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Author Topic: Interesting thread at LQ. What do you think?  (Read 8513 times)
bigpaws
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2008, 07:02:17 pm »

Quote
I didn't remember rworkman; after all, he only has four posts. Since it seems few people know he posted here, the remarks Tom and I made were not intended as 'personal attacks' anymore than knocks on Steve Ballmer would be intended as such. No one would expect him to be reading.

If there is a name attached it should be expected that they may read it which
is where the problem is. There should never make any comments that may
be somewhat questionable as far as the intent. They can haunt you in the future.

There is an interpretation that asking a question on LQ or maybe irc would be flamed.

I have in the past had the same fear about posting questions on LQ or irc. I took the time
to read things like how to ask a good question, another was how to really become involved
in a community. One of those things being to contribute back to the community in any form.
Why should anyone expect to continue to answer the same question time and time again?
Most users are now expecting that without even so much as doing a search.

I guess that it is a lost cause. I stick with Slackware for several reasons, one is that the installs
have not failed including X. The attacks that Slackware gets for not updating the installation
is flawed. When a tool works and it works well why make it a be all end all.

Rworkman has made alot of contributions to the Slackware community. All of the assistance
I have seen him make to users has been with respect. Not that it means much but he has my
respect.

Bigpaws
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2008, 10:18:58 pm »

Quote
I didn't remember rworkman; after all, he only has four posts. Since it seems few people know he posted here, the remarks Tom and I made were not intended as 'personal attacks' anymore than knocks on Steve Ballmer would be intended as such. No one would expect him to be reading.

If there is a name attached it should be expected that they may read it which
is where the problem is. There should never make any comments that may
be somewhat questionable as far as the intent. They can haunt you in the future.

If rworkman has been a boon to the Slackware community and to n00bs, more power to him. I never said he wasn't. However, I don't feel particularly "haunted" when someone who doesn't think the government should support infirm old people finds out what I think about his opinion, even if I didn't know he was looking. I meant what I said and there's no point in taking it back now.
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tomh38
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2008, 04:00:37 am »

I want to be clear that I have nothing against rworkman personally.  I quoted his post from the LQ thread for a few reasons.  That particular post, in itself, certainly looks to me like an attack on Slackware-based distributions in general.  If it wasn't intended that way, then perhaps I misunderstood it.  If that is the case, then I apologize to you, rworkman.  The post also seemed somewhat harsh to me as a response to the original post in the thread.  I used it as an example of how it's possible to get bashed in various Linux forums.  If it is the case that in the overall context of rworkman's overall contribution to Slackware and to the Linux community in general that the post in question was warranted, then I admit I could be mistaken about that as well.

As far as the comment I made regarding the "random thoughts" section of his personal web site, all that I will say is that this forum is not the place to discuss political ideas, and that it was wrong for me to place that comment here.

Regarding everything else I wrote, especially the things about how easy it is to get slammed by various members of the Linux community who are hostile in various ways, I stand by what I said.
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
caitlyn
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2008, 10:40:23 am »

In regard to being slammed by members of the Linux community, well... some of you know I've had some interesting experiences related to my writing for O'Reilly.  When I posted a very mixed review of VL 5.8 nearly two years ago the response from the VL developers and VL community was to treat it as constructive criticism and to focus on the strengths in VL I did point out.  I was so impressed I started volunteering. 

By contrast, when I posted a review of Slackware 12.1, also very mixed, I had some in the Slackware community who wanted to flay me alive.  After being hounded by some members of the Puppy Linux community for a review I finally wrote a post stating why I couldn't do it. (The distro wouldn't run on my hardware).  It went beyond personal attacks into threats and intimidation as well as notes to my editor demanding that my posts be pulled.  (My editor stood by me, BTW.)

What I've learned is that there are good, helpful communities in the Linux world.  The Vector Linux community is usually a shining example.  There are also some noxious communities.  It only takes a few loudmouths and no controls to turn a community into something unpleasant.

@Epic Fall Guy:  I probably have as much distaste for rworkman's politics as you do.  As others have pointed out this isn't a political forum so I decided to not comment on that.  OTOH, you really aren't a shining light either.  I resisted the temptation to flame you some months back when you referred to something as "gay" in a perjorative way.  The post, probably unintentionally, came off as homophobic.  I am **NOT** accusing you of that or any other form of bigotry.  What I am saying is that we all can be attacked for things we once said or wrote or views that we have which may not be popular in certain circles. 

I don't agree with your definition of a personal attack.  Saying something nasty behind someone's back is still saying something nasty about them.  You have to assume, both IRL and online, that it will get back to them.

Oh, and congratulations on being accepted into university.  I hope it was the school of your choice.
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newt
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Posts: 1132



« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2008, 11:56:08 am »

Off topic:

Every occasionally, when something reminds me of it, I find it interesting to look at a timeline like THIS.
Is it totally accurate? No, but it gives a generalized impression of where some distros came from and it's fun to look at.

BTW, I thought VL was from 1999 not 2000  Huh
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tomh38
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2008, 12:40:48 pm »

@ newtor:

Wow, really cool, even if not totally accurate.

Tom
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2008, 02:46:26 pm »

By contrast, when I posted a review of Slackware 12.1, also very mixed, I had some in the Slackware community who wanted to flay me alive.  After being hounded by some members of the Puppy Linux community for a review I finally wrote a post stating why I couldn't do it. (The distro wouldn't run on my hardware).  It went beyond personal attacks into threats and intimidation as well as notes to my editor demanding that my posts be pulled.  (My editor stood by me, BTW.)

They threatened you over not reviewing Puppy Linux? That's just sad.

OTOH, you really aren't a shining light either.  I resisted the temptation to flame you some months back when you referred to something as "gay" in a perjorative way.  The post, probably unintentionally, came off as homophobic.

To call something 'gay' in a pejorative sense is no more homophobic than to say 'nitty-gritty' (from 'nits and grits', the vile bilge that collected at the bottom of a slave ship) should be considered offensive to blacks. Believe it or not, someone actually tried banning that one:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10352592

When I say something like "administrative gayness" or "we got gayed", it very obviously has nothing to do with homosexuality.

I don't agree with your definition of a personal attack.  Saying something nasty behind someone's back is still saying something nasty about them.  You have to assume, both IRL and online, that it will get back to them.

Calling someone a 'nutter' barely registers on the vitriol meter.

Also, I called someone 'sha3 zi' in earshot twice and she never found out what it meant.

Oh, and congratulations on being accepted into university.  I hope it was the school of your choice.

Not exactly. I got mail from Cornell after all, and it looks like I could transfer there. But it's an outrageously expensive school. At most, I could go there for two years of postbac studies. I would not be ashamed of going to SUNY @ Buffalo, however, and am waiting to hear back from Temple and Drexel as well.
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Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
caitlyn
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2008, 03:20:10 pm »

When I say something like "administrative gayness" or "we got gayed", it very obviously has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Errr... yes, it does, and it is considered offensive.   Even though I am not gay I recognize it for what it is.  Just like I had to stop myself from going ballistic when someone said "Jewed me down" in front of me.  That is definitely offensive to Jewish people and I happen to be Jewish.  Has to do with a very old stereotype about Jews being cheap.  Expressions that reinforce negative stereotypes are or at least should be really beyond the pale.
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eMachines EL-1300G desktop, 1.6GHz AMD Athlon 2650e CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia GeForce 6150 SE video
CentOS 6.5 (will try VL64-7.1 soon)

Toshiba Satellite A135-S4727,  Intel Pentium T2080 / 1.73 GHz, 2GB RAM, Intel GMA 950

HP Mini 110 netbook, 1.6GHz Intel Atom CPU, 2GB RAM, Intel 950 video, VL 7.1
Triarius Fidelis
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Domine, exaudi vocem meam


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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2008, 04:37:28 pm »

When I say something like "administrative gayness" or "we got gayed", it very obviously has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Errr... yes, it does, and it is considered offensive.

Then why isn't 'nitty-gritty' offensive? Meanings of words change. Terms like 'nerd', and, hell, even 'Christian' used to be slurs until the target groups took them and started wearing them. I remember when I was in primary school, calling someone a 'nerd' was something you could be disciplined for. Now it means next to nothing. I don't think it's my job, or anyone else's, to define the connotations of words.

Even though I am not gay I recognize it for what it is.  Just like I had to stop myself from going ballistic when someone said "Jewed me down" in front of me.  That is definitely offensive to Jewish people and I happen to be Jewish.  Has to do with a very old stereotype about Jews being cheap.  Expressions that reinforce negative stereotypes are or at least should be really beyond the pale.

On the season finale of Real Time with Bill Maher, he mentioned a Catholic priest who wouldn't administer the sacrament of Communion to people who voted for Obama, saying that "cracker wouldn't give them the cracker". The use of 'cracker' as it referred to the priest reinforced the stereotype of white people being lame and possibly racist sticks-in-the-mud. I and most of the people in the live audience were whites. However, we found this remark funny. Do you know why?

Please, let's not take too hard a line against demographic humor. It only pushes it underground, e.g., http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/LotR_Ethnic_Stereotypes. (And notice that whoever wrote this article has some detailed understanding of the groups of people he is talking about, and might even aim for a Master's in Geography.)
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GrannyGeek
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2008, 05:16:51 pm »

I agree with caitlyn that "gay" used as a pejorative is offensive to gay people--and those of us like me who aren't gay but are disgusted by anti-gay prejudice.  Epic Fall Guy, you don't intend an offensive sense when you call something negative "gay," but I dare say that as commonly used, "gay" does depend on scratching that anti-homosexual slimy underbelly that is one of the last socially acceptable prejudices (see Proposition 8 approval in California).

Much as some want to deny it, words can hurt very badly, which is why thoughtful people modify their language out of consideration for the feelings of others.
--GrannyGeek
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Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2008, 05:35:43 pm »

I agree with caitlyn that "gay" used as a pejorative is offensive to gay people--and those of us like me who aren't gay but are disgusted by anti-gay prejudice.  Epic Fall Guy, you don't intend an offensive sense when you call something negative "gay," but I dare say that as commonly used, "gay" does depend on scratching that anti-homosexual slimy underbelly that is one of the last socially acceptable prejudices (see Proposition 8 approval in California).

The bottom line for me is that actions speak louder than words. I railed against Prop 8. In fact, I find all that rhetoric about "redefining marriage" very silly when you consider that documentation dating as early as the 8th century in the Vatican, Paris, Constantinople (now Istanbul), etc. indicates sanctification of same-sex unions by the Church. There is even church art that depicts men married with men.


[St. Sergius and Bacchus, who were definitely gay for each other. Notice that the best man is Jesus himself.]

I figure if all the people in California who got that ban passed want to revert to the Middle Ages, I will agree with them this one time: they might as well do it and let gay people get married!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 05:38:49 pm by Epic Fail Guy » Logged

"Leatherface, you BITCH! Ho Chi Minh, hah hah hah!"

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rbistolfi
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2008, 06:07:06 pm »


"Meaning just is use"
Ludwig Wittgenstein
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tomh38
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2008, 04:48:13 am »

On one episode of The Simpsons, Jimbo and Kearney confront their friend Nelson Muntz:

Kearney: Aw, man! You just kissed a girl!
Jimbo Jones: That is so gay!

...

I'm all for fighting discrimination against gay people, but can't we go back to the real purpose of this thread, i.e. bashing people who bash people in Linux threads?
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"I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones." - Linus Torvalds, April 1991
Triarius Fidelis
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2008, 02:07:22 pm »

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Formerly known as "Epic Fail Guy" and "Döden" in recent months
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