve.  I know the developers take this issue VERY seriously even if you don't.

Where on earth do you get the idea that the world isn't told about VL?  There are articles about and reviews of VL all over the net.  What have you done to get the word out?  What makes you think that I don't help get the word out?  Go to the O'Reilly Media website (you know, the folks who are the largest publisher of technical books, including Linux books) and search out how many articles about Vector Linux I've written over the past three years.  The search for my name and Vector Linux on lxer.com, linuxtoday.com, and linux.com.  Tell me again how I have blinders after that or how I or anyone else you're lecturing to has been deficient in getting the word out.

I'm really, really tired of you and your other newbie buddy telling us that we're not doing whatever it is we're supposed to do to let the world know we're here.  I'm also really, really tired of reading the idea that we can ignore our shortcomings and put out crap compared to the major distros and it won't matter so long as we get the word out.

OK, since you see the world so much more clearly than I do how about you or your buddy offer up one concrete suggestion of what we're supposed to be doing to get the word out that we aren't doing already.  I haven't seen one yet.  All I see is a lot of pontificating, spouting off, and claiming that you two newbies no so much bettter than those of us who have been using this distro for years.  Also, while you're at it, tell us how you are going to volunteer to make this distro either better known or better technically.  I've been getting the word out on every major Linux forum.  Have you?  I've been building packages and lately I've helped to maintain our repositories.  What have you done?

Do you still think I have blinders?  Methinks you have no clue whatsoever about what you are talking about.  Do a little Google search next time before making accusations, OK?

I found you posting the same stuff on two threads so I just followed your lead, but of course you are special.  Please note I did not call you Idiot; Idiot.  BTW; you forgot to tell me your a Linux Professional.
Logged
caitlyn
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 2839



WWW
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2008, 04:09:09 pm »

When you can't answer my questions or offer even one concrete suggestion you retreat to name calling.  Very nice.  Where did I call you an idiot? 

Again, what aren't we doing to get the word out?  What would you do differently?  I'd really like some concrete suggestions.  Since you're busy criticizing VL for not publicizing itself you must have some, right? 

What are you doing to help Vector Linux?  What contribution have you made?  OK, you're new so that's not entirely fair.  What contribution are you going to make?

My own contribution is tiny, as in truly miniscule compared to many who hang out on this forum.  You're so focused on publicity and marketing and you obviously think you know way more about it than I do.  After all, you've decided I'm an idiot.  So... please, look at what I've done to publicize VL and tell me what I'm doing wrong.  Explain to me how to get those blinders off.  After all, I'm such an idiot in your eyes you must know more than I do.  Tell me what's wrong with these:

http://news.oreilly.com/2008/07/vector-linux-soho-59-deluxe-no-1.html
http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/06/kde_built_for_speed_vector_lin.html
http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2008/09/vector-linux-partners-with-sqi.html
http://www.linux.org/news/2007/06/26/0005.html
http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2007091302126OSRL
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=101015
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=90766
http://www.reviewlinux.com/forums/news/9333-gnome-2-18-for-vector-linux-5-8-a.html
http://blog.ro-design.net/index.php/2008/09/10/vector-linux-partners-with-sqi-to-provide-support-infrastructure.html
http://www.linux.com/feed/142632
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20080728
http://www.home-of-linux.org/vector-linux-586rc1-released/
http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/01/new_releasecool_canadian_distr.html
http://www.opensourceguild.com/index.php?module=RSS&func=display&fid=6
http://labs.daylife.com/journalist/caitlyn_martin

I could post more samples but I think this is enough.  Now, please, help me.  Show me where my blinders are.  Explain to me how I'm not getting the word out and how I'm harming Vector Linux by not doing marketing or promotion in a good way.  Show me the right way to do it.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 04:54:02 pm by caitlyn » Logged

eMachines EL-1300G desktop, 1.6GHz AMD Athlon 2650e CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6150 SE video
VLocity Linux 7.0-rc1

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video
VL 7.0 Light
wcs
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 1144


« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2008, 12:45:34 am »

Going back to a suggestions made before, I agree that localisation is pretty important.
In fact, I think that alone could get the word out about vl quite a bit. I suppose it's a "marketing" issue even more than a "technical" one, although as others have pointed out, there's no real dichotomy in there.

I've offered to work on localisation for Portuguese at some point, and am still up for it, if there's any coordinated localisation project going on.
I hope to be less busy in about a month, and could start by translating the text in VL utilities and the like.

A tiny contribution, but hey, there are at least 176,000,000 native speakers of Portuguese.  Wink
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=por
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!