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Author Topic: You're killing me with little problems.  (Read 2274 times)
LanceHaverkamp
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Posts: 41


« on: April 25, 2009, 07:22:29 pm »

I'm looking long & hard for something to replace my prior KDE system.  I've used Mepis, Debian, Kubuntu over the years; plus a little mandrake/mandiva.  I've been running 5.9 KDE/SOHO for a couple of days now.  It's really fast and nothing's locking-up; but you're killing me with little problems:

* CUPS, off by default & not asked to turn-on at install.  (fixed now, but an unexpected pain in the rear)
* Kgpg, completely missing from kdeutils
* LyX, installs but doesn't run--missing dependencies
* MyPasswordSafe, not in repo's
* Gizmo (telephony), not in repo's, plus missing (or renamed) dependencies
* TrueCrypt, not in repo's
* pidgin-encrypt, not in repo's

I use all of these programs daily, except TrueCrypt (which I only use on-the-road).  I'm neither a developer nor a Linux hobbyist.  I'm an end user, and have no desire to "play" with a distro to get it to work.

Just a heads-up on why I probably won't stay with Vector, no mater how much faster & more stable it is than kubuntu or debian.

Lance
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hata_ph
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 3257


-- Just being myself --


« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 01:37:41 am »

Quote
* LyX, installs but doesn't run--missing dependencies

I package LyX for VL6. Pls let me know what dependencies is missing? What is the error message?
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LanceHaverkamp
Member
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Posts: 41


« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 08:19:39 am »

Quote
* LyX, installs but doesn't run--missing dependencies

I package LyX for VL6. Pls let me know what dependencies is missing? What is the error message?

Thread continued here: http://forum.vectorlinux.com/index.php?topic=9454.0
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lagagnon
Global Moderator
Vectorian
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Posts: 1922



WWW
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2009, 08:32:30 am »

We're not "killing you with little problems" Lance. Your killing your own experience with VL by being somewhat impatient, not posting in the correct forums and being negative rather than suggestive. Someone will package those apps for you if you request them in the appropriate forums.
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"As people become more intelligent they care less for preachers and more for teachers". Robert G. Ingersoll
LanceHaverkamp
Member
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Posts: 41


« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 12:58:50 pm »

We're not "killing you with little problems" Lance. Your killing your own experience with VL by being somewhat impatient, not posting in the correct forums and being negative rather than suggestive. Someone will package those apps for you if you request them in the appropriate forums.


Hi Lagagnon,

Some of that I will definitely accept, and I hope you understand why:

Impatient? yes!  End users are impatient.  We don't want an 'experience,' for us an operating system & software are tools, plain & simple.  All we want to do is use the tools to accomplish our work.  Like a staple-gun or a photocopier, either the tools work as expected or they don't.  End users are a completely different animal than the typical Linux enthusiast or hobbyist. We don't enjoy tinkering with config scripts to make them work better.  We can't wait for a volunteer packager (as great as they are) to have the time to build a package and test it for a week or two, because we have an employer or a client expecting a project completed by the end of the day.  If we're accustomed to pulling-up a program in [insert name of another distro here] and having it work; then realizing that the program you need is not even compiled for [new distro].  That's a huge problem that could cost you thousands of dollars if it isn't fixed immediately for your client's project.  So yes, we end users are an impatient lot, but that's the difference between producing a do-it-yourself distro like slackware or gentoo, and a polished ready-to-use distro like Vector, Mepis or any of the "enterprise" Linux's...the expectation bar is much higher.

Wrong forum? Actually I did post missing & needed package requests to the right forum as soon as I found it.  This posting was merely a "here's my experience" wrap-up.

Being negative?  This post was negative, but this post was not a request for help.  I was explaining why I'm finding it near impossible to use Vector despite its having some really good features.  My requests for assistance in the respective support forums, were basically neutral & polite.  Granted, probably not cheery, but I am reporting problems.

I applaud your enthusiasm & eagerness to defend your team.
I really do hope to get Vector KDE to run what I need to run as I do like it better than the alternatives, but I also need a running box first thing Monday morning...be that Lenny, Hearty or Vector.

Lance

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M0E-lnx
Administrator
Vectorian
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Posts: 3181



« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2009, 03:15:54 pm »

I'm sorry dude, but if you are comapring a linux dostro to a staple gun you probably should not be using linux at all. period.
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LanceHaverkamp
Member
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Posts: 41


« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2009, 03:46:44 pm »

I'm sorry dude, but if you are comapring a linux dostro to a staple gun you probably should not be using linux at all. period.

Thank you M0E, for exactly illustrating my point!  You are a Linux enthusiast, and that's great--you live for this stuff!

On the other hand, I make a living with this stuff...writing copy, designing ads, editing photographs; but never writing code, hardly ever hacking a script, and avoiding the command line like the plague.  Not only should I be using Linux, I have been daily and exclusively, since switching cold-turkey in back in 2003.

Like it or not, Linux has "users" now (and has for several years). 

Lance
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hata_ph
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 3257


-- Just being myself --


« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 05:39:25 pm »

Hold on all. Hope this will not get into another fight about who is right and wrong. I do understand it is hard for non-experiences users like LanceHaverkamp to spend time to modify VL as they want. What normal computer users need is to settle the tasks with ease and result. But VL have not reach that point where it is 100% so called ready-to-use for your average users. If you need that kind of support i would suggest other distro like ubuntu (for open source) or windows (even better support, if you are willing to pay the price). Ubuntu have must larger group of support team compare to VL and windows have even more. Linux is about choices and that is the motto of VL. VL is maintained by few group of your so called hobbyist that spend their free time doing their job to make VL better. Lack of manpower and resources cannot be an excuse for the lack of support but it do hinder the progress of making VL even better. I hope you can understand that.

PS: I do hope what I say will not offended anyone and hinder them from trying VL in the future. Smiley
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bigpaws
Vectorian
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Posts: 1850


« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 06:26:20 pm »

Quote
We don't enjoy tinkering with config scripts to make them work better.  We can't wait for a volunteer packager (as great as they are) to have the time to build a package and test it for a week or two, because we have an employer or a client expecting a project completed by the end of the day.

Testing a new distribution or OS version would be the best thing to try in such a small time frame.

Quote
That's a huge problem that could cost you thousands of dollars if it isn't fixed immediately for your client's project.

That is the real problem. You the end user demand Vector for free. So you can make you living
by people paying for your projects, where do you put anything into this?

Your statements are informative, but not too far from a flame.

I am not a Linux enthusiast. I make a living supporting small businesses, by providing custom solutions. Using
any OS that fits the problem.

Your request that Gizmo is not packaged when the license does not allow redistribution. If it can not be distributed are you asking them to ignore that limitation?

I have tried alot of distributions. None are perfect. I hope that this may be the distribution for you. Looking at
your other posts it appears that you are getting things resolved.

Good Luck

Bigpaws





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GrannyGeek
Packager
Vectorian
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Posts: 2567


« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 07:08:20 pm »

One of the strong points of Linux is that there is lots of choice. Not every distro is right for every user. If you need to have every imaginable piece of software either installed with the ISO or in the distro's repos, VectoLinux is not for you.

I am much closer to being a user than an enthusiast. I don't know how to write code and have zero interest in learning how. I'm happy to use scripts written by someone else, but I can't write one myself and don't want to learn how. I prefer to use a GUI most of the time, but I don't avoid the command line like the plague. Sometimes the command line is the easiest and quickest way to do something.

What I like about VectorLinux is the quickness, the stability, and the way it lets me set up the system I want--no more and no less. VectorLinux deliberately releases an ISO that fits on one CD. To include all the software  a "user" would want would make VL too large to fit on one CD. VL wants installation to be easy. If all the software a user could want is included in the ISO, a user would either have to install everything or go through a list and pick individual packages or groups of packages. That makes installation more complicated for a user because until you've used Linux for a while, you probably don't know what packages you want.

We'd all like to have more packages in the repos, but VectorLinux is a community effort and most of the work is done by volunteers who receive no money or perks for their efforts. If a user can't accept this reality, he or she should go elsewhere. VectorLinux does not have a big company or big money behind it like Fedora, SuSE, or the Ubuntus do. What we do have is a wonderful community of helpful people who care enough about Linux to spend time making VL as good as we can.

VectorLinux doesn't forget that some people have old or substandard hardware so it provides a distro that can add new life to old systems that would otherwise become doorstops and little else. At the same time, VL can add a little "kick" to newer hardware because being lean is a goal and "lean" is good for new hardware, too.

Because VL doesn't make decisions for users and shield them from what goes on under the hood, a VL user can learn about *Linux*, not just how to click on an icon and have the distro do everything for you. I prefer it this way and while I'm in no way a Linux expert, I'm very comfortable in Linux and am not intimidated when the automatic tools run into a snag.

I appreciate your needs but the fact is that VectorLinux cannot provide them in the way you want. We all know perfectly well what the "users" you describe want. The Vector team is always working to make things easier without de-Linuxing VectorLinux. The volunteer packagers do the best they can within the time they have to fill package requests. And there's nothing to prevent a USER from taking responsibility for finding a program outside the repo and installing it (as you can do for Adobe Reader, Picasa, Google Earth, RealPlayer, and other programs that are not open source). It's even possible for a USER to learn to compile something they want. It's often an easy process. Even I've done it!

If this doesn't appeal to you, look elsewhere. I say that with no anger at all. There is no one-size-fits-all in Linux.
--GrannyGeek
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Registered Linux User #397786

Happily running VL 7 Gold on  a Sempron LE-1300 desktop (2.3 GHz), 4 G RAM,  GeForce 6150 SE onboard graphics and on an HP Pavilion dv7 i7, 6 gigs, Intel 2nd Generation Integrated Graphics Controller
LanceHaverkamp
Member
*
Posts: 41


« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 07:32:17 pm »

Quote
That is the real problem. You the end user demand Vector for free. So you can make you living
by people paying for your projects, where do you put anything into this?

You're right, it has always been the problem & always will be the problem.  Linux is GPL'd.  GPL is a philosophy, not a business model.  A philosophy I agree with, but a philosophy none the less.  And it is unfortunate that more people who don't code don't do more to give back in other ways.

Quote
Your statements are informative, but not too far from a flame.

Oh trust me, they're nowhere near a flame...I'm just typing with enthusiasm.   Grin

Quote
Your request that Gizmo is not packaged when the license does not allow redistribution. If it can not be distributed are you asking them to ignore that limitation?

Debian has a tackled that type of problem pretty well in the past, mostly with one of these two approaches:
1) Build a package that gets the official version from the official server, plus all the dependencies, then converts it into a working Vector installation.
2) Contact the other company and help them issue an official Vector/Slackware version.

Quote
I have tried alot of distributions. None are perfect. I hope that this may be the distribution for you. Looking at
your other posts it appears that you are getting things resolved.

I hope so too, the more 'proprietary' software is going to be a necessity for any business user: Adobe Reader (not just kpdf), Picasa etc.  So far so good, my earlier dire predictions may have been premature!

Thanks again,

Lance
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retired1af
Packager
Vectorian
****
Posts: 1263



« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2009, 08:34:02 pm »

And people wonder why I got out of IT! **banging head on desk**
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