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[stretchedthin]

http://www.opensourcebistro.com

I've always disliked when reviews of VL stated it was a great distribution but maybe not for newbies.
I'm hoping to make a site that will change that.
Ken

[caitlyn]

Please accept my apologies in advance if I offend you, but...

WTF?

Vector Linux has a Wiki and has excellent if outdated docs.  Why reinvent the wheel?  Work with the existing doc team to update and improve the docs and the wiki.  Don't create duplicates, especially half baked duplicates.

This is a VERY BAD IDEA.

Oh, and I write those reviews and I stand by them.  They weren't written for VL 6.0, were they?  What lacks in VL in terms of user friendliness can't be fixed with a website.  Fortunately the developers have fixed 90% of it in 6.0.

[stretchedthin]

Please accept my apologies in advance if I offend you, but...

WTF?

Caitlyn, I'm not offended.  This was the 1st response I was expecting. (And the WTF?, response was hilarious)
 
You are of course are correct that VL6.0 is the most user friendly version yet. I don't see how this effort changes that.  I can see how it would complement it, however, as more people who are new to Linux are attracted to the distro.

Video tutorials are used by Ubuntu, Puppy Linux, and are shared by the hundreds on youtube for various distro's by linux enthusiasts.  Some people are just visual, and understand better when they see things being done.
This is not a substitute for the forum, I don't even see how it relates.  Some of the tutorials will actually feature the forum and how it can help.

Each tutorial serves in a way as a little commercial advertising VL, it's abilities and the friendliness and willingness to help.  (And I've got to hand it to the forum members, they are the best group around.

Vector Linux has a Wiki and has excellent if outdated docs.  Why reinvent the wheel?  Work with the existing doc team to update and improve the docs and the wiki.

I'd be happy to, and vise versa I would like the doc teams OK to take some of the tutorials from the forum and make them into a flash tutorial.

Don't create duplicates, especially half baked duplicates.

Well there might be duplicates, some people may prefer to learn visually, others of course the text version (much better for cutting and pasting).
As far as half baked, maybe so, but I can easily edit any real problem info, based on the comments of people who respond, and I'm willing to do so.

Oh, and I write those reviews and I stand by them.

OK.  I've never disagreed with you reviews (real nice job by the way on Distrowatch).  It is because of the reviews (yours and others) I assume that the issue of user friendliness was addressed so well in VL6.0

I especially liked the improvements in internationalization,  Gslapt now with upgradeable from the gui, and the improved focus in security. All of which I am aware you played a major part.

I just don't see the downside in offering more help.
Ken

[newt]

To start, your enthusiasm is great.  The effort you've put into creating your opensourcebistro tutorial site is also fantastic.  I believe that you are presenting a valid point-of-view and many users would use visual examples as well as the verbal.  Your efforts are to be applauded.

I think cait is mainly trying to narrow your focus and direct you in an even more useful way - i.e. the exisiting wiki and documentation.  There's is no reason that your efforts cannot be integrated directly into the official VL wiki, and every reason that they *should*. Your written words are essentially an update to the VL documentation, however when folks come to vectorlinux.com and look at the documentation they do not see your work - thus, in essence, it does not exist and the VL docs are STILL out-of-date.  The benefit of updating what's already existing is that much of it just builds (or comes from) on top of what's already there with minor changes here-and-there; I think the speed and efficiency of the documentation updates would greatly increase for many sections.

I would agree with cait.  Move your efforts to the official wiki and docs; create your verbal and visual tutorials; and create a copy of the data on opensourcebistro as you move along.

[Windozer]

Ken,

I second Newtor and Caitlyn --- perhaps having your own site gives you more flexibility, but at the very least, make links in the VL wiki each time you have a new item.  There's another aspect: I don't know how much bandwidth or storage the VL site has,  having it mirrored in both places would be good ... but ONLY if it stays very parallel, otherwise it does seem like a bad idea... there is too much info on the net already, it's nice to have a one-stop shop.

I watched your GSlaptintro video --- it's good, and nice to have a step by step like this.  I followed and paused as needed and installed a the font thingy you used as a sample.  Also reviewed the appfinder vid.  You might want to indicate when a vid doesn't have sound - so it doesn't throw off a N00B. Both of these methods are known good teaching techniques.

Please do help on the wiki --- it needs the attention, especially since a new release is on the horizon. 

thanks for your efforts,
- Howard in Florida
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Masta]

Why must one have to limit themselves to what already exists?
 He started it, and might as well carry it on, fine tune it, add onto it... refer to the existing wiki and what-not if need to, but for crying out loud, let the person do what he's obvious good at doing!?
 SO he may have some duplication that's already in the wiki or whatever,, big harry ass deal. The more places for information the better, so long as they're accurate in information and useful to visitors.

I don't see the wheel being invented here. I see it being expanded.

Toyota makes a car, does that mean that Ford can't or shouldn't?

Seasoned Linux users need to slow down for a moment and realize that although many distros out there are easy for whatever reason, there's not one distro easy for someone crossing over from windows. More than 98% of Windows users are lucky enough to know how to turn on their own computer, let alone installing something. And they've used their computer to get online and use messengers, chats, Pogo games, and so on, not knowing a damned thing about the software or hardware.
    Now hold that thought and take one of those people and toss them over ANY Linux CD and guess what? .. exactly

His project is good because there are more than 80,000+ web sites out there with tips and tricks and information on Windows. How many do you see out there for any Linux distribution? .. let alone VL.

stretchedthin, I highly applaud the efforts,time, and everything involved. I encourage you to continue, fine tune it, and expand on it.

[stretchedthin]

There's is no reason that your efforts cannot be integrated directly into the official VL wiki, and every reason that they *should*. Your written words are essentially an update to the VL documentation, ...

I would agree with cait.  Move your efforts to the official wiki and docs; create your verbal and visual tutorials; and create a copy of the data on opensourcebistro as you move along.

Ken,
I second Newtor and Caitlyn --- perhaps having your own site gives you more flexibility, but at the very least, make links in the VL wiki each time you have a new item.  There's another aspect: I don't know how much bandwidth or storage the VL site has,  ...

Please do help on the wiki --- it needs the attention, especially since a new release is on the horizon. 
thanks for your efforts,
- Howard in Florida
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd be very happy to add to the How to Wiki.  I can just link directly to the tutorial I mention in the wiki and I'll carry the bandwidth.  Does that work for you as well.  Or were you thinking in another direction.

[stretchedthin]

Seasoned Linux users need to slow down for a moment and realize that although many distros out there are easy for whatever reason, there's not one distro easy for someone crossing over from windows. More than 98% of Windows users are lucky enough to know how to turn on their own computer, let alone installing something. And they've used their computer to get online and use messengers, chats, Pogo games, and so on, not knowing a damned thing about the software or hardware.
    Now hold that thought and take one of those people and toss them over ANY Linux CD and guess what? .. exactly

Thanks Masta;

Your scenario, is very close to my motivation for creating the site.  I'm a manager of a big box retailer that carries computers.  You may know there is no money in selling computers or laptops themselves these days, so retailers are putting more focus into selling technical services.
As an experiment I started offering dual boot computers set up for purchase out of my store.  So someone shopping for a new computer could have two OS's instead of one. There was an additional fee to cover the tech's time, but they sold.  They actually did very well, and then the phone calls started.  I had to discontinue, because my staff was not trained for this and I had limited knowledge myself at the time (Just slightly less limited now.).  This was using one of those "user friendly" distro's right from the top of the Distrowatch listings.
So the idea was born to create a site, that could be placed as a link on the computer when we do the set-up.  I figure in about a year I'll try it again.  What I learned was you can not eliminate the questions no matter how user-friendly your design, but maybe you can make it very easy to get the answers.

[GrannyGeek]

I think video tutorials and how-to's are a great idea. Seeing it done is easier than reading how to do it.

I think we're all agreed that the information on this site should be integrated with the VL wiki and the docs.

Speaking of the VL wiki, I have no idea how to find it. This is true of many wikis. We need to have a much more obvious link to the wiki.
--GrannyGeek

[caitlyn]

Ken,

One thing I probably didn't express well is that I have no objection to your video or your concept.  My objection is strictly to doing it as a separate site.

Masta,

My problem with splitting VL resources all over the place is that it makes it harder for newcomers to find.  If Ken contributes to the mainline documentation, whether it's his video tutorial or other updated docs, it's more likely to do the most good.

[metvas]

Hi All:
I second Cait why have a seperate site when the composiiton of our existing docs is good. Laganon the current keeper of the docs would I am certain appreciate some help on our site. We have enough bandwidth for all of this just do not agree with the external link idea. Maybe you and Laganon should discuss this first. I will have some ideas for you after that discussion you can think about.Thanks for the effort looks good.
Regards
Darrell

[stretchedthin]

Developing this as a second site began simply because it allowed me to gain experience with ideas I was just experimenting with.  A limited test market of just myself, were I could keep what I thought was good and do away with what I thought was bad.  Also, I didn't want any negative aspects, poor video design, website quality extra, or just bad content to have any direct reflection on VL.

I agree, talking with lagagnon would really be the next step.  Integrating this idea of video tutorials seamlessly may take a bit of work and he would know.

As you might imagine, while you work on something like this your mind begins to conjure up all kinds of ideas.  Some benefits I saw from having a second site came in the form of marketing.

1. If Opensourcebisto.com plastered it's video's of Vector Linux all over Youtube then Vector gets all the advertising without looking like it is blatantly self promoting.

2. If Opensourcebistro.com starts getting hits on Google for search words like "Learn Linux the easy way" or "100 of Linux Video tutorials" it will be Vector Linux that people will be downloading because that is the distro featured.

3. An outside site specializing in video tutorials can attract people who are interested in learning Visually, it can market itself as a great video resource for learning linux.  Then simply as a matter of course, those people download Vector because that is now what they know.

Well that's how my mind wandered.

On the other hand...

Working internally would get more people involved more quickly.
I would have the privilege of working with people more knowledgeable then myself.
It would be more likely that a link to the tutorials could be incorporated directly onto the desktop.
Distrowatch and other review sites would be more likely to mention the extra effort VL is making to educate for ease of use.
Plastering Youtube would still be an option, done with some tact.

I like both sides, and yes I would be happy to correspond with lagagnon.

[rbistolfi]

I just wanted to jump in to say that I like the videos, its good to have different kind of resources and I am sure many will find a use for them. I would like to see them integrated with the rest of the VL resources. Even MIT uses videos for training

[Windozer]

Speaking of the VL wiki, I have no idea how to find it.

GrannyGeek,

At the near the very top left corner of the page you're reading now, click 'visit our home page'
Then scroll down to the bottom and look in the rounded blue box of links, under 'community'

You can also get to it from that same home page via 'community' tab, then 'knowledge center' then 'how-tos'

Indeed - it would seem that the link to the wiki needs to be bubbled up and made more obvious.

- H

[Masta]

Maybe I am a bit misunderstood or am misunderstanding something myself. However, I wanted to express that from my reading interpretation, It seemed more like shooting down and "stick with this" than it did anything else.

I can agree that maybe some help with the wiki is good.
I can't agree that it should "just be" the wiki and no web site alternative.

Things aren't about to be scattered about the web. The wiki should be maintained as normal and updated as needed. If the web site has something that the wiki doesn't (perhaps other than video), then the wiki needs to incorporate what it is lacking. That of course would be VL's responsibility. By this, we have more than just one place to get information, even if either have slight differences in it's informational content.

Mention "wiki" to a windows user as I've previously described and you're certain to get the WTF? They have no clue what that is (the majority doesn't, go do your own test and see for yourselves). Mention a "web site", and they're on it like flies on ...

If one is wanting to help out on the wiki, I say GREAT, and TY. We all know more good help is better and needed. But I still say the web site idea along with the wiki is a good thing, and it should be continued.
                However the "linking" goes or whatever, that certainly needs to be talked and figured out. Tossing in links that go back and forth on specific information wouldn't be good, but tossing in a link to "further" or "other" information might be the way to go.

It isn't splitting resources. It is a web site covering information that may or may not be in the wiki. This doesn't just help as an extra/additional resource, it helps in advertising, promotion, and other things mentioned already. The pro's outweigh the con's on this idea.

The heart of my point is that far too many times in these forums someone comes up with an idea. Others seem to bring it down or steer it in a direction where it is not as useful as the original idea intended. Instead off trying to steer it or bring it down, be a bit thoughtful and try sending in ideas which could improve the idea, as well as benefit whatever it is that you were thinking of.
Just my 2cents