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Author Topic: Interesting thread at LQ. What do you think?  (Read 8130 times)
kukibl
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« on: November 12, 2008, 02:14:36 am »

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/improving-slackware-based-distros-all-to-one-new-slackware-based-distro-620009/


Second part of thread is quite interesting since it is concerning with Slackware "forks" and opinions come from hardcore Slackware users. What do you people think? Smiley
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tomh38
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 06:06:55 am »

I have never understood the problem that some people have with others "forking" their beloved Linux distribution.  All people are doing is taking a given distribution, adding/altering some things, and aiming the new distribution at a new and/or different user base.  I personally have two reasons for using Vector Linux as opposed to Slackware.

1) Vector Linux has some things which Slackware does not; there are quite a few of them now, but the first thing that comes to mind is VASM/VASMCC.  I've found this set of tools very helpful many times.

2) The VL community is (and has been as long as I've been using VL) very helpful, very open to new users, and generally friendly.  I haven't found this to be so in the main Slackware community.  As great as Slackware is, many of the devs and "hardcore users" are grumpy and unhelpful.

Consider this post from rworkman from the LQ thread linked by kukibl:

Quote
Another attempt to ride on the coattails of Slackware - that's all.
If most of these "forks" were so damn good, they wouldn't have to throw around the "based on Slackware" stuff.

I'll leave open the possibility that there's a rare exception to this, but as I see it, the "fork" distributions aren't truly even forks. They "re-branch" with every stable Slackware release, and one even issues point releases at various spots based on the -current development tree. Essentially, they add/remove/modify a few things, rebrand it, and pull mindshare/marketshare/users/whatever from Slackware. A parasite that is too effective kills its host, and then they both die.

It's not the kind of thing that gets people excited about a distro.  I'm not saying that the attitude displayed in rworkman's post is typical of the Slackware community ... but I do think that it may be fairly common.  I never see that sort of thing around here at VL.

Tom
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 07:48:12 am »

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tomh38
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2008, 07:54:04 am »

ROFL
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2008, 07:58:48 am »

I found this guy's personal website. Look around, he is almost a template Linux nutter.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 08:00:57 am by Epic Fail Guy » Logged

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Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
tomh38
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 08:30:47 am »

I found this guy's personal website. Look around, he is almost a template Linux nutter.

Did you look at his "Random Thoughts" page?  I think "nutter" is even more operative in this guy's life than "Linux."

Anyway, back to the original topic (the LQ thread).  For years I used to cringe at the idea of posting a question or suggestion in a Linux IRC chatroom, forum, etc., because I knew there was a good chance that I was going to get flamed, no matter what I wrote.  I think things have changed somewhat.  Linux still isn't mainstream, but I think things have changed enough that you don't automatically get smashed to pieces for asking a newbie question.  Apart from the VL forums, the various places where you can get help with Ubuntu seem pretty friendly and helpful.

Tom
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2008, 11:00:53 am »

Almost nothing is as bad as #lisp on freenode. Most of the regular users always have a bug up their ass about one thing or another.

I found this guy's personal website. Look around, he is almost a template Linux nutter.

Did you look at his "Random Thoughts" page?  I think "nutter" is even more operative in this guy's life than "Linux."

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 11:30:51 am by Epic Fail Guy » Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
rworkman
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2008, 02:41:00 pm »

Ah yes, let's just resort to (baseless) personal attacks rather than addressing the actual words, concepts, and ideas by me.  I can't say I blame you - at least you appear to be a "winner" this way.

On the subject of flaming "noob" users, how about actually checking my posting history on LQ?  How about looking through IRC logs?  Not only do I respond sans flames for the most part, I actually take time to try and explain the *rationale* behind the solution in most cases.  I know it makes better "sound bytes" to throw out the tired argument of Slackware users being unhelpful, but it's simply not true.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 02:48:38 pm by rworkman » Logged

nightflier
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2008, 03:34:28 pm »

I'm with rworkman on this one. He made three posts in this board last year, all respectful and appropriate. Nothing controversial or flameworthy.

We are all entitled to our personal opinions, but not to impose them upon others.

I suggest reserving the rest of this thread to discussing the merits of forks, or apologies.
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caitlyn
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2008, 04:08:50 pm »

The resorting to personal attacks above is so unlike the VL community.  It's what we are known for NOT doing.  I hope a couple of people will think better of what they wrote and modify or remove the posts.  I may not agree with what rworkman posted in the LQ thread but attacking him personally here is completely uncalled for.

Where do I disagree with him and others in the LQ forum?  The better Slackware derivatives end up looking nothing like Slackware.  Vector as an example has solid dependency checking, user friendly graphical admin tools that go way beyond VASM, and a fairly large repository of extra packages, none of which are included in Slackware.  VL has better hardware detection than Slack and includes a fair number of drivers also not included in Slack.  Beginning with 6,.0 VL adds a graphical, user friendly installer and nice, easy graphical localisation/internationalisation.

VL, Zenwalk, Wolvix, the now abandoned Tukaani, and others have added tools and apps that have been picked up by other distros, in many cases ones that have nothing to do with Slackware, and have benefitted the Linux community as a whole.  wicd, which we now also include, is an obvious example for Zenwalk.

I personally think Vector his head and shoulders better than Slackware.  I also think if Slackware ever disappeared VL could pretty easily continue as a truly independent distro.
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eMachines EL-1300G desktop, 1.6GHz AMD Athlon 2650e CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6150 SE video
CentOS 6.5 (will try VL64-7.1 soon)

Toshiba Satellite A135-S4727,  Intel Pentium T2080 / 1.73 GHz, 2GB RAM, Intel GMA 950

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video, VL 7.1
rbistolfi
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2008, 04:28:56 pm »

I didn't say anything because I knew rworkman is a member of this forum Grin. I did find something offensive in the LQ thread,
it should make a list with the offending SW derivatives, and not make accusations without names. I didn't feel VL was being attacked in that thread because VL, for good or not, is not a SW re-branding, maybe some of our friends did. VL 6.0 deployment started the day after SW 12.1 was released iirc, and 34 alphas were produced since then. It doesn't look just as a SW re-branding to me.
The topic "are the forks in general a good or a bad thing" is useless, a good fork is good, and a bad fork is bad. I know it
sounds stupid, we call this "a tautology", but the point is that we can't say anything about the merit of forks in general.
Even more: the sole fact of trying to make something good has some merit, even when the goal is never reached. Therefore, is
possible a "bad fork" with some merit Grin
About contributing to mainstream, VL is gpl'd, so Patrick can take whatever he likes, if he wants to.

PS: as a complicated guy, I always feel that my English is not good enough when the topic is also complicated. I offer my
usual, ritual, apologies.

PS2: @rworkman, I liked your KDE4 packages
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rworkman
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2008, 04:53:14 pm »

added tools and apps that have been picked up by other distros, in many cases ones that have nothing to do with Slackware, and have benefitted the Linux community as a whole.  wicd, which we now also include, is an obvious example for Zenwalk.

I'm in agreement that wicd is good inclusion; however, I'm curious as to why I haven't seen any contributions from you guys to make it integrate better into Slackware and derivatives?  There was a lot of low-hanging fruit that was relatively easy to address; I know this because I personally have at least 20 or so patches included in upstream wicd.
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2008, 05:09:06 pm »

I didn't remember rworkman; after all, he only has four posts. Since it seems few people know he posted here, the remarks Tom and I made were not intended as 'personal attacks' anymore than knocks on Steve Ballmer would be intended as such. No one would expect him to be reading.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 05:11:18 pm by Epic Fail Guy » Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
rworkman
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2008, 06:13:13 pm »

I didn't remember rworkman; after all, he only has four posts. Since it seems few people know he posted here, the remarks Tom and I made were not intended as 'personal attacks' anymore than knocks on Steve Ballmer would be intended as such. No one would expect him to be reading.

Interesting interpretation of what does and does not constitute a personal attack - I guess your nickname is very appropriate.
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2008, 06:29:05 pm »

I didn't remember rworkman; after all, he only has four posts. Since it seems few people know he posted here, the remarks Tom and I made were not intended as 'personal attacks' anymore than knocks on Steve Ballmer would be intended as such. No one would expect him to be reading.

Interesting interpretation of what does and does not constitute a personal attack - I guess your nickname is very appropriate.

A remark is not a personal attack when you believe the object of said remark is not aware of it, and thus unable to argue against it, because the only point of a 'personal attack' is to score points in an argument. (This, for instance, is not a personal attack: 你是白痴.) We were not arguing with you.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go over some mail from a university that just accepted me. Good evening.
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"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
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